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Its not 1 in 6, but there's a chance, a low one, but its there. Even lower for marines in Termi armor, but there's still a possibility.

Sustained fire to the soft armour will stiffen it and slow him down.

Sustained fire to the eyesockets are going to blacken and scorch them, eventually melting through with enough fire.

...From what I have seen.

Bob would prefer something like 'it's not lethal if you hit an armour plate'.

it's important to remember as others have said casualties in table top don't nesscarly mean dead. ESPECIALLY regarding space Marines. Marines are BUILT for durability. they're built to take crippling wounds that would kill or disable anyone else, and then come back.

Now lets think about 40k tabletop

I see where you've gone wrong. This was your first mistake.

Back up and start afresh.


Nothing about the tabletop has ever, nor was ever intended, to represent the fluff accurately. It's a set of rules designed to let two players fight evenly matched battles on neutral terrain (something that never happens in real life). Oh, and more recently, has been tailored specifically to drive sales of plastic toy soldiers.

Yeah..40k tabletop combat reflecting fluff is like Milton Bradly's Battleship game reflecting realistic naval warfare.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yeah..40k tabletop combat reflecting fluff is like Milton Bradly's Battleship game reflecting realistic naval warfare.

Well hold on a sec...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sustained fire to the soft armour will stiffen it and slow him down.

Sustained fire to the eyesockets are going to blacken and scorch them, eventually melting through with enough fire.

...From what I have seen.

Bob would prefer something like 'it's not lethal if you hit an armour plate'.

One or two shot to the eyesockets should be enough, but the chances of hitting that are abysmal, as for the soft armor, you're going to need more shots, but the Marines are going to feel the shots. Good thing there's plenty of armor plates to absorb most of the shots.

Alternatively, decapitate them with longlas loaded with hotshot packs.

Deadnight wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

Uh............. yes it does.

The amount of time spent alone to produce 1 marine is not effecient with current stats. Then you have the issue of cost to magnify the ineffeciency (thrones, not pts)
That's it in a nutshell. If you think there is something worse than the whole few decades to train a scout thing and money thing, then I would love to hear it.
.

No, my issue was you using in game mechanics (ie lasguns having a 20% kill rate against marines) as proof for the unfeasability of marines. The lore has space marines being almost impervious to small arms. Using math from the game is pointless. Hence game =/= fluff.

Now if you were to talk a out the unfeasability of marines in terms of how a few dozen can capture a city, let alone conquer a world, or kill billions of orks etc., or other plain silly stuff, I'm with you. If you talk about the space marine recruitment silliness (you need to be the best of the best of the best of your world, and be, like, twelve years old at that! And then you might have a chance to have a go at their selection process, and you'll still probably fail. How they can recruit enough to maintain only a thousand marines is beyond me, let alone the knowledge that frankly, a thousand is pretty silly- For numbers that would actually be feasible, and would make sense you'd need far more. But marines being silly as they have a one in five chance of dying to a lasgun? Rubbish.

Then again, just my own opinion.

Well, as far as the whole conquering a world stuff, I've always seen space marines as having to be apart of other military forces to accomplish such things, or anything like that (grand scale). Their use in most theatres, in my mind, are essentially deploying them for very high critical objectives - given by theater commanders - and also acting as autonomous branches of the larger imperial force - in vague coordination with the militarum. Their effeciency is so great, it tips the scale, and sometimes dramatically.

As far as them recruiting the best of the best, keep in mind, it is the best of the best among youngins (who could perhaps sometimes surpass the ability of adult warriors), not to be confused in terms that they are truly best among the adults. Also, it isn't just 12 years old, but i think the range is somewhere between 10-15 ish?

Also, mechanics wise, yes, you can gauge with dice, like the 20% kill rate thing, whether or not that is appropriate; being closer or further to lore. Please, explain to me how you this is absolute rubbish? How is attempting to better represent lore via rules a matter you cannot do? I'm not asking for 100% perfection of their portrayal in rules, but definitely something closer than what we currently have.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sustained fire to the soft armour will stiffen it and slow him down.

Sustained fire to the eyesockets are going to blacken and scorch them, eventually melting through with enough fire.

...From what I have seen.

Bob would prefer something like 'it's not lethal if you hit an armour plate'.

One or two shot to the eyesockets should be enough, but the chances of hitting that are abysmal, as for the soft armor, you're going to need more shots, but the Marines are going to feel the shots. Good thing there's plenty of armor plates to absorb most of the shots.

