Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Envihon wrote:
I have plenty of psychic powers to bring to the table with Grey Knights but I might have to start changing about where I get my powers from.

I am also going to have to increase my Imperial Fist presence it would seem. With such few models, I don't think pure GK or majority of points GK will weather this well, like exampled in the battle report. Dreadknights are definitely something that will have to be taken and along with my Stormraven and Stormtalons. I think I may even outfit my Stormtalons with Typhoon Missile launchers instead of the Skyhammers in order to deny armor rolls. It definitely seems to me that one way to deal with this is to make them rely on RP so that they don't even have a chance to get double rolls on wounds.

Sorry bruh they have a 3+ invuln still. Rate of fire works better against them, but not shooting them at all is probably the best response as a GK player.

Here's something that just came to mind that might work for GK players:

Most "un-fun" GK lists run 2+ DK's, yes? Hang back at first, play cagey, and let the wraiths come to you. You should be out of range of a lot of the Necron shooting at first as well. When the threat of a Wraith charge is imminent, use your shunt to jump over his wraiths and start hitting anything else you can in his backfield. The wraiths will catch up to your DK's next turn, but at least you're dragging them back towards the Necron deployment zone, and taking away their element of board control. If the Wraiths do not double back, well then at least you've got two or more DK's in his lines munching on 'Crons

Without RP, DKs will do the same damage to the new wraiths as they did to the old. Force shooting and S10 attacks will double out wraiths still. With RP buff, they get the -1 for the ID attacks, making them not quite as strong.

Things people tend to forget about:
• the Wraiths still have a 3++ inv save. Combined with their T5 and potential 5/4+ RP, it is a supreme pain.
• the Spyder can potentially grant Adamantium Will to everything close enough to benefit from the RP, so powers might not be as reliable.
• the formation comes with minimum 3 bases of Scarabs, potentially more if the player wants to go crazy with them. By the time they make it into combat, the Spyder would have bumped them up by another 2. Yeah, these things are weak, but unless you're ID'ing them, that's still at least 15 additional wounds (with RP!) that you're going to have to get through, because let's face it, if this formation in running for your lines, no one is going to focus on the Scarabs, they're going to be too concerned with the Wraiths/Spyder. To make maters worse, if they make it into combat with a MC, thanks to the new rules for Entropic Strike, they actually pose a minor threat to high toughness models. By themselves, not too much of a concern. With Wraiths pulling out Rending wounds, and the Spyder contributing as well, every 6 a Scarab rolls is going to be that much more dangerous.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Wraiths are supreme in durability, but their offense isn't as ridiculous. I see wraith spam as less of a threat than a more balanced list that incorporates wraiths or harvests as mobile cover/vanguard/counter assault units while the rest of the army keeps on truckin.

This is the one nice thing about Wraiths - they'll probably take a turn or 2 to kill basic infantry, but dedicated assault units shouldn't have too much trouble fighting back or tarpitting them.

A problem that I encountered in an apoc battle today is to keep up the Spyder with the Wraiths.
Their different speeds can be a problem.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Wraiths are supreme in durability, but their offense isn't as ridiculous. I see wraith spam as less of a threat than a more balanced list that incorporates wraiths or harvests as mobile cover/vanguard/counter assault units while the rest of the army keeps on truckin.

This is the one nice thing about Wraiths - they'll probably take a turn or 2 to kill basic infantry, but dedicated assault units shouldn't have too much trouble fighting back or tarpitting them.

Well I'd agree with you that dedicated CC units won't have a problem tarpitting Wraiths, but in all likelihood that's EXACTLY why a good Necron player with a strong list will bring Wraiths.

As far as fighting back, eh, people have posted the mathhammer. There's not much in the game that's gonna kill Wraiths with any sense of urgency.

Beavetron wrote:
Whenever I play against the necron player in my group, I love it. Bc finally my Kharn/bezerker list really shines. Yes theyre Ld10 but if they take wounds, and you have to remember RP rolls are now considered FnP, which means those wounds still count in CC results.

Eh? Wounds that were annulled by FnP still count as casualties?

Alcibiades wrote:

Beavetron wrote:
Whenever I play against the necron player in my group, I love it. Bc finally my Kharn/bezerker list really shines. Yes theyre Ld10 but if they take wounds, and you have to remember RP rolls are now considered FnP, which means those wounds still count in CC results.

Eh? Wounds that were annulled by FnP still count as casualties?

They do not.

 wuestenfux wrote:
A problem that I encountered in an apoc battle today is to keep up the Spyder with the Wraiths.
Their different speeds can be a problem.

