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Which one? How do you know? Show me where it says which Spyder is 'the Spyder' or where it says you can nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
One spyder will have the formation benefits granted to it like any other buff and like anything else it needs to be kept track of. No special rule needs to implement book keeping.
So, in other words, no rules exist to select a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
If you having nothing to tell you how to or that you can, how is a Spyder being selected?
My argument is standing uncontested here because it has ALL THE RULES
Like the rule that allows you to select a Spyder? Huh, but no rules exist for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:03:49
BLADERIKER wrote: As per formations on page 121 "BRB" "Unless stated other wise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation."
Also as per the Necron Dex, Page 93. Unit Composition= 1 Canoptek Spyder. Thus there is not a Unit of Spyders Ever as the composition is only one before upgrades are taken for the whole unit.
So one spyder is a Unit.
So yeah I think that works.
The problem with your analysis is that you are quoting the unit's rules. 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders starts with just 1 is not in question.
What is at the heart of this, is the formation states 1 Canoptek Spyder not 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders.
You will also notice the the Datasheet is titled "Canoptek Spyders" plural not "Spyder" singular as listed in the formation.
1 Canoptek Spyder is 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders, or is this wrong?
Yes and No. A unit of Spyder can consist of just 1 model, true, but so can 3 spyders make up one unit or it could be 3 units or 2 units of 1 and 2 spyders.
Per the rules Formations add units. Can you adhere to the rules?
Which one? How do you know? Show me where it says which Spyder is 'the Spyder' or where it says you can nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
One spyder will have the formation benefits granted to it like any other buff and like anything else it needs to be kept track of. No special rule needs to implement book keeping.
So, in other words, no rules exist to select a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.
If you having nothing to tell you how to or that you can, how is a Spyder being selected?
It tells me specifically to use page 93 which I do. Note how I follow rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:03:46
Bojazz wrote: Lets compare it to another formation from the same codex. The Judicator Batallion. It lists
1 unit of Triarch Stalkers
2 Units of Triarch Praetorians.
Triarch Stalkers come as a single stalker by default, yet this formation specifies that you may take a unit of them. This shows that one spyder means one spyder, and one unit of spyders means one unit of spyders.
Even the wording in the special rule changes to "a stalker from this formation" rather than "THE stalker from this formation". It's glaringly obvious when you're allowed to take more than one of something.
Noted, and GW has never in the past let a mistake go to print.
I would like to Point out that the wording for Scarab Hive Also uses the wording "The Spyder" for adding bases to the Scarabs so if I have three Spyders each within range of a unit of scarabs how do I resolve this?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:05:56
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, but what rules allow you to choose a Spyder from the 2 or 3 you've taken to be 'the Spyder'?
So far, none (and that's because there are none)
So have your 3 Spyders, but then you're gaining no benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
By that logic there is no benefit for Scarab Hive as it calls out that "The Spyder" adds bases to a Unit of Scarabs. even if there is a unit of 2-3 Spyders.
Bojazz wrote: Lets compare it to another formation from the same codex. The Judicator Batallion. It lists 1 unit of Triarch Stalkers 2 Units of Triarch Praetorians.
Triarch Stalkers come as a single stalker by default, yet this formation specifies that you may take a unit of them. This shows that one spyder means one spyder, and one unit of spyders means one unit of spyders.
Even the wording in the special rule changes to "a stalker from this formation" rather than "THE stalker from this formation". It's glaringly obvious when you're allowed to take more than one of something.
Noted, and GW has never in the past let a mistake go to print.
I would like to Point out that the wording for Scarab Hive Also uses the wording "The Spyder" for adding bases to the Scarabs so if I have three Spyders each within range of a unit of scarabs how do I resolve this?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, but what rules allow you to choose a Spyder from the 2 or 3 you've taken to be 'the Spyder'?