Alternatively, decapitate them with longlas loaded with hotshot packs.

¨

Remember that the eyesockets are still armoured glass. Lasguns do fine surface damage but they struggle with any sort of armour since their shots lack any effective penetration.

BrianDavion wrote:
it's important to remember as others have said casualties in table top don't nesscarly mean dead. ESPECIALLY regarding space Marines. Marines are BUILT for durability. they're built to take crippling wounds that would kill or disable anyone else, and then come back.

That's fine, and I agree with this to an extent but it does not explain the deficit in combat efficiency portrayed - Thrones (Imperial currency), performance and time to produce. This also sort of falls under the classic paradigm: reduced cost, better quality and less time - pick two. For space marines, they essentially have picked better quality twice.

Having greater fortitude to survive injuries would help carry on the war, but it does not fix the issue of guardsman to space marine performance ratio.

kveldulf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's important to remember as others have said casualties in table top don't nesscarly mean dead. ESPECIALLY regarding space Marines. Marines are BUILT for durability. they're built to take crippling wounds that would kill or disable anyone else, and then come back.

That's fine, and I agree with this to an extent but it does not explain the deficit in combat efficiency portrayed - Thrones (Imperial currency), performance and time to produce. This also sort of falls under the classic paradigm: reduced cost, better quality and less time - pick two. For space marines, they essentially have picked better quality twice.

Having greater fortitude to survive injuries would help carry on the war, but it does not fix the issue of guardsman to space marine performance ratio.

I don't understand where you're getting the high cost idea though. Making a space marine costs very little to the Imperium if you think about it. The chapter has the geneseed and the candidates, has the armour and weaponry for them, etc. The process of creating a battle brother takes a lot of time and effort, but very little monetary cost.

 Orblivion wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's important to remember as others have said casualties in table top don't nesscarly mean dead. ESPECIALLY regarding space Marines. Marines are BUILT for durability. they're built to take crippling wounds that would kill or disable anyone else, and then come back.

That's fine, and I agree with this to an extent but it does not explain the deficit in combat efficiency portrayed - Thrones (Imperial currency), performance and time to produce. This also sort of falls under the classic paradigm: reduced cost, better quality and less time - pick two. For space marines, they essentially have picked better quality twice.

Having greater fortitude to survive injuries would help carry on the war, but it does not fix the issue of guardsman to space marine performance ratio.

I don't understand where you're getting the high cost idea though. Making a space marine costs very little to the Imperium if you think about it. The chapter has the geneseed and the candidates, has the armour and weaponry for them, etc. The process of creating a battle brother takes a lot of time and effort, but very little monetary cost.

I'm sure you have heard old farts talk about 'nothing is free', like social security, freedom, social welfare anything. You are going to be paying for it. The Adeptus Astartes are an arm of the Imperium - their government. Just talking about the geneseed biotech, things like maintaining the tools to extract, nurture, store, transport etc should be considered. So even though this is a biological thing, that you would think would be more self sustaining, it obviously is not. Even recruitment is particularly not free, and not something of a expenditure as to blow your nose at; anytime any of those gargantuan ships move around to do anything (like recruitment) it has to cost quite a bit to do. Recruitment may be cheaper in some regards to the process, but it is only a small slice of all of the logistical support cost.

Outside of that very specific sliver of their budget, budget expenditures like space ship, armaments (for both space and ground), food, water and probably a lot more variables to detail I reckon. You could argue that some of these are self sustaining, but the simple truth is that, something somewhere is going to need additional resources to keep going, and cost will be proportional to the value of its use and need, if being pragmatic.

kveldulf wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's important to remember as others have said casualties in table top don't nesscarly mean dead. ESPECIALLY regarding space Marines. Marines are BUILT for durability. they're built to take crippling wounds that would kill or disable anyone else, and then come back.

That's fine, and I agree with this to an extent but it does not explain the deficit in combat efficiency portrayed - Thrones (Imperial currency), performance and time to produce. This also sort of falls under the classic paradigm: reduced cost, better quality and less time - pick two. For space marines, they essentially have picked better quality twice.

Having greater fortitude to survive injuries would help carry on the war, but it does not fix the issue of guardsman to space marine performance ratio.

I don't understand where you're getting the high cost idea though. Making a space marine costs very little to the Imperium if you think about it. The chapter has the geneseed and the candidates, has the armour and weaponry for them, etc. The process of creating a battle brother takes a lot of time and effort, but very little monetary cost.