This is definitely one flaw that I saw with the formation as well but how big was the board? I am wondering how much this would effective the Wraiths in a normal sized game.

I don't know what kind of hot, loaded dice you guys are used to playing with/against, but honestly people are pissing themselves over nothing against Wraiths.

It is not that hard to roll 1s and 2s when your not using loaded dice. Even easier to roll 1s 2s and 3s for the reanimation roll you only get for a single turn of the game. I would be more worried about massive squads of Warriors and Immortals than these guys which cost as much as terminators if not more. They suffer from the same problems Vanilla shooty and assault terminators do, even with TH+SS loadouts. They are way to expensive points wise to justify their cost, because it is simple too easy to gun them down.

Even with 2 wounds, which does make them better than a terminator for the same cost, people tend to forget how easy it is fail rolls. You guys need to point me to where I can buy some of the bs dice you use, as apparently I am missing out on something.

 Envihon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
A problem that I encountered in an apoc battle today is to keep up the Spyder with the Wraiths.
Their different speeds can be a problem.

This is definitely one flaw that I saw with the formation as well but how big was the board? I am wondering how much this would effective the Wraiths in a normal sized game.

There were too many models when I charged the Wraiths against GK Termies.
The problem is the charge. If the Spyder is already lagging behind, it will ever more lag behind after a successful charge.

 ultimentra wrote:
I don't know what kind of hot, loaded dice you guys are used to playing with/against, but honestly people are pissing themselves over nothing against Wraiths.

It is not that hard to roll 1s and 2s when your not using loaded dice. Even easier to roll 1s 2s and 3s for the reanimation roll you only get for a single turn of the game. I would be more worried about massive squads of Warriors and Immortals than these guys which cost as much as terminators if not more. They suffer from the same problems Vanilla shooty and assault terminators do, even with TH+SS loadouts. They are way to expensive points wise to justify their cost, because it is simple too easy to gun them down.

Even with 2 wounds, which does make them better than a terminator for the same cost, people tend to forget how easy it is fail rolls. You guys need to point me to where I can buy some of the bs dice you use, as apparently I am missing out on something.

This is an interesting perspective and it was one that I was trying to have and maybe I need to see more batreps before making an actual full decision on such a thing. If there is one thing that is assured, it is the fact that Necrons are sure hard to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
A problem that I encountered in an apoc battle today is to keep up the Spyder with the Wraiths.
Their different speeds can be a problem.

This is definitely one flaw that I saw with the formation as well but how big was the board? I am wondering how much this would effective the Wraiths in a normal sized game.

There were too many models when I charged the Wraiths against GK Termies.
The problem is the charge. If the Spyder is already lagging behind, it will ever more lag behind after a successful charge.

That is interesting and the only way to correct this would be for the Wraiths to move at the same pace of the Spyders but the problem with that would be that your Wraiths won't get anywhere fast. That is an interesting problem, maybe all this worrying is for nothing.

 ultimentra wrote:
apparently I am missing out on something.

what you're missing out on is an understanding of probability. gunning down a unit of t5 3+ models with a tactical squad means nothing except that youve been lucky.

wraithwing was a tournament winning build with the 5th edition codex and wraiths are only better now so im not sure how your comparison to THSS termies is valid.

Who said anything about a Tac squad Natalya? What do you take me for?

Give me a blob 30 Guardsmen with their PCS and I will show you a dead wraith squad. As you invest more points into those wraiths, the number of shots onto them only goes up. And then there's the Pask Punisher...

Roll them 1s and 2s bro. Can't? Let me use your dice then.

 ultimentra wrote:
Who said anything about a Tac squad Natalya? What do you take me for?

Give me a blob 30 Guardsmen with their PCS and I will show you a dead wraith squad. As you invest more points into those wraiths, the number of shots onto them only goes up. And then there's the Pask Punisher...

Roll them 1s and 2s bro. Can't? Let me use your dice then.

Wraiths are vulnerable to VoF (volume-of-fire), but lasguns aren't enough to kill them.

Let's take, for example, a unit of 50 guardsmen firing FRF!SRF!.

150 shots, 75 hits, 13 wounds, only 4W goes through, meaning 2 dead wraiths.

So unless the unit was composed of only 2 wraiths, no, you won't be killing a wraith squad anytime soon with a blob squad. What you need is high-strength VoF to kill them off.

 ultimentra wrote:
I don't know what kind of hot, loaded dice you guys are used to playing with/against, but honestly people are pissing themselves over nothing against Wraiths.