So far, none (and that's because there are none)
So have your 3 Spyders, but then you're gaining no benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
By that logic there is no benefit for Scarab Hive as it calls out that "The Spyder" adds bases to a Unit of Scarabs. even if there is a unit of 2-3 Spyders.
The first sentence of 'Scarab Hive' states that 'each Canoptek Spyder can use this special rule', covering this. (You do it once for each Spyder in the unit)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:09:47
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, but what rules allow you to choose a Spyder from the 2 or 3 you've taken to be 'the Spyder'?
So far, none (and that's because there are none)
So have your 3 Spyders, but then you're gaining no benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
By that logic there is no benefit for Scarab Hive as it calls out that "The Spyder" adds bases to a Unit of Scarabs. even if there is a unit of 2-3 Spyders.
Not exactly because every Spyder has that rule not just one from the unit
I don't really see what the debate is here.
RAW you are allowed one Spyder in the formation
RAI clearly intends for there to be one Spyder in the formation.
BLADERIKER wrote: I would like to Point out that the wording for Scarab Hive Also uses the wording "The Spyder" for adding bases to the Scarabs so if I have three Spyders each within range of a unit of scarabs how do I resolve this?
All three of the spyders have the scarab hive special rule. They can all use it. "The Spyder" is whichever spyder's scarab hive you are currently resolving. This is clearly outlined in the rule itself.
Alright, I've provided rules quotes, wording differences between army list entries and model names, differences between similarly worded formations, and supportive text from special rules, and all you keep saying is "nope! p93 has a whole unit on it! the rulebook says units!"
If you're that hell-bent on taking three spyders, then go ahead and take three spyders, I'm done repeating myself. I imagine most people who've read the codex will disagree with you about it, but then again that's just a gut feeling.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, but what rules allow you to choose a Spyder from the 2 or 3 you've taken to be 'the Spyder'?
So far, none (and that's because there are none)
So have your 3 Spyders, but then you're gaining no benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
By that logic there is no benefit for Scarab Hive as it calls out that "The Spyder" adds bases to a Unit of Scarabs. even if there is a unit of 2-3 Spyders.
Not exactly because every Spyder has that rule not just one from the unit
Sure, and 1 Spyder in this 3 Spyder unit would have the formation benefit. And the rules have zero problem with that. Otherwise feel free to find in the rules a problem with that.
I have added 2 spyders to the unit by following RULES!
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, but what rules allow you to choose a Spyder from the 2 or 3 you've taken to be 'the Spyder'?
So far, none (and that's because there are none)
So have your 3 Spyders, but then you're gaining no benefit from 'Adaptive Subroutines'.
By that logic there is no benefit for Scarab Hive as it calls out that "The Spyder" adds bases to a Unit of Scarabs. even if there is a unit of 2-3 Spyders.
Not exactly because every Spyder has that rule not just one from the unit
MonumentOfRibs wrote: I don't really see what the debate is here.
RAW you are allowed one Spyder in the formation
RAI clearly intends for there to be one Spyder in the formation.
The formation refers to page 93 which has the canoptek spyder army entry list
The formaton has "no restrictions"
The army entry list has options which you are permitted to take
On the options is the option to add 1-2 additional spyders.
No rule is blocking that permission!
I suggest you modify your sense of RAW versus RAI here because so far no one has come up with any rule to block this clear chain in the rules!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though?
You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:14:45
As I said earlier, the first sentence of 'Scarab Hive' state that 'each Spyder can use this special rule' before it goes on to explain how a Spyder can use it.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though?
You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
Again, how do you determine which one gains the benefit? Typically you'd be told to nominate one, 'Adaptive Subroutines' doesn't say such a thing.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though?
You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
Again, how do you determine which one gains the benefit? Typically you'd be told to nominate one, 'Adaptive Subroutines' doesn't say such a thing.
So they decided to do this in an atypical way. I will rest my argument on the rules provided thank you.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though?
You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
Again, how do you determine which one gains the benefit? Typically you'd be told to nominate one, 'Adaptive Subroutines' doesn't say such a thing.
