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Dozer Blades wrote:Batreps to follow later this week...

First round vs. Space Wolves
Second round vs. Daemons
Third round vs. Astra Militarum

- end day one

Fourth round vs. Jetseer Council w. Cullexus Assassin
Fifth round vs. Daemons w. Vindicare Assassin

- end day two

Note we used the ETC format for missions so battle points.

Damn brah, you drew some rough matchups. 2 Daemon armies AND a Seercouncil with Cullexus?? All of those lists should have enough Warp Charges to seriously mess with your psychic deathstar, not to mention Daemons generally not giving a damn against grav weapons. Did the Cullexus come into play in a big way in that game? How did you deal with it?

Hope you had a good time though! Looking forward to the BatReps.

I don't want to give away details I'll post later in the batrep versus eldar. If I didn't mention it already that army also had a bastion with an escape hatch.

The Techmarine was definitely a good investment and pulled his weight in most every game.

I'd be interested in your analysis of unit choices since there's some unusual inclusions.

I read jy2's Batreps to help figure out how to optimize the list. You want your ObjSec units coming in later game to make them harder to kill. DraigoStar can do fine on its own for a couple turns. The Stormraven was very useful just about every game and I alwaus embarked the 10 man Strike squad - never broke it into combat squads. Scouts are there to grab objectives - that's pretty much it. The Strike squads are really good IMO. The Techmarine was great for reliably popping armor in mėlee with his servo arm and Hammerhand. Never had to fight a Knight in mėlee though and really glad I didn't.

Thanks, and I just now realized you are running those strikes in a CAD not NSF right? Definitely some nice innovations going on here. You must be a fantastic player btw. A few more questions if you don't mind..

Didnt you miss dreadknights or melta or any of the tools other options besides strikes can provide?

How did you find the salvo psycannons performed? I can see some potential if they are allowed a turn to set up camp.

Interested to hear why you took liber daemonica on the libby. I assume its more for rerolling 1s with gate then anything, but was it worth losing the free primaris?

The techmarine still blows my mind.

Lastly what changes would you make if you were to bring this list to say LVO or similar format tomorrow?

Now I'm really looking forward to these batreps.

NSF does not work with this list.

I don't like DKs because they are a lot of points - you can't take two a big DevCent squad plus I find they can die real quick.

I like Liber Daemonica mostly for the extra Santic power... If you get sanctuary, cleansing flame or the sixth one they are all really good.

Psycannons obviously aren't as good now but can still do some major damage... Helped me drop an imperial knight one game.

I will not be bringing this army to LVO because of the big Nerf to invisibility plus Lynx on skyshields rolling for sixes.

NSF does not work with this list.

Exactly I'm just not used to seeing that approach. Thanks for the taking the time to respond.

You're welcome.

Liber is also good as it allows Draigo to reroll 1's on casting gate.

If I really need gate to go off I will chuck all my dice to cast it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It hurt big time.

Templecon allows a psychic unit to cast the same spell multiple times - the winning list was spamming flickering fire.

Practically an entirely different game under that ruling; you played two (maybe three) armies that flat out wouldn't work without it.

Surprised it still has any traction in the first place--I assume they were using NOVA's FAQ? Pretty much everybody else has moved away from that.

DJ3 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It hurt big time.

Templecon allows a psychic unit to cast the same spell multiple times - the winning list was spamming flickering fire.

Practically an entirely different game under that ruling; you played two (maybe three) armies that flat out wouldn't work without it.

Surprised it still has any traction in the first place--I assume they were using NOVA's FAQ? Pretty much everybody else has moved away from that.

Actually almost everywhere else does it that way too. Both UK tournament faqs and the ETC faq allow for multiple psykers in a unit to cast the same power. ITC faq disallows it, but thats the only one that I know, and even though that covers the gamut of west coast US events from a global perspective it's in the minority. Not calling you out, simply informing.

I was told by several people afterwards the brb doesn't allow it - haven't had time to research it as yet.

Batreps should be coming soon. I was stuck up in the Boston area an extra day due to the snow storm.

STEVE it was great meeting you and playing with ya!

As for the FAQ of multiple units. An IC attached to the unit is the unit plus IC for 2 spells. If 2 IC's form their own unit then that unit would only be able to cast it once.
I didnt see the overpower of it, I nerfed my list as much as I could, no named characters, no formations, no lords of war, no forgeworld. Next year, regardless what I play will have no magic either.