It is not that hard to roll 1s and 2s when your not using loaded dice. Even easier to roll 1s 2s and 3s for the reanimation roll you only get for a single turn of the game. I would be more worried about massive squads of Warriors and Immortals than these guys which cost as much as terminators if not more. They suffer from the same problems Vanilla shooty and assault terminators do, even with TH+SS loadouts. They are way to expensive points wise to justify their cost, because it is simple too easy to gun them down.

Even with 2 wounds, which does make them better than a terminator for the same cost, people tend to forget how easy it is fail rolls. You guys need to point me to where I can buy some of the bs dice you use, as apparently I am missing out on something.

Well it isnt that hard to win some million bucks. Just pick 6 numbers out of 46.

Just because someone has won the lottery somewhere on the planet it doesnt mean it is easy to achieve.

I know, some people dont like or understand mathematics/statistics but every good player knows that maxing the odds to your favor will win you games. In case of the wraiths statistics proof, that they are super durable.Yes, it will happen, that a single guardsman kill a wraith in a single shooting phase while rapid firing, but he has to try it on average 1296 times to achieve this goal. Would you bet your money on him? I wont.

And their offense capabilities? Well, its not super good, but it isnt bad either:

Without counting the charge 6 Wraith kill on average:
1,5 TH/SS Termies/assault phase (so 6 in 2 turns - thats 270 points)
3,5 Tactical Marines (a full squad of 10 in less than 2 turns)
7,33 Guardsmen/assault phase (better make them fearless)

So what we see is: Wraith struggle against cheap tarpits like conscripts, termagants etc as long as they are fearless. BUT firstyou have to catch them (12", ignore terrain) and hope the rest of the necron army doesnt take care of youre tarpits.

 ultimentra wrote:
Who said anything about a Tac squad Natalya? What do you take me for?

Give me a blob 30 Guardsmen with their PCS and I will show you a dead wraith squad.

Give me a lottery ticket and I'll show you a million dollars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I were a Guard player I would be thinking multiple Manticores, which seem ideal, or as close to ideal as you can get against such a target.

What's with all these people that like, don't believe the math or something?

I have yet to see someone offer a good way to neutralize wraiths for less or equal than their point cost that will actually WORK statistically.

Well, other than my suggestion, which was to charge them with your own wraiths. :p

Also yeah a manticore seems workable too.

 jy2 wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
Who said anything about a Tac squad Natalya? What do you take me for?

Give me a blob 30 Guardsmen with their PCS and I will show you a dead wraith squad. As you invest more points into those wraiths, the number of shots onto them only goes up. And then there's the Pask Punisher...

Roll them 1s and 2s bro. Can't? Let me use your dice then.

Wraiths are vulnerable to VoF (volume-of-fire), but lasguns aren't enough to kill them.

Let's take, for example, a unit of 50 guardsmen firing FRF!SRF!.

150 shots, 75 hits, 13 wounds, only 4W goes through, meaning 2 dead wraiths.

So unless the unit was composed of only 2 wraiths, no, you won't be killing a wraith squad anytime soon with a blob squad. What you need is high-strength VoF to kill them off.

I know that's a best-case-scenario, but I'd still take 2 dead Wraiths for 30 Guardsmen.

150 shots is a full 50-man platoon, which is a minimum 330-pts without any upgrades whatsoever yet!

Meanwhile, while the IG player is concentrating their fire on the Wraiths, the Scarab Swarm is sneaking its way up toward his blob and tanks...

 skoffs wrote:
Meanwhile, while the IG player is concentrating their fire on the Wraiths, the Scarab Swarm is sneaking its way up toward his blob and tanks...

Scarab Swarms lost their punch in the new Codex though. Yeah they can still glance on a 6 but they can't melt armor like they used to.

Beavetron wrote:
Whenever I play against the necron player in my group, I love it. Bc finally my Kharn/bezerker list really shines. Yes theyre Ld10 but if they take wounds, and you have to remember RP rolls are now considered FnP, which means those wounds still count in CC results. This leads to Sweeping Advances. Sweeping Advances for everyone.

Anything that can drown them in attacks, DC, Boyz, Bezerkers, etc. have a VERY VERY good chance to sweep them. Ive been able to sweep a unit of warriors reliably with my crisis suits too. Just throwing that out there.

They're fearless, you won't be sweeping anything.

 Envihon wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Meanwhile, while the IG player is concentrating their fire on the Wraiths, the Scarab Swarm is sneaking its way up toward his blob and tanks...

Scarab Swarms lost their punch in the new Codex though. Yeah they can still glance on a 6 but they can't melt armor like they used to.