So they decided to do this in an atypical way. I will rest my argument on the rules provided thank you.
Again, what rules? You can't just say you have rules as proof and then not present them to us (thereby not proving anything to anyone but yourself)
If you have these so-called rules as proof, maybe you should have initially replied to me by presenting them, instead of dodging or giving me a not-answer?
I can see both sides of this argument, and Alas GW has given Overly Clear (Sarcasm) Formation/Unit/Rule entries which cannot ever (More sarcasm) be misread or misinterpreted.
And yes I can see where the Op's prospective lies.
However, let us consider that in the GK codex's formation there is no mention of a DT of any kind, so would you be able to take DT in that formation as there is no restriction on the formation, or are you prohibited from taking any form of DT due to lack of unit entry in the Formation list of units?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:26:23
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though?
You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
Again, how do you determine which one gains the benefit? Typically you'd be told to nominate one, 'Adaptive Subroutines' doesn't say such a thing.
So they decided to do this in an atypical way. I will rest my argument on the rules provided thank you.
Again, what rules? You can't just say you have rules as proof and then not present them to us (thereby not proving anything to anyone but yourself)
If you have these so-called rules as proof, maybe you should have initially replied to me by presenting them, instead of dodging or giving me a not-answer?
first post in the thread. your argument is wholly inconsequential as you are trying to defeat me on a matter of book-keeping?? Do the rules specify exactly how to keep track of a model that has been psychically buffed? Your argument will need to be better to get any further attention from me.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though? You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
Again, how do you determine which one gains the benefit? Typically you'd be told to nominate one, 'Adaptive Subroutines' doesn't say such a thing.
So they decided to do this in an atypical way. I will rest my argument on the rules provided thank you.
Again, what rules? You can't just say you have rules as proof and then not present them to us (thereby not proving anything to anyone but yourself)
If you have these so-called rules as proof, maybe you should have initially replied to me by presenting them, instead of dodging or giving me a not-answer?
first post in the thread. your argument is wholly inconsequential as you are trying to defeat me on a matter of book-keeping?? Do the rules specify exactly how to keep track of a model that has been psychically buffed? Your argument will need to be better to get any further attention from me.
Every blessing psychic power I know of specify in them who or what they effect. 'Adaptive Subroutines' specifies it effects all units within 12" of 'the Spyder', yet with 2 or 3 Spyders, who do you know who 'the Spyder' is?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:35:20
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Which Spyder, though?
You have yet to show a rule that says which spyder is 'the Spyder' or a rule that allows you to nominate one to be 'the Spyder'.
Your argument is wholly inconsequential. It's just book-keeping like any buff given to a subset of a unit.
Again, how do you determine which one gains the benefit? Typically you'd be told to nominate one, 'Adaptive Subroutines' doesn't say such a thing.
So they decided to do this in an atypical way. I will rest my argument on the rules provided thank you.
Again, what rules? You can't just say you have rules as proof and then not present them to us (thereby not proving anything to anyone but yourself)
If you have these so-called rules as proof, maybe you should have initially replied to me by presenting them, instead of dodging or giving me a not-answer?
first post in the thread. your argument is wholly inconsequential as you are trying to defeat me on a matter of book-keeping?? Do the rules specify exactly how to keep track of a model that has been psychically buffed? Your argument will need to be better to get any further attention from me.
Every blessing psychic power I know of specify in them who or what they effect (target).
'Adaptive Subroutines' specifies it effects all units within 12" of 'the Spyder', yet with 2 or 3 Spyders, who do you know who 'the Spyder' is?
You keep track. Is this not obvious? Why is this even being discussed?
I thought it was clear that the intention was 1 Spyder.
Problem is, in the cryptek edition, there are these Formation cards that show the maxed out Decurion formations and there are 3 Spyders in those. Someone posted a scan of that somewhere here.
So now im not sure anymore what is RAI in this case...
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