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Never hear of it to be honest Bloodoffi, would you mind posting some key rules? Thanks

is it worth taking mephiston over a standard librarian with jump pack?

regarding the xiphon.

It costs about the same at 205pts before upgrades, but is 11 armor around, and only 2 hps. Has no transport capacity and I think 2 weapons total.

Its weapon has a special rule that if it scores a penetrating hit it rolls d3 times on the table and picks the highest result. Opponents also have to reroll jink/cover saves versus that specific weapon.

It can Deep strike in hover or flyer mode, which is interesting but can cause it to mishap.

It is similar to the stormraven in that it can hunt vehicles, but it is mainly designed to hunt aircraft, and has no transport capacity.

kps wrote:
Looks good. Wyverns are awesome. Sicarians are awesome. I like the list.
Btw, There's an order that gives split fire. Its useful for the melta shots and demo charge to split. You're not always in a position to be 8" from one squad and 12" from another, but I've had the chance to do that once. I think I'll take away 1 of the vet squads demo charge.

I like the idea of small bike squads. I run a little bike star with 4 bikers and 2.5 grav and mm attack bike, a captain with storm shield, combi grav, articifer armor, and pfist. And then a priest with combi grav. This is awesome, but once the combi grav are gone i think several bike squads with 2 straight grav each would be better.


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Hq
Priest. Warlord, combigrav, bike
Captain. Storm shield, combigrav, articifer armor, pfist

Troop
9 tac squad. Heavy flamer, drop pod

Elite
7 death company. 7 bolters, 2 pfists
5 sang guard. 1axe, 1 pfist
Frag Dreadnought. Drop pod

Fast attack
4 bike squad. 2 grav, combigrav, mm attack bike
5 assault squad. 2 melta, combimelta, drop pod
5 assault squad. 2 melta, combimelta, drop pod
3 drop pods

Astra militarum allies
Hq
5 company command. 4 melta

Troop
10 vet squad. 3 melta, demo charge
10 vet squad. 3 melta, demo charge

1846

Ah yes - I'd never thought about the split fire rule, excellent point. I think I'd drop my tl las and something else and grab the demo charge then.
Love your list. Is this the one you've used before?
I don't own any bikes (well - 3, but DV ones so no grav) so have only been on the receiving end of grav, but know how irritating it is. Since we don't get bike troops at 5 man and 21pts is a lot for abalative wounds I think it's better to stick them at 3 personally... or 3 plus AB. Unless going for a biker star with characters like you have.
Do you think maybe dropping 1 melta from your CCS and finding another 5pts to get a vox on each squad to almost guarantee those orders is worth it?

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[spoiler]

 bloodoffi wrote:
Well, what do you think on the new xiphon flyer? Could it replacethe stormraven?

I really don't think so personally.
- It's far more fragile than the SR.
- The MM on a SR has more chance of an explodes result than the XRML - it just looks fancy as a d3 roll.
- Against non ceremite targets the SR causes more damage against every single av value and toughness. Against ceremite targets of certain value the Xiphon ever so slightly edges ahead. This includes its reroll jink/ignores cover.
- The SR can carry a dread and upto 12 passengers compared to the Xiphons none.
- The SR is 5pts cheaper.

In return the Xiphon gets:
- +1 jink. If it's jinking its entirely useless. And with av11 2HP 205pts - you will definitely be tempted to jink it.
- Deep strike. This is decent for rear armour shots on flyers. But good enough to cancel out all the advantages of the SR? No way. Also only useful against flyers coming on before you. If using this against ground targets, you may as well use a dual mm speeder for 125pts cheaper.


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 Kasrkin52 wrote:
is it worth taking mephiston over a standard librarian with jump pack?