I'm sure you have heard old farts talk about 'nothing is free', like social security, freedom, social welfare anything. You are going to be paying for it. The Adeptus Astartes are an arm of the Imperium - their government. Just talking about the geneseed biotech, things like maintaining the tools to extract, nurture, store, transport etc should be considered. So even though this is a biological thing, that you would think would be more self sustaining, it obviously is not. Even recruitment is particularly not free, and not something of a expenditure as to blow your nose at; anytime any of those gargantuan ships move around to do anything (like recruitment) it has to cost quite a bit to do. Recruitment may be cheaper in some regards to the process, but it is only a small slice of all of the logistical support cost.

Outside of that very specific sliver of their budget, budget expenditures like space ship, armaments (for both space and ground), food, water and probably a lot more variables to detail I reckon. You could argue that some of these are self sustaining, but the simple truth is that, something somewhere is going to need additional resources to keep going, and cost will be proportional to the value of its use and need, if being pragmatic.

Most Astartes homeworlds are intentionally left feral, there is no necessary infrastructure on these worlds for the Imperium to maintain. A chapter's food and water supplies will come from these worlds, and in the case of some chapters the raw materials to manufacture and maintain their own stockpiles of equipment and munitions come from these worlds as well.

The maintenance and munitions supply are really the only consistent financial drain that I can think most chapters would be responsible for. Most, if not all, chapters are using starships, aircraft, vehicles, armour, and weaponry that is thousands of years old and has been used by many marines before them. Based on the longevity of the marines paired with the even more impressive longevity of their equipment, I would venture that the Adeptus Astartes are actually more cost efficient than the Imperial Guard.

 Orblivion wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's important to remember as others have said casualties in table top don't nesscarly mean dead. ESPECIALLY regarding space Marines. Marines are BUILT for durability. they're built to take crippling wounds that would kill or disable anyone else, and then come back.

That's fine, and I agree with this to an extent but it does not explain the deficit in combat efficiency portrayed - Thrones (Imperial currency), performance and time to produce. This also sort of falls under the classic paradigm: reduced cost, better quality and less time - pick two. For space marines, they essentially have picked better quality twice.

Having greater fortitude to survive injuries would help carry on the war, but it does not fix the issue of guardsman to space marine performance ratio.

I don't understand where you're getting the high cost idea though. Making a space marine costs very little to the Imperium if you think about it. The chapter has the geneseed and the candidates, has the armour and weaponry for them, etc. The process of creating a battle brother takes a lot of time and effort, but very little monetary cost.

I'm sure you have heard old farts talk about 'nothing is free', like social security, freedom, social welfare anything. You are going to be paying for it. The Adeptus Astartes are an arm of the Imperium - their government. Just talking about the geneseed biotech, things like maintaining the tools to extract, nurture, store, transport etc should be considered. So even though this is a biological thing, that you would think would be more self sustaining, it obviously is not. Even recruitment is particularly not free, and not something of a expenditure as to blow your nose at; anytime any of those gargantuan ships move around to do anything (like recruitment) it has to cost quite a bit to do. Recruitment may be cheaper in some regards to the process, but it is only a small slice of all of the logistical support cost.

Outside of that very specific sliver of their budget, budget expenditures like space ship, armaments (for both space and ground), food, water and probably a lot more variables to detail I reckon. You could argue that some of these are self sustaining, but the simple truth is that, something somewhere is going to need additional resources to keep going, and cost will be proportional to the value of its use and need, if being pragmatic.

Most Astartes homeworlds are intentionally left feral, there is no necessary infrastructure on these worlds for the Imperium to maintain. A chapter's food and water supplies will come from these worlds, and in the case of some chapters the raw materials to manufacture and maintain their own stockpiles of equipment and munitions come from these worlds as well.

The maintenance and munitions supply are really the only consistent financial drain that I can think most chapters would be responsible for. Most, if not all, chapters are using starships, aircraft, vehicles, armour, and weaponry that is thousands of years old and has been used by many marines before them. Based on the longevity of the marines paired with the even more impressive longevity of their equipment, I would venture that the Adeptus Astartes are actually more cost efficient than the Imperial Guard.

I really think you are marginalizing the matter of cost when it comes to ' ...starships, aircraft, vehicles, armour, and weaponry that is thousands of years old and has been used by many marines before them...'. Though they are not mass producing things in great scale compared to militarum, their better quality, expensive stuff still gets blown up and thus new things need to be reproduced.

