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Made in us
Furious Raptor






Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codexes. So first I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. Not keep in mind I avoid tournaments like a combination of a clingy X-girl friend combined with the black plague I try to play friendly games. That being said tournaments in this area have an absolute stranglehold so I can't avoid the effect of tournaments (IE the highly competitive atmosphere and the min-maxing list building approach). So it's a bit like doing recreational boxing against Muhammad Ali. Even if he's got both legs and arm tied behind his back and his eye covered, he still knocks you all around the ring and then looks at you with this look that says "Why aren't you trying?"

So, first unit I want to look at: Thousand Sons.
You can also see my analysis of the following units:

Khorne Berzerkers



So 150 points for 4 Thousand Sons with an Aspiring Sorcerer. For that 150 points you get a slightly better then standard Space Marine stat-line, the advantage going to the Thousand Sons LD10 base. Beyond the stat line you get a rather lengthy list of special rules for the unit.

The Sorcerer is bound with the Champions of Chaos (CoC) Special rule, while the entire unit is fearless. The unit automatically has Veterans of the Long War (VotLW), so they have Hatred (Space Marines) which while this sounds nice at first glance, we'll be coming back to it. The unit also have Mark of Tzeentch which gives them a +1 to their Invulnerable save, which when combined with the Aura of Dark Glory wargear that comes with the unit gives them a rather beefy 4+ invulnerable save.

The Sorcerer get a Force Weapon and is a Level 1 psyker. Okay that's note worthy on it's own.

Okay, so 150 points for 5 wounds with a 3+/4++ save. Not exactly horrible. For comparison, 150 points will also get you a 9 Man unit of normal Chaos Marines with an aspiring Champion that has a power weapon and melta bombs while the marines get a bolt pistol and CC weapon, giving them 3 attacks on the charge and 2 if caught flat footed. 5 wounds with a 4++ and a force weapon compared to 9 wounds with a power weapon. It should be noted that the 9 CSMs with that configuration actually come in at 3 points less then the 5 Thousand Sons.

Now for that 150 points the Thousand Sons also get inferno bolts, making their bolters AP3. Okay, that's a nice little marine killer.

However, the unit has some major and unavoidable downsides. The most obvious is it's limited with the Slow And Purposeful special rule, meaning the unit can not run, sweeping advance or fire over watch. Keep these points in mind. I'll be coming back to them.

Less obvious as a limit is the Aspiring Sorceror and his mark of Tzeentch. See Psykers with a Mark of Chaos MUST roll at least once on their patron Gods table. Okay, so he has Mastery Level 1, which means he has to generate his single Psychic power from the Discipline of Tzeentch. Now granted, thanks to Psychic focus he automatically gets the primaris power so he can wind up with 3 powers in total (Force, the Primaris plus the one he generates from the table). Okay, how bad can that be?

Well there's the primaris power, Tzeentch's FireStorm, which is a range 24" random strength between 2 and 7 no Ap blast assault attack that has the chance to inflict a further D3 Strength 3 no AP hits.

-Okay. kind of wonky. But not something I would be under the heading of "Get a kick in the balls". The Random strength is what hurts it as does the lack of any AP.

the 1-2 Result is Boon of mutation, which is a 2" blessing that in theory gives a roll on the Chaos Boon table. To take that test the targeted character must take a S4 no AP hit and survive.

-um... okay. So on it's own you would have to target the Aspiring Sorcerer himself. Otherwise you have to have an Independent Character, with the Mark of Tzeentch join the unit, or otherwise be right next to the Sorcerer while being less then 2" but more then 1" from the squad. yeah... The Boon table is so incredibly hit or miss already that stacking rolls on it just takes 'random' and... well keeps it random.

the 3-4 result is Doom Bolt. a Range 18, S8 AP 1 beam attack that if it causing a vehicle to explode then you roll 2D6 for the range of the explosion.

- okay. an 18" armor killer. That's nice. the Detonate is kind of 'meh' over all since most real threat vehicles are armor 13 so you'd need a 5 to penetrate, and then a 5 to explode it and then get to roll to see how big of an explosion, which on average is going to be 7". Overall good for Rhino Popping before charging what ever chewy morsels were inside it.

the 5-6 result is Breath of Chaos, a 2 charge Template S1 AP2 poisoned (4+) witch fire. Well it's poisoned, so it's going to wound anyone on a 4+, and it's an AP2 so anything that doesn't have an invul save is goign to be hurting. It does have a nice bonus in that if used against a vehicle, it automatically inflicts a glancing hit on a 4+.

- okay, over all not exactly bad. It's not going to be taking out Land Raiders on it's own.

So of the 4 options the Aspiring Sorcerer has from the Tzeentch table, it's Primaris power is "ok" the 1-2 is rather underwhelming and I would just swap it for the Primaris anyway. The 3-4 is the 'want' power from the table, while the Breath of Chaos is... well it's interesting but honestly it seems like something better suited to Nurgle then Tzeentch.

Do they have any other downsides? Yeah, they do. Firstly they have no options to really speak of outside adding more Thousand Sons to the unit. And at that they are 23 points each. Yes the Aspiring Sorcerer can take melta bombs and boon of mutation. Yeah, Boon of Mutation has the same problem as Boon of Mutation Psychic power.