If you can fit him in and have the points yes! I've run him once since the new dex. With a 9 man assault squad in a pod - they did reasonably well (against CSM I think). Anyway - the issue I find is actually finding a list to fit him in since most of my units in most of my list tend to be small melta pod squads (not ideal for an expensive character), jp squads or infiltrating squads. I think if taking th/ss termis, sternguard or a large pod squad he would be worth it over a standard libby. A jp libby on the other hand goes with different units so it is hard to compare.

As said above. It has 2 tl lascannon and 1 missile lancer with -1 ap from the Original missile lancher. When it pens you roll d3 times and you take the highest roll at the damage table. Has +1 in it's jink save and successful jink saves from the target must be enrolled. I was thinking using it in wave serpents spams or flying circus lists..

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fwDownloads

Its rules are available here.
Don't be fooled - d3 pick the highest rolls at ap2 on the damage table is actually worse than just a straight ap1. Tl mm is mathmatically better than the 2 (non tl) shots of the XRML against almost everything (except FMCs and ceremite models).
Tl ac wins out against one of the tl lcs against everything barring av12 where it is equal.
3 st8 ap2 missiles win out against the remaining tl lascannon.
Av12 3hps wins out against av11 2hps and +1 jink.
12 + dread cap wins out against no cap.
200pts wins out against 205pts.
Non DS loses out to DS.

I like the idea of top 3 units, here's mine:

HQ:
Mephiston
Chaplin
Librarian (either jp or tda/SS)

Troops:
CCW/BP scouts
5man tac with flamer (hide in own deployment zone on an objective)
5 man tac squad, plas, combo plas, las/plas razorback (great for razor spam, take in cad rather than BSF)

Honourable mention: Cassor the Damned, good if you like DC dreads as won't take an elite slot, also a character so can benefit from The Quickening

Elite:
Death Company, JPs, PW and PF to taste
Fragioso in pod
Sternguard go accompany Meph

Fast:
MM attack bikes
Bike squads
Drop pod (great for rent-a-pod in FTSF)

Heavy:
Trilas Pred
Stormraven
Vindi

Lord of War:
Dante. What a boss he is now.

D

Ok, thanks for telling me.
I think I'll stick to the stormraven.

InsTincT_OP wrote:
Ok, thanks for telling me.
I think I'll stick to the stormraven.

You may want to consider one last thing before you say that. Style man!

The Xyphon actually looks really cool, I love it

The Xyphon actually looks really cool, I love it

Haha, fair enough that means alot lol.

The sound of allying imperial guard sounds like a good idea from what you guys have said, the re-rolls and split fire seems to be especially good imo,
Atm I am looking into formations a bit more, in particular the angels fury spearhead one, although I'm finding it slightly difficult to add everything I want to in at 1850-2000.
You guys have also helped me look towards allies more as well, as before I seemingly just wanted to stick to pure BA. (Dont ask me why, I have no idea!)
Anyway, which formations and allies are you liking atm? Astra Millitarum seems to be an obvious choice for many of you.

I know what you mean. I've wanted to be pure blood angels for a long time. But i realize that is more fun to have an army that can win if you play smart, and pure blood angels is not always capable of that. It's a decent codex, but it's not powerful enough to beat the likes of eldar, tau, necron, meq We either get shot of the board or beat at our own game. Blood angels are not cc powerhouse. We're fast and elite. So we just gotta play to blood angels strengths and find a way too be threatening instead of just hopeful that we might get into close combat with enough guys left to do damage. That's no fun.

Blood angels need allies to be truly competitive. I like the fluff of using imperial guard battle brothers personally. Tau missile star could add the resilient, shot absorbing, powerhouse shooting type of squad that would allow our units like death company and sanguinary guard to get into combat before getting blasted. But i hate tau. I'm sure there are some other good options out there too. So good question. I'm curious what other armies might ally well with ba to play to our strengths - fast elites.
Since we are 1 of 2 armies that can take drop pods as fast attack, and since we can take flesh tearers formation and get 6 fast attack slots and only need 1 troop, i don't see why it's not a standard practice for ba players to alpha strike something nasty in those pods.