Maintenance and personnel required to operate those gigantic ships are in the 10s to 100 thousands if i remember right - that is a crap ton of resources to support adequately - even if it is a slave like environment methinks.

The second founding (or subsequent) did not make the Adeptus Astartes as a whole have a cost reduction. If anything, since post heresy, it has ramped production due to the level of entropy getting ramped up that the pre heresy didnt have to cope with.

Also, even SM homeworlds kept semi feral, are still defended by a host of orbital and ground forces.

One other thing, It is not a guarantee that armour neophytes get are going to be heirlooms; they may very well get a brand new harness from the mechanicus. I imagine lore may conflict as to how often this happens, and for which chapters. Fabrication like this still occurs from the mechanicus in the 41st.

Even if thrones are inconsequential to space marines, the matter of time as a resource should be considered - its not like this stuff can just be pumped out in a hurry. Heh, When few years matter to planetary defence, just count on the astartes to say, just a few more years and we'll be able....

Game mechanics are not fluff at all. there were some fan made rules with realistic marines going around. Very expensive per model!!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sustained fire to the soft armour will stiffen it and slow him down.

Sustained fire to the eyesockets are going to blacken and scorch them, eventually melting through with enough fire.

...From what I have seen.

Bob would prefer something like 'it's not lethal if you hit an armour plate'.

One or two shot to the eyesockets should be enough, but the chances of hitting that are abysmal, as for the soft armor, you're going to need more shots, but the Marines are going to feel the shots. Good thing there's plenty of armor plates to absorb most of the shots.

Alternatively, decapitate them with longlas loaded with hotshot packs.

¨

Remember that the eyesockets are still armoured glass. Lasguns do fine surface damage but they struggle with any sort of armour since their shots lack any effective penetration.

I highly doubt they're made of glass, more likely ceramics. Mind you, in the modern day we can construct clear ceramics capable of tanking micrometeorites.

 Rippy wrote:
Game mechanics are not fluff at all. there were some fan made rules with realistic marines going around. Very expensive per model!!

Do you mean this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/630442.page

I wrote it. There doesn't seem like much interest on it anymore; I wouldn't want to necro a thread if there is little care for it.

Space Marine chapters are, for all intents and purposes, autonomous.

-Personnel is made up of chapter serfs and servitors, provided by the chapter itself. Maintenance, with the exception of extensive repairs, will be performed by the chapter's Techmarines and servitors. Only the raw materials need to be provided, and in some cases they even provide those for themselves as well.

-Most chapter homeworlds have no defenses other than the chapter itself.

-Of course new equipment is still being made consistently, but based on the fluff Astartes equipment reliably lasts for centuries or even millennia. To illustrate this, the only chapter I can think of that has trouble maintaining its equipment is the Marines Malevolent, and in that case it is because they have alienated themselves from the organization that they rely on. This tells me that Astartes equipment is easily being produced faster than it is being lost, and is therefore not a serious strain on the Imperium.

-A marine's death will often supply the chapter with geneseed for two new marines, a suit of power armour that has at least some pieces that can be reused, and the marine's weapons to be reused.

-Actually Space Marines fill a role of rapid response that the Imperial Guard cannot match. The Guard is an incredibly ponderous organization hampered by the mind-boggling logistics involved, whereas a Space Marine chapter can act on its own and respond immediately to any call for aid.

kveldulf wrote:Now lets think about 40k tabletop and how the above is portrayed...

For the Nth time, the way marines play in the game is not how they behave in the fluff. In the fluff, they carefully select circumstances where a tiny number of marines can defeat a much larger force. They assassinate the governor, they hide in the impervious mountain passes, they hit and run against strategic targets.

In the game, they're forced to line up in the open and get shot down. Marines in fluff would never, ever, ever do that, which is why they appear to be so much stronger in the fluff than on the table. The tabletop rules would give you movie marines if you set up the right kind of situations.

What is your ideal level of interest?

House rule threads are one of a few things. Some people have a unique unit that you have modeled that doesn't have any rules (sniper necrons riding wargs?). They get some input and the thread can be finished.

Then there are lots of theoretical threads. What do you want, a medal? Who's going to give it to you?

I mean, you could have a discussion about what "realistic" means, like is it better to make an army that plays like space marines but is still the size of normal 40k armies, or to make a simulation of marines that makes them an unconventional at like Knights.

If you want to post your ideas and have people tell you how good they are though though, I don't know what is going to give you satisfaction on that. Should someone run out and format your ideas as a codex with original art? Take over their club and enforce them as hous rules?