FYI, Steve lost his 2 characters to warp storm table in his 5th round, not my game against him in round 2. I got lucky with misfortune, then flicker fired his devs killing a few. Allowing my DP with bailsword to charge in and ID Severin, Techmarine, Libby and 2 devs, since draigo was to far away to issue a challenge the turn I charged, and farther away for the initial look out sirs. (this was pure luck and taking advantage of it when i could, Steve didnt invul up severin, and he had his cents daisy chained. I had horrors and LOC in position to knock of Cents with misfortune and double FF, to allow the DP to charge right into b2b with Severin, with the tech and liby standing behind him, then the cents daisy chained and draigo in the rear). He challenge with tech, but wounds carry out now. I did 5.

But it was a lot of fun to meet ya Steve, Good luck down the road!

spells and dice utilization.
I average 23 dice, my LOC is flying most the time, and hopefully precog, if not prescience, his FF is for flyers.
4 more units who have FF at str 6, (2 heralds with conjuration locus, and 2 units of pinkies)
So a total of 5 flicker fires, someone mentioned 7 to 9 earlier. Sorry max of 5 with my list.
The 2 lvl 3 Heralds who will roll on div until I have misfortune, at that point, the rolls switch over to Demonology looking for incursion.
The Dp of nurgle is bio, but really only want iron arm or endurance.
Herald of Slannesh makes a single roll looking for invis, but most of the time utilizing shriek or just running her unit into anything and adding a warp charge to the pool.

It was a great game and my only loss for the weekend. I thought the DP was in swoop mode... my mistake.

Yeah as soon as you dont have anything that ignores cover, I just keep him on the ground since you can still Jink for a 2+.

Great game man!, See ya down the road!

Dread-knights are a must my friend. You can take Sicarians in their place but not taking dread-knights is gimping yourself.

No it's not. None of the armies than ran them did well fyi.

Yea the BRB itself says a Psyker Unit cant attempt to manifest the same power more than once. So at most those units would only be able to cast 1 Flicker Fire each per RAW

But tourney rules are tourney rules

And I'll stand by DKs being fantastic units, they just need to be taken in Pairs or more

Two are too expensive for a DraigoStar army. As you realize one is just not enough.

Dreadknights are excellent but this thread has me re-evaluating them, or rather their loadout, and other components of my list. Not saying I'm sold on pagks this edition but they are obviously more viable then some including myself believed.

Tsilber wrote:
STEVE it was great meeting you and playing with ya!

As for the FAQ of multiple units. An IC attached to the unit is the unit plus IC for 2 spells. If 2 IC's form their own unit then that unit would only be able to cast it once.
I didnt see the overpower of it, I nerfed my list as much as I could, no named characters, no formations, no lords of war, no forgeworld. Next year, regardless what I play will have no magic either.

FYI, Steve lost his 2 characters to warp storm table in his 5th round, not my game against him in round 2. I got lucky with misfortune, then flicker fired his devs killing a few. Allowing my DP with bailsword to charge in and ID Severin, Techmarine, Libby and 2 devs, since draigo was to far away to issue a challenge the turn I charged, and farther away for the initial look out sirs. (this was pure luck and taking advantage of it when i could, Steve didnt invul up severin, and he had his cents daisy chained. I had horrors and LOC in position to knock of Cents with misfortune and double FF, to allow the DP to charge right into b2b with Severin, with the tech and liby standing behind him, then the cents daisy chained and draigo in the rear). He challenge with tech, but wounds carry out now. I did 5.

But it was a lot of fun to meet ya Steve, Good luck down the road!

spells and dice utilization.
I average 23 dice, my LOC is flying most the time, and hopefully precog, if not prescience, his FF is for flyers.
4 more units who have FF at str 6, (2 heralds with conjuration locus, and 2 units of pinkies)
So a total of 5 flicker fires, someone mentioned 7 to 9 earlier. Sorry max of 5 with my list.
The 2 lvl 3 Heralds who will roll on div until I have misfortune, at that point, the rolls switch over to Demonology looking for incursion.
The Dp of nurgle is bio, but really only want iron arm or endurance.
Herald of Slannesh makes a single roll looking for invis, but most of the time utilizing shriek or just running her unit into anything and adding a warp charge to the pool.

Thanks for the breakdown. It's definitely an interesting list. Might try something like it soon if I ever muster the gumption not to run Big Bird or Be'lakor

Speaking of, do you think the Big Bird could replace the LOC? I mean if they're both flying they serve very similar functions, but with Big Bird you get all of the Change table, an extra roll at invis (or at the least another Psychic Shriek), warp storm control, and his handy-dandy reroll.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Two are too expensive for a DraigoStar army. As you realize one is just not enough.