Okay, so how do they really stand up on the battlefield?

Well, the best way I can describe them is to say they are somewhere between a lame shield and a glass sword. When they hit hard, they do a lot of damage that most units can not walk off. They are still space marines meaning they shoot their targets on a 3 or better, so one average you're going to land 2 out of every 3 shots you make with them. Nice. They have S4 AP3 bolters. So against most marine forces you'll be wounding on 4+ and most of the time normal marines either won't have an invulnerable save or will be forced to take their cover saves. So I did some numbers grinding and figured that a 10 man Thousand Sons unit, rapid firing at a 10 man Tacticle squad of Space Marines will average out to 7 wounds per round of shooting.

So the upside of that scenario: those marines you wounded, don't get their armor save. Oh, and chances are good that you will be able to charge them and finish off the remains of the squad.

The downside of the scenario: it's very optimistic and in a vacuum. The other problem with the scenario, that 10 man Thousand Sons unit is going to run you 265 points, compared to the 10 Tactical marines that with a melta gun run a more budget friendly 150 points. So while it's a semi-safe bet that your 10 man unit is going to wipe out their 10 man unit, realize that you've only made back 150 of your 265 points. You're still coming up a rather painful 115 point short. And that's assuming that the 265 points worth of Thousand Sons get to engagement with that Tactical squad unharmed. Considering that 265 points is more then 1/10th of a 2500 point army list, that's leaving you at a sizable disadvantage that's only going to get bigger the more points you put into that unit. Want to give them a Transport? Well now you're looking at 300 points for the unit. Want to go with a Max-sized unit for maximum fire power ability? 500 points before you add a transport of any kind.

So the strengths of the unit are definitely their short ranged fire power ability coupled with their 4++.

The Downsides of the unit... that is a longer list. The Aspiring Sorcerer, the Slow and Purposeful, the lack of reliable armor beating abilities, and their painful price tag.

Anyone have any additional info to bring up or alternative views on Thousand Sons?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/08 04:54:31


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Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

With regard to powers, the Sorcerer will get Psychic Focus, so they get the Primaris on top of what is rolled. So two powers.

Sadly they die the same as any marine to lasguns. But cost twice as much.

Start dropping them out of Dreadclaws and things start to get interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 02:54:03


 
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor






Something a friend pointed out:

For 15 points, one model in the unit of Thousand Sons can take The Icon of Flame which gives all their bolters soul blaze. So... it's more of a pro then it is a con, as it gives a unit of Thousand Sons the ability to inflict additional wounds which can help stack up against hoard armies. This has it's plus of being more damage, but against Marine equivalent units the chances of these translating to additional wounds is slim. Though against the likes of Astra Militarum, Ork Boyz, or Tyranid Gaunts and Gargoyales it might add up to make Thousand Sons more effective fire bases.

However, even with the Icon of Wraith the high cost of the Thousand Sons coupled with their same as marines survival rate and compounded by their Slow and Purposeful special rule make them a tricky unit to make use of.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I almost never remember the soul blaze rule. pretty worthless Imo.

TS needs t be less points, basically. they have the AP3 premium which entirely forgets that even marines can go behind cover.

DFTT 
   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Moon Township, PA

A squad of T-sons in a rhino in your backfield, may give your opponent pause to come rushing in headlong. While they may not "earn" their points back, if they can force your opponent to deviate from his original game plan, they may serve useful.

With that being said, they are still just a bit too expensive to really justify using them. However, I still plan on trying out my T-Sons list next month at a local tournament. I don't expect to do well, but such is life.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Green is Best! wrote:
A squad of T-sons in a rhino in your backfield, may give your opponent pause to come rushing in headlong. While they may not "earn" their points back, if they can force your opponent to deviate from his original game plan, they may serve useful.

With that being said, they are still just a bit too expensive to really justify using them. However, I still plan on trying out my T-Sons list next month at a local tournament. I don't expect to do well, but such is life.

It won't when your opponent realizes that the damage output of Rubrics is laughable for the price.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Hellacious Havoc





Everywhere at once..

Thousand Sons are just another one of the many csm units that need to be paired to cause utter devastation.

TS + Rhino = mmeh

TS + Rhino with Maulerfiend = keep talking

TS + Rhino with KB + Landraider = :]

TS + Rhino with TS + Rhino and Oblits = Fun


I am changed . . . an outcast now.  
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I'm honestly surprised they didn't just make it so that the Icon of Flame would allow their inferno bolts to ignore cover saves. Bam, cover problem solved. They still cost a bunch and can't overwatch so it balances it out in that sense. Might have to raise the points of the Icon though.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




That would work. Would make the icon almost compulsory. Still not sure they'd be competitive. At the end of the day chaos has plenty of ways of killing power armour.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/11 09:50:24


DFTT 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Tribune





The slow and purposeful and no heavy weapons, only ap3 bolters.What a pity.

If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers. 
   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Moon Township, PA

 Draco wrote:
The slow and purposeful and no heavy weapons, only ap3 bolters.What a pity.