Does the "Ships are expensive" argument really work when the Imperial Guard also uses big ships with thousands of crew members? If anything, Space Marines probably win in that aspect if only because they don't need to transport hundreds upon hundreds of tanks and thousands of soldiers, which requires giant transport ships and potentially escorts. Also, while power armor may take longer and more effort to produce, it also lasts quite a bit longer than most things the Imperial Guard pumps out. Sure a marine's first new shiny suit may be fresh off the production line, but it'll probably last for decades at the very least unless he's unlucky and gets turned into ashes within his first century of serving.

 Orblivion wrote:
Space Marine chapters are, for all intents and purposes, autonomous.

-Personnel is made up of chapter serfs and servitors, provided by the chapter itself. Maintenance, with the exception of extensive repairs, will be performed by the chapter's Techmarines and servitors. Only the raw materials need to be provided, and in some cases they even provide those for themselves as well.

-Most chapter homeworlds have no defenses other than the chapter itself.

-Of course new equipment is still being made consistently, but based on the fluff Astartes equipment reliably lasts for centuries or even millennia. To illustrate this, the only chapter I can think of that has trouble maintaining its equipment is the Marines Malevolent, and in that case it is because they have alienated themselves from the organization that they rely on. This tells me that Astartes equipment is easily being produced faster than it is being lost, and is therefore not a serious strain on the Imperium.

-A marine's death will often supply the chapter with geneseed for two new marines, a suit of power armour that has at least some pieces that can be reused, and the marine's weapons to be reused.

-Actually Space Marines fill a role of rapid response that the Imperial Guard cannot match. The Guard is an incredibly ponderous organization hampered by the mind-boggling logistics involved, whereas a Space Marine chapter can act on its own and respond immediately to any call for aid.

1. I agree that they are self sustaining, to a degree. As to the cost internally, well I'm sure it varies between chapters as some domains that they are in have different demands strategically. Heck, just because you have techmarine running around fixing stuff doesn't mean you are saving money (resources). He is a resource, and his time matters. If he gets bogged down repairing crap, its going to suffer somewhere else, therefore affecting combat readiness. This is expensive when worlds matter, and can cost the imperium if they rely on SM at all in these domains. So, they better have ways to compensate for this sort of strain, and, they better have the ability to produce and replace gear fast when they need it (there is no fedex in the 41st, so yea transportation is expensive).

2. Your generalization that chapter homeworlds have no defenses is perhaps a bit myopic. Im not sure which chapters you are thinking of, but have you ever though those chapters are probably more of an exception?
Again, whether this is a strain or not, big resources are still being expended. The US doesn't spend their money very well, and some just assume that this can keep going on without repercussions. I tend to believe otherwise. If you think that its okay for governments to carry such principals to the account books, then that's pretty scary, as I would think you are a bit insane.

3. Yes Space marines do recycle. Sometimes they may have some extreme issues recovering their garbage though. In lore and tabletop, this ideal of frugile pride is a different reality when orks, traitors and what not, would be more than happy to scavenge bits from SM corpses. As to how often this happens, look to tabletop - it says there is a lot of recycling, so, there are probably a fair amount of times where they cannot recollect - one would assume.

4. Um.... tempestus? I could elaborate more, but I think that says enough about that. As far as chapters able to jump to the defense of worlds being invaded, they are gonna have to wait on their trash cans to come back before they could even think about filling that order. Seriously at the rate tabletop has it going, even if with a better injury rate recovery, a decade long war will waste the chapter into the toilet and some.

You could argue that SM's are being cost efficient because the lore says so, and I'm telling you, in tabletop, they are not reflected that way. Sure, maybe you could argue that a match on tabletop is apart of a grand scheme of things, that they are affecting a critical global objective, fulfilling particular roles that supposedly no other unit can do but that's corny if you really think about it. Very nominal.

Waving off and assuming: cost is marginal because something is 'self funding' to a degree or that expensive replacement gear 'is not much of a strain', is too simplistic a view for reasons supported from the aforementioned - imo.

So its pointless to continue this thread at all. No matter how many people have told you that the tabletop should not be used as a lore representation of the Space Marines, you keep using it to support your claims.

 Ailaros wrote:

kveldulf wrote:Now lets think about 40k tabletop and how the above is portrayed...

For the Nth time, the way marines play in the game is not how they behave in the fluff. In the fluff, they carefully select circumstances where a tiny number of marines can defeat a much larger force. They assassinate the governor, they hide in the impervious mountain passes, they hit and run against strategic targets.