Perhaps, Here is my list with 2 dks and the star

Primary GK Nemesis Strike Force

HQ- Librarian lvl 3, force stave, Liber Daemonica, Combi Melta

Troop - Terminators x5: 3 halberds 2 hammers 1 psycannon

Fast attack - Interceptors x10: 2 halberds 2 incinerators

Heavy Support: Dreadknights x2 : Heavy pyscannon/incinerator, Teleporter. Greatsword

LOW: Draigo

Allies Ultramarines

HQ - Tigurius

Troop - Scouts x5

Heavy Support - Centurions x2 + Sergeant: 3 x grav w/amp, Omniscope, Hurricane x3

You are cutting down on the power of the star to fit in the DKs. Your model count is even less than mine and those terminators can die real quick, plus no Draigo which can make the Star not work thus defeating its purpose.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You are cutting down on the power of the star to fit in the DKs. Your model count is even less than mine and those terminators can die real quick, plus no Draigo which can make the Star not work thus defeating its purpose.

Oh did i forget him? He's in there too

Anyways I find more value in the DKs than regular Power armor GK strike squads these days with the psycannon nerf

 astro_nomicon wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
STEVE it was great meeting you and playing with ya!

As for the FAQ of multiple units. An IC attached to the unit is the unit plus IC for 2 spells. If 2 IC's form their own unit then that unit would only be able to cast it once.
I didnt see the overpower of it, I nerfed my list as much as I could, no named characters, no formations, no lords of war, no forgeworld. Next year, regardless what I play will have no magic either.

FYI, Steve lost his 2 characters to warp storm table in his 5th round, not my game against him in round 2. I got lucky with misfortune, then flicker fired his devs killing a few. Allowing my DP with bailsword to charge in and ID Severin, Techmarine, Libby and 2 devs, since draigo was to far away to issue a challenge the turn I charged, and farther away for the initial look out sirs. (this was pure luck and taking advantage of it when i could, Steve didnt invul up severin, and he had his cents daisy chained. I had horrors and LOC in position to knock of Cents with misfortune and double FF, to allow the DP to charge right into b2b with Severin, with the tech and liby standing behind him, then the cents daisy chained and draigo in the rear). He challenge with tech, but wounds carry out now. I did 5.

But it was a lot of fun to meet ya Steve, Good luck down the road!

spells and dice utilization.
I average 23 dice, my LOC is flying most the time, and hopefully precog, if not prescience, his FF is for flyers.
4 more units who have FF at str 6, (2 heralds with conjuration locus, and 2 units of pinkies)
So a total of 5 flicker fires, someone mentioned 7 to 9 earlier. Sorry max of 5 with my list.
The 2 lvl 3 Heralds who will roll on div until I have misfortune, at that point, the rolls switch over to Demonology looking for incursion.
The Dp of nurgle is bio, but really only want iron arm or endurance.
Herald of Slannesh makes a single roll looking for invis, but most of the time utilizing shriek or just running her unit into anything and adding a warp charge to the pool.

Thanks for the breakdown. It's definitely an interesting list. Might try something like it soon if I ever muster the gumption not to run Big Bird or Be'lakor

Speaking of, do you think the Big Bird could replace the LOC? I mean if they're both flying they serve very similar functions, but with Big Bird you get all of the Change table, an extra roll at invis (or at the least another Psychic Shriek), warp storm control, and his handy-dandy reroll.

Not to hi jack the OP thread here. But big bird is only good flying and casting magic. I have tons of magic in my list already. The LOC gets 3 rolls on divination, precognition is great. But with his 2 greater rolls, you are looking for 1,2,3,6 any combination of those he is a beast on the ground, Even if you only get one of those you will also have either a lance shot, or AB/FB in h2h. With his lesser roll i give him the +2 str staff ap4, since hes a MC its ap 2. So pending on rolls for spells and gifts, he goes on the ground and is crazy. One game I had precognition, forewarning, 4+FNP and 3+ armor. So i just kept him grimoired and kept him on the ground. People take faty for his spell versatility, and his reroll of warpstorm and his special reroll a d6. I have versatility in spells with all my other units, the LOC gives me much more punch and is worth giving up the guaranteed warpstorm warlord trait and the single d6 roll. In one of my games, I lost a herald and then half a pink horror sqaud do to number 3 on the warpstorm, on 2 separate turns. IMO, it didn't set me back at all. You just have to adapt more, and play a little more careful when not having big bird.
Most of all I used Bel Akor last year when i won Temple con onslaught, I didnt want to use any special characters this year to challenge myself more. No special, no LoW, no formation, No knights, no forgeworld were my self appointed restrictions. But IMO I love the LoC and would never not use him, i don't think.

I kept him in the air VS. Steve, because A) I was waiting for his flyer to come in so I could misfortune and FF it. B) Vector strike guys that didnt have invul. C) His whole army has force weapons, and even though I double his magic dice just about. I dont want to fluff the dispel roll of force and then lose my warlord.