It is a pity, but its not what they are designed for. Thats like saying Havocs don't have cc weapons, what a pity. But it would be nice if they could even take just one ap3 heavy bolter per squad. Something. Anything.

I really want to like and use T Sons, but they serve such a niche role and cost so much. If they were 19-20 points a piece, I think you would see more of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/11 15:24:52


 
   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





You don't mention the Tzeentch marked Sorceror tax to get them as troops, and your analysis for shooting would be better when comparing a 170 point 10 man double plasma squad with a 173 point 6 man TSons squad (including the Aspiring Sorceror).

Even when enemy marines are standing in the open with no cover saves, the double plasma squad still comes out ahead, which is more than a little sad. Taking a rhino only makes this worse as the 2 plasma guns can still contribute 90% of the squads damage output while mounted while you can only fire a pair of bolters with the TSons (though you can pop your witchfires from out of the hatch if you really want to waste warpcharge).

Fearless is nice though, as you will hold that objective until the last man falls. You also make for a surprisingly good tarpit (if an expensive one) due to your 4++.

If you do have a Sorceror with them (your Troops Tax has to go somewhere) they can get both force weapons activated for the price of 1, and an aspiring sorceror can make for rather effective challenge bait as he can live long enough to survive if given a force axe due to the 4++ and instant death is a worry to things without EW.

While they are not horrendously overcosted individually (21 ppm would be about right), the Aspiring Sorc is nowhere near worth 58 points when he's locked to the terrible Tzeentch powers. If he could roll on Div/Telepathy/Sanctic/Bio then you'd have something worthwhile, but as it is now? He needs to be about 20 points cheaper.

Allowing 1 per 9 to take an AP2 heavy bolter for 10-20 points would also solve some of their problems, but I'd settle for fixing the aspiring sorceror first.

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor






Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

Thoughts?

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Maverike_prime wrote:
Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

Thoughts?

Relentless doesnt help them, really. I'd just pay to keep the Sorcerer away and leave them as SaP. They don't honestly get enough out of it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maverike_prime wrote:
Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

Thoughts?

Relentless doesnt help them, really. I'd just pay to keep the Sorcerer away and leave them as SaP. They don't honestly get enough out of it.


really? Being able to Over Watch and Sweeping Advance is nothing?

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Maverike_prime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maverike_prime wrote:
Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

Thoughts?

Relentless doesnt help them, really. I'd just pay to keep the Sorcerer away and leave them as SaP. They don't honestly get enough out of it.


really? Being able to Over Watch and Sweeping Advance is nothing?

It isn't for Rubrics.
1. They aren't in high enough numbers for Overwatch to be even worth rolling.
2. They suck at combat. 1 attack, no grenades, and Marine durability at their point cost means they aren't going to sweep anything anytime soon.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maverike_prime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maverike_prime wrote:
Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

Thoughts?

Relentless doesnt help them, really. I'd just pay to keep the Sorcerer away and leave them as SaP. They don't honestly get enough out of it.


really? Being able to Over Watch and Sweeping Advance is nothing?

It isn't for Rubrics.
1. They aren't in high enough numbers for Overwatch to be even worth rolling.
2. They suck at combat. 1 attack, no grenades, and Marine durability at their point cost means they aren't going to sweep anything anytime soon.


it is true that T-sons aren't CC specialists. so yeah. Using them as a dedicated assault unit... well that pretty much speaks for itself. However, Once in combat, regardless of weather they were the ones charging or the ones being charged, they have the same combat stats as normal Tactical marines. And I've had my Tactical win rounds of combat through attrition several times. Even better with the T-sons is they do have a Force Weapon in their midst (assuming we're still talking about my suggestion of making the Sorcerer option and you bought him) and having a 4++.
"Oh you have a power axe on your Sergent? Well lemme try my Force Sword first."
"Oh you wounded me with that Power Ax so I don't get my 3+ armor. Well I still have my 4++"
Again, not saying that Thousand Sons, even with Relentless make a good assault unit. But if they find themselves in Combat... well. As it stands right now they get exactly one shot to inflict damage. period. And that's in the actual combat. No Sweeping Advance. No OverWatch.
With my Tac marines I can then attempt to sweeping advance and possibly over run and wipe out the unit I had been in combat with. With Thousand Sons, they don't even get the chance to try that. "Oh look, the living suits of armor won combat . Run Away and charge them next turn!"
"Hey what do you know? They can't over watch us."

It's just that has it stands now, Thousand Sons are painful under equipped to respond to an CC situation that it's greatest weakness. Want to kill Thousand Sons? Take a unit that has hit and run and charge 'em to death. They can't over watch, and once they're in combat they can't shoot. Hell just keep hitting them with a unit of White Scar bikers. Hammer of Wrath, 2 attacks, hit and run. Rinse and repeat. The T-sons can't over watch 'em (Which in a comparable point squad could actually break the charge if the T-sons hit with 3 or more shots since AP3 means the Bikers don't get armor saves).

Again, I am NOT saying that giving T-sons access to relentless would make them an assault dedicated unit. But has it stands now, a unit of 10 ork boyz has a better response to being charged then a unit of 5 T-sons.

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