In the game, they're forced to line up in the open and get shot down. Marines in fluff would never, ever, ever do that, which is why they appear to be so much stronger in the fluff than on the table. The tabletop rules would give you movie marines if you set up the right kind of situations.

I think that the rules should be revised to better reflect their low body count, 'select circumstances' stratagem etc. Also, the only chapter I'm aware of that really does a lot of hit and run are the ravenguard. FYI

As far as the whole, 'they are forced to line up and get shot', isn't the factor I'm pointing out. You cannot cure crappy strategy, and if you bring nothing but foot sloggers and tanks, well be prepared to eat it. So yea, you could play a scenario like that, but SMs should survive (in ratio) better that what the rules would tell us - so I think a lower model count, higher stat line would help with fixing the appearance (but not cure crappy choices by player).

Lastly, your intro " For the Nth time, the way marines play in the game is not how they behave in the fluff." I'm not just talking to you, as this is a forum....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:
So its pointless to continue this thread at all. No matter how many people have told you that the tabletop should not be used as a lore representation of the Space Marines, you keep using it to support your claims.

Uh... no. Have you been reading this thread? I've stated inconsistencies while some others try to fudge it back to 'nah the rules make sense with lore'.

kveldulf wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Space Marine chapters are, for all intents and purposes, autonomous.

-Personnel is made up of chapter serfs and servitors, provided by the chapter itself. Maintenance, with the exception of extensive repairs, will be performed by the chapter's Techmarines and servitors. Only the raw materials need to be provided, and in some cases they even provide those for themselves as well.

-Most chapter homeworlds have no defenses other than the chapter itself.

-Of course new equipment is still being made consistently, but based on the fluff Astartes equipment reliably lasts for centuries or even millennia. To illustrate this, the only chapter I can think of that has trouble maintaining its equipment is the Marines Malevolent, and in that case it is because they have alienated themselves from the organization that they rely on. This tells me that Astartes equipment is easily being produced faster than it is being lost, and is therefore not a serious strain on the Imperium.

-A marine's death will often supply the chapter with geneseed for two new marines, a suit of power armour that has at least some pieces that can be reused, and the marine's weapons to be reused.

-Actually Space Marines fill a role of rapid response that the Imperial Guard cannot match. The Guard is an incredibly ponderous organization hampered by the mind-boggling logistics involved, whereas a Space Marine chapter can act on its own and respond immediately to any call for aid.

1. I agree that they are self sustaining, to a degree. As to the cost internally, well I'm sure it varies between chapters as some domains that they are in have different demands strategically. Heck, just because you have techmarine running around fixing stuff doesn't mean you are saving money (resources). He is a resource, and his time matters. If he gets bogged down repairing crap, its going to suffer somewhere else, therefore affecting combat readiness. This is expensive when worlds matter, and can cost the imperium if they rely on SM at all in these domains. So, they better have ways to compensate for this sort of strain, and, they better have the ability to produce and replace gear fast when they need it (there is no fedex in the 41st, so yea transportation is expensive).

2. Your generalization that chapter homeworlds have no defenses is perhaps a bit myopic. Im not sure which chapters you are thinking of, but have you ever though those chapters are probably more of an exception?
Again, whether this is a strain or not, big resources are still being expended. The US doesn't spend their money very well, and some just assume that this can keep going on without repercussions. I tend to believe otherwise. If you think that its okay for governments to carry such principals to the account books, then that's pretty scary, as I would think you are a bit insane.

3. Yes Space marines do recycle. Sometimes they may have some extreme issues recovering their garbage though. In lore and tabletop, this ideal of frugile pride is a different reality when orks, traitors and what not, would be more than happy to scavenge bits from SM corpses. As to how often this happens, look to tabletop - it says there is a lot of recycling, so, there are probably a fair amount of times where they cannot recollect - one would assume.

4. Um.... tempestus? I could elaborate more, but I think that says enough about that. As far as chapters able to jump to the defense of worlds being invaded, they are gonna have to wait on their trash cans to come back before they could even think about filling that order. Seriously at the rate tabletop has it going, even if with a better injury rate recovery, a decade long war will waste the chapter into the toilet and some.

You could argue that SM's are being cost efficient because the lore says so, and I'm telling you, in tabletop, they are not reflected that way. Sure, maybe you could argue that a match on tabletop is apart of a grand scheme of things, that they are affecting a critical global objective, fulfilling particular roles that supposedly no other unit can do but that's corny if you really think about it. Very nominal.