In closing, Faty just brings a lot of extra. If use him a lot and then stop, you will mis out on his gaurentees. If you dont use him a lot, and play with out him, you never really miss him
Good luck. Follow up please if you try a game with LoC. Just remember it is much less forgiving if you dont have Big Bird and something goes wrong. But Adapt, overcome, and achieve! Hail TZEENTCH!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yea the BRB itself says a Psyker Unit cant attempt to manifest the same power more than once. So at most those units would only be able to cast 1 Flicker Fire each per RAW

But tourney rules are tourney rules

And I'll stand by DKs being fantastic units, they just need to be taken in Pairs or more

Incorrect, a psyker unit is pink horrors, or the seer council. When an IC joins them he becomes part of the unit, but that does not change the fact he is still an IC now in a unit.
But thats neither here nor there, If a tournament rules I can only cast it once per source, It does not change my list 1 bit. I would just have to move an additional unit or the LoC over to get the desired FF off. Even with 23 dice, you are trying to precog the loc, prescience a unit, misfortune, perfect timing, endurance/iron arm the dp, then 1 or 2 or 3 FF's. If their are dice left, im summoning drones anyway.

Yeah sorry, Dozer. It's not everyday I get to pick a top notch Daemon players brain though!

Again thanks for the breakdown. I'll definitely have to give the LoC a shot. I'm probably the worst waffler ever when it comes to Big Bird. I'll finally decide not to use him, then post a list for discussion, or in a BatRep: "You're crazy!" the Internet cries. "You'll never win a tournament without Fatey!" it jeers. Then I think and mope for a bit, and finally put the old lug back in my list. The main reason I keep him around (besides being a decent dakka boat) is for the insurance on the Grimoire because I generally run some flavor of ScreamerStar. If casting it on an FMC though, you can (almost) always jink for a decent save.

So hell with the rest of the internet. I a'int takin' no Big Bird next time

Tsilber wrote:


Incorrect, a psyker unit is pink horrors, or the seer council. When an IC joins them he becomes part of the unit, but that does not change the fact he is still an IC now in a unit.
But thats neither here nor there, If a tournament rules I can only cast it once per source, It does not change my list 1 bit. I would just have to move an additional unit or the LoC over to get the desired FF off. Even with 23 dice, you are trying to precog the loc, prescience a unit, misfortune, perfect timing, endurance/iron arm the dp, then 1 or 2 or 3 FF's. If their are dice left, im summoning drones anyway.

Bolded bit is still up for debate as the IC becomes part of the Unit for all intents and purposes according to the rulebook and becomes a part of that "Psyker Unit", but the restrction is unclear if it applies to an IC, but at least on my coast (West coast of US) hes determined to be part of the unit and subject to the "A psyker Unit cant attempt to manifest a power more than once" bit, so no multiple FF from the same unit

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Yeah sorry, Dozer. It's not everyday I get to pick a top notch Daemon players brain though!

Again thanks for the breakdown. I'll definitely have to give the LoC a shot. I'm probably the worst waffler ever when it comes to Big Bird. I'll finally decide not to use him, then post a list for discussion, or in a BatRep: "You're crazy!" the Internet cries. "You'll never win a tournament without Fatey!" it jeers. Then I think and mope for a bit, and finally put the old lug back in my list. The main reason I keep him around (besides being a decent dakka boat) is for the insurance on the Grimoire because I generally run some flavor of ScreamerStar. If casting it on an FMC though, you can (almost) always jink for a decent save.

So hell with the rest of the internet. I a'int takin' no Big Bird next time

Funny story, after templecon last year, after game 5 my army was out on the table. A 'top notch player' walked by, and kinda critiqued my list "NO Faty?, No Grimoire?, Only 2 scoring troops? OMG you use the Loc, hes Terrible... You will never win a major tourney with that list"
5 minutes later, they announced me as the winner. So don't pay to much attention to what the internet says lol, hell take what im saying with a grain I guess. Its simply my opinion that LOC is superior to Faty, and just that, an opinion.

Back to the OP.

As for Steves list, he did fine with it, and I was kinda shocked he didnt have and DK, but his army was no less deadly. He simply got 2 bad match ups against Deamons. One came in round 2 VS me, but he cleaned did very well in his next 2 games putting him in the top tier going into round 5, then drew daemons again but from what I understand still got the victory. I liked his list, I never seen Severin Loft before so when started picking his spells, I knew I had to bring my A game against him. I just got lucky in shutting down most of his spells, And also threw my hounds in his face, which he did kill eventually, but it took him a bit of time. But any spells, like banishment against them, I had tons of dice to dispel it and dispelled on 4 with that unit.

No problem with multiple discussions !

At Wren - sorry I missed Draigo in your list...

I really liked having the 10 Grey Knights in the Stormraven... they always did well every game.