Played two games using a couple combinations of Corbulo and Death Company. Both worked really well, especially when keeping the DC units near enough to Corbulo to benefit from the +1 WS and I.

Game 1: Corbulo, with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, 3 squads of 10 DC with JP, 1 with Astorath.
Game 2: 2 DC Squads with JP, 1 DC squad on foot in Land Raider with Corbulo.

Probably more synergy with the 1st setup though. I was playing against Space Wolves, so the Initiative at 6 on the charge didn't matter too much, but when receiving attacks, it was nice to still go first.

Ghost_Raptur wrote:
Played two games using a couple combinations of Corbulo and Death Company. Both worked really well, especially when keeping the DC units near enough to Corbulo to benefit from the +1 WS and I.

Game 1: Corbulo, with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, 3 squads of 10 DC with JP, 1 with Astorath.
Game 2: 2 DC Squads with JP, 1 DC squad on foot in Land Raider with Corbulo.

Probably more synergy with the 1st setup though. I was playing against Space Wolves, so the Initiative at 6 on the charge didn't matter too much, but when receiving attacks, it was nice to still go first.

What was the space wolf list?

I've been trying something in my last few games and since it's been working rather well I thought I'd share my experiences.

Conventional internet wisdom currently seems to be putting Dante in with a squad of Sang Guard and a priest for the WS buff and FnP.

I've been running Dante with my DC and a Chaplain and I've been pretty pleased with the results.

Let me explain how I got to this point. I was thinking which unit would benefit most from Hit & Run than is provided by Dante. My experience with the DC has been that they rock the first round of combat but less so in subsequent rounds, being able to rinse and repeat the bonus attacks, FC and bonus initiative (BSF only) is would be sweet. Since I'd being missing the BS5 on the DC I've been trying out the Chappy as my HQ as the rerolls on the charge is still sweet, obviously this only gets better with HnR.

I haven't done the Mathhammer on how DC vs SG stack up but I've toted up some figures and put together some observations:

Sang Guard
To get the most out of these you'll want a JP priest, atleast with a power weapon (if not the ap2 sword, I've calculated on a std pw). He brings +1WS and FnP to the unit. 2+/5+ FnP makes for a pretty durable squad. He'll want a pistol too.

The SG themselves, I've calculated 8 bodies with 7 PWs of various descriptions and a PF, you'll want the banner for those essential bonus attacks too.
This unit runs with the priest runs you 390pts plus the cost of Dante which I haven't includes as he appears in both units.

Pros
2+ with 5+ FnP makes them tough, Dante and the Priest also benefit from these buffs
WS5 whilst the priest is alive and nearly everyone having mastercrafted weapons means alot of your attacks will land.
Everyone is striking with at least ap3 weapons
Cheap power fists
Ap4 shooting to from Angelius BPs
If some gets a wound on your priest he'll be LOSing onto 2+ assuming it's not an ap 2 attack.

Cons
Potential for your extra attacks banner / FnP to be sniped out
All those high ap weapons can sometimes be a waste when against hordes
Expensive per model, each casualty hurts
Lower 'rate of fire' on attacks
No access to an invul for the priest

Death Co:
As with the SG this unit needs a character, this time the humble Chaplain. Slightly higher cost off the bat but he comes with an invul and a built in power weapon (maul so ap4). The only buffs the chappy brings is rerolls to hit on the charge. I would be intrigued to know the math hammer on WS5 w/ Masreeqcraftes vs rerolling all attacks at WS4. I would consider swapping the Chappy's BP for Valours Edge if you wanted more ap2, keep the maul for the S bonus for punching rear-armour.