Waving off and assuming: cost is marginal because something is 'self funding' to a degree or that expensive replacement gear 'is not much of a strain', is too simplistic a view for reasons supported from the aforementioned - imo.

1.Marines aren't exactly low on manpower. They have all the servitors they could ever want, most chapters have more than enough techmarines to easily mantain equipment, and serfs can also aid in repair works. It takes a lot more than the average Space Marine operation to cripple a company or whatever the "standard" sized group is.

2. Even if the IM did provide defense for chapter homeworlds, something they are shown to not do in much of the fluff for many chapters, they're also defending a homeworld for supersoldiers. At most, they would require only initial resources upon choosing a planet since they would already have a fleet. The planet itself, or nearby planets, will provide the natural resources required to begin construction. This is far cheaper than setting up a new world for normal humans, who require a lot more than a base.

3. That still doesn't change the fact that they recycle most of the time. They aren't suffering dozens of casualties in most combat missions, and they aren't losing dozens of bodies that often either.

4. The Tempestus generally can't go where they want and shoot what they want unless an Inquisitor telling them to come with him/her. It would be like if Delta Force or the SEALs decided they were going to invade China without permission.

"I'm telling you, in tabletop"
And we're telling you that the tabletop is anything but congruent with the fluff. On the table, a Tau Ethereal, who is not a warrior in any way, can potentially kill a Marine clad in Terminator armor with a staff. Not even close.

"Uh... no. Have you been reading this thread? I've stated inconsistencies while some others try to fudge it back to 'nah the rules make sense with lore'. "
We must be reading different threads because you brought up the tabletop rules first, and everyone else tried to explain why that's a bad idea, and how the rules make anything but sense with the lore.

"I think that the rules should be revised to better reflect their low body count, 'select circumstances' stratagem etc. Also, the only chapter I'm aware of that really does a lot of hit and run are the ravenguard"
I'd prefer it if I were able to field more than a squad of tactical marines for every hundred or so guardsmen my friend does. Actually, if we revise the rules to match the fluff more, I don't think D6s and a hundred guardsmen would be enough.

pelicaniforce wrote:
What is your ideal level of interest?

House rule threads are one of a few things. Some people have a unique unit that you have modeled that doesn't have any rules (sniper necrons riding wargs?). They get some input and the thread can be finished.

Then there are lots of theoretical threads. What do you want, a medal? Who's going to give it to you?

I mean, you could have a discussion about what "realistic" means, like is it better to make an army that plays like space marines but is still the size of normal 40k armies, or to make a simulation of marines that makes them an unconventional at like Knights.

If you want to post your ideas and have people tell you how good they are though though, I don't know what is going to give you satisfaction on that. Should someone run out and format your ideas as a codex with original art? Take over their club and enforce them as hous rules?

Do you want a medal too for something? I'm not sure as to the need for you to write something like that other than you really don't understand or really care what's being said? .... this thread is digressing too much.....

You said " If you want to post your ideas and have people tell you how good they are though though, I don't know what is going to give you satisfaction on that.". This is a bloody forum after all. If you don't want to hear the free interchange of ideas, then just go ahead and hit alt F4 and exit your browser.

jayko657 wrote:


1.Marines aren't exactly low on manpower. They have all the servitors they could ever want, most chapters have more than enough techmarines to easily mantain equipment, and serfs can also aid in repair works. It takes a lot more than the average Space Marine operation to cripple a company or whatever the "standard" sized group is.

2. Even if the IM did provide defense for chapter homeworlds, something they are shown to not do in much of the fluff for many chapters, they're also defending a homeworld for supersoldiers. At most, they would require only initial resources upon choosing a planet since they would already have a fleet. The planet itself, or nearby planets, will provide the natural resources required to begin construction. This is far cheaper than setting up a new world for normal humans, who require a lot more than a base.

3. That still doesn't change the fact that they recycle most of the time. They aren't suffering dozens of casualties in most combat missions, and they aren't losing dozens of bodies that often either.

4. The Tempestus generally can't go where they want and shoot what they want unless an Inquisitor telling them to come with him/her. It would be like if Delta Force or the SEALs decided they were going to invade China without permission.

"I'm telling you, in tabletop"
And we're telling you that the tabletop is anything but congruent with the fluff. On the table, a Tau Ethereal, who is not a warrior in any way, can potentially kill a Marine clad in Terminator armor with a staff. Not even close.