Still, a blob engaged in combat is a blob that can't shoot (and with as many attacks as Scarabs have, they might actually cause a problem for them).

 Envihon wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
I don't know what kind of hot, loaded dice you guys are used to playing with/against, but honestly people are pissing themselves over nothing against Wraiths.

It is not that hard to roll 1s and 2s when your not using loaded dice. Even easier to roll 1s 2s and 3s for the reanimation roll you only get for a single turn of the game. I would be more worried about massive squads of Warriors and Immortals than these guys which cost as much as terminators if not more. They suffer from the same problems Vanilla shooty and assault terminators do, even with TH+SS loadouts. They are way to expensive points wise to justify their cost, because it is simple too easy to gun them down.

Even with 2 wounds, which does make them better than a terminator for the same cost, people tend to forget how easy it is fail rolls. You guys need to point me to where I can buy some of the bs dice you use, as apparently I am missing out on something.

This is an interesting perspective and it was one that I was trying to have and maybe I need to see more batreps before making an actual full decision on such a thing. If there is one thing that is assured, it is the fact that Necrons are sure hard to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
A problem that I encountered in an apoc battle today is to keep up the Spyder with the Wraiths.
Their different speeds can be a problem.

This is definitely one flaw that I saw with the formation as well but how big was the board? I am wondering how much this would effective the Wraiths in a normal sized game.

There were too many models when I charged the Wraiths against GK Termies.
The problem is the charge. If the Spyder is already lagging behind, it will ever more lag behind after a successful charge.

That is interesting and the only way to correct this would be for the Wraiths to move at the same pace of the Spyders but the problem with that would be that your Wraiths won't get anywhere fast. That is an interesting problem, maybe all this worrying is for nothing.

Worrying for nothing? I don't think so.
The Spyder should be somewhere near the front Wraiths when they charge.
The Wraiths with rerolling charge distance are very fast these days.
As it stands, Spyders can just keep up in the first round and then the connection could get lost.

I really dont see the point, why I should take the harvest formation over normal wraith? Its not as extreme as casting invisibility on a rerollable 2++, but I think wraith are already durable enough. Ok, If you want the spider and some scarabs anyway, it might be a nice pick, but just for the RP?

Best I can say to do is kill the rest of the army, provide target saturation, and play the objectives.... Really the same with any "star" list. Use obsec and get your troops on the objectives and use whatever artillery/tanks you have to kill the rest of his gauss carrying ghouls!

I still think a Daemon Prince of Nurgle with the Black Mace ruins ez-cheese. Hitting on 3s wounds on 2s toughness test, any wraith who took a wound has to pass a toughness test or die, then if you have caused one any model within 3" must pass a toughness test or die. A deamon prince is only 350 points whilst the formation is a massive point sink. You can effectively tie then up with cultists for 2-3 assault phases too since wraiths are ap- so just throw a blob of gretchin of guardsmen, conscripts or zzombies at them.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I still think a Daemon Prince of Nurgle with the Black Mace ruins ez-cheese. Hitting on 3s wounds on 2s toughness test, any wraith who took a wound has to pass a toughness test or die, then if you have caused one any model within 3" must pass a toughness test or die. A deamon prince is only 350 points whilst the formation is a massive point sink. You can effectively tie then up with cultists for 2-3 assault phases too since wraiths are ap- so just throw a blob of gretchin of guardsmen, conscripts or zzombies at them.

Grots are actually one of the worst tarpits. t2, ws2, ini2, no armor, ld7, not fearless or stubborn, cost as much as conscripts. Grots will get swept in no time. But conscripts - yes. Conscripts with priest are awesome. 5+ armor, fearless. Might get rerollable 5+ if you manage to pass ld7.

Daemon prince won't work. How much, 350 pt for a t5 guy with 4 wounds? Relying on toughness tests that will fail only on a 6 is not great. I think your best bet are fearless helcult cultists - they're worse than conscripts but on the other hand, they're always fearless and have an extra attack cause why not. Ideally, you could take wounds on cultists and strike with a DP.

Or a cypher + marines star. Wraiths are not super-killy. You'll just H&R out of combat and get a handy extra 2d6 movement.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Best I can say to do is kill the rest of the army, provide target saturation, and play the objectives.... Really the same with any "star" list. Use obsec and get your troops on the objectives and use whatever artillery/tanks you have to kill the rest of his gauss carrying ghouls!

If we are talking about a real "spam" list then yeah it will probably be nearly nothing but them.

winning by objectives is a thing. i would of won against the 4 spider formations if it didnt turn 7 :/ sour about it lol