"Uh... no. Have you been reading this thread? I've stated inconsistencies while some others try to fudge it back to 'nah the rules make sense with lore'. "
We must be reading different threads because you brought up the tabletop rules first, and everyone else tried to explain why that's a bad idea, and how the rules make anything but sense with the lore.

"I think that the rules should be revised to better reflect their low body count, 'select circumstances' stratagem etc. Also, the only chapter I'm aware of that really does a lot of hit and run are the ravenguard"
I'd prefer it if I were able to field more than a squad of tactical marines for every hundred or so guardsmen my friend does. Actually, if we revise the rules to match the fluff more, I don't think D6s and a hundred guardsmen would be enough.

1. Yes... servitors and all the support personnel never suffer casualties. Also, I don't think they have the right, or infrastructure to fabricate things.

2. I just see that as very idealistic, and very dumb for SM's to do. Not sure what fluff you are referring to, but again, I would tend to regard 'them' as the exception.

3. You are correct, but tabletop indicates otherwise.

4. Uh tempestus is not solely attached to an inquisitor. You do have Inquisitorial storm troopers, but they are an offshoot of tempestus scions

5. You said "And we're telling you that the tabletop is anything but congruent with the fluff. On the table, a Tau Ethereal, who is not a warrior in any way, can potentially kill a Marine clad in Terminator armor with a staff. Not even close."

I'm not trying to make absolute perceptions from lore, and absolute guarantees in the rules. I think a better tabletop representation should be in order for SM's - that's it.

6. You said "We must be reading different threads because you brought up the tabletop rules first, and everyone else tried to explain why that's a bad idea, and how the rules make anything but sense with the lore."

Some of the people are bent on rules being rules and fluff being fluff; keeping the two seperate (because of balance somehow being thrown off?). Or, they don't understand that rules can, and without Chaos sorcery, be made to better represent fluff (which I've made a point of). Then you have people skirmishing ideas of lore at me, to justify cost efficiency of marines over Imperial guard use - with point values and lore (and that's digressed).

7. You said "I'd prefer it if I were able to field more than a squad of tactical marines for every hundred or so guardsmen my friend does. Actually, if we revise the rules to match the fluff more, I don't think D6s and a hundred guardsmen would be enough"

One of my previous replies in the thread was to a different thread I had open for a fandex: essentially it puts marines at 75 pts a model, and gives them a better stat line + special rules that give them a fair amount of utility, even against hordes. Toughness 5, 2+ save, 5+ FNP, 3 wounds, semi independant character. If you take an apothecary, then marines within a radius get 'it shall not die' 4+ and FNP is increased. Special Character entries are non existent and instead one takes a SM entry and upgrades with Honors (in order to field a captain, you would need to take the Iron Halo honor, but first he would need, a crux terminatus first - if i remember right).
I fully intend on using this ruleset for a Deathwatch campaign in the future, rather than fantasy flight (may still roll social stats though).

1. If your servitors and support personnel are making repairs to equipment on a battlefield, I think you have bigger issues. Field repairs aside, repairs should be done where you have both protection and equipment. And I'm pretty sure more chapters get new equipment from Forgeworlds in any case, which probably snicker when a order for 100 new suits come in.

2. They also paint themselves bright yellow.

3. I feel like one of us is misunderstanding the other. Potentially me. I apologize if I am.

4. This was more of my fault really. I meant that the Tempestus can't just do whatever they want. Unless an Inquisitor "borrows" them, they're still part of the chain of command. They can't just fly off to the nearest planet under attack like the Space Marines can.

5-7. My issue with making the rules more like the lore, if I'm understanding you correctly, is that it would be rather....difficult and painful for all of the armies. I don't actually play the tabletop nor understand it very well(still learning) but I imagine that of course balance would be thrown off. Marines in the fluff kill guardsmen like they're insects. Like I said, I don't think 100 guardsmen would even close to be enough to being able to fight a single tactical squad. 75 points for a marine still isn't enough when the slightly cheaper guardsmen squad can't even touch them in the fluff without the element of surprise and a big gun.

Honestly i have an issue with the whole scout's thing

Why you would use noob's to gather intelligence and reconnisance is beyond me

It's a role far more suited for more experienced and highly trained soldiers, real world example would be today's special forces

be blood angels

give new aspirants blood of sanguinius (via blood of sang priests)

plop them in growth chamber.

1-2 years later blamo, new space marine ready to go.

I also have problems with the scout thing, I feel several units of snipers (say, 50 marines) could do more damage, with fewer casualties, than a drop pod strike force.