Death Co I've opted for more bodies to bring the points cost in line with the SG, the extra bodies also help with durability lost from not having as good an armour save as the SG. I've calculated the squad on 11 dc, 1pf
Cost for squad and chaplain : 383

Pros:
Can't lose FNP from sniping of character
Rerolling all hits on the charge, with hit and run allowing for recharging this is pretty big
Rage so +2 attacks on the charge, again with hit and run this is brutal
Both characters have an invul
Weight of attacks put unit in good stead versus horde or elite units with decent invuls (Wraiths, TWC, TH/SS, Other beatstick characters)
S7 on Chap and mass S5 good when hitting rear of most vehicles
Casualties hurt less due to being cheaper per model
Cons
Dante/Chap don't get FnP
Potentially for the Chap to be sniped out and losing the precious rerolls
Upgrades for squad (PWs/PF) are pointy

There may be other pros/cons that I've missed, but they're the ones that jump out at me at this moment. Feel free to add and discuss.

The final point I want to bring up is that I think the DC are better for multi charging, although yes you lose more attacks as you don't benefit from rage but I like that you can almost control your damage output this way so you can ensure you remain locked in combat to not get shot and can jump out again to relive the S and I bonuses.

Thoughts?

D

I agree with what your saying, but I think people (including myself) put dante with the sang guard because it just seems right to have nipple armour models together, as well as the fluff etc.
Its difficult to find out which is best.
Maybe astorath with jump pack death company might be decent, but hes quite expensive, and the unwieldy axe puts me off a bit.
In a normal size game , say 1850, I dont know if Id want to invest in both squads, as they are esentially as close as we can get to effective deathstars.
I saw someone on here add a librarian to both squads (or one or the other obviously), that might be something worth investing in as you can get a load of buffs.
I was wondering if mephy and a squad of th/ss termies in a stormraven could be a good option, but I would likely want to add a sanguinary priest, which would take it away from my planned sanguinary guard squad.

All in all though, I agree with your points, but its hard to decide which is best imo

I think another big reason for dante in SG aside from increased ws, attack and fnp is the fact that SG have no invuln so with his EW and 4++ dante can take a few lascannon hits for the squad rather than you losing expensive SG. I would keep tanking ap2 st8 or higher with dante until he gets down to a couple of wounds, unless your saving him for a duel against a strong character. Aside from a bike captain with SS (who still IDs at st10), or an allied in bike/jump CM/capt with shield eternal, there is just no other way to get an invuln on those SG, well, apart from psychic powers that you are not certain of getting.

Yeah I agree, thats one thing I considered too.

I don't use SG atm, because you lose a lot more vs a DC guy when the AP 2 hits come in.

Jump pack Death Company have butchered most things I have charged them at. Cannot think of a single time I have used them where they haven't been brutally awesome for me.

Death Company are definitely an auto include, in my opinion the best unit in the Elites slot and in the entire army. As for the troop slot, I don't see the point in taking more than two tactical squads. I always take the two troops as the baal detachment formation bonus of +1 initiative on the charge is excellent.

For me it's a core backbone of Mephiston, Death Company, two tactical squads in Rhino/Razorback, Stormraven and then just build the rest around that depending on the points you've got left over to play with.


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InsTincT_OP wrote:
I agree with what your saying, but I think people (including myself) put dante with the sang guard because it just seems right to have nipple armour models together, as well as the fluff etc.
Its difficult to find out which is best.
Maybe astorath with jump pack death company might be decent, but hes quite expensive, and the unwieldy axe puts me off a bit.
In a normal size game , say 1850, I dont know if Id want to invest in both squads, as they are esentially as close as we can get to effective deathstars.
I saw someone on here add a librarian to both squads (or one or the other obviously), that might be something worth investing in as you can get a load of buffs.
I was wondering if mephy and a squad of th/ss termies in a stormraven could be a good option, but I would likely want to add a sanguinary priest, which would take it away from my planned sanguinary guard squad.

All in all though, I agree with your points, but its hard to decide which is best imo

I agree. Dante buffs Sanguinary Guard with his invun save and they in turn give him an extra attack with the banner and some 2+ armour wounds to shield him with. With that unit having hit and run thanks to Dante, they can do quite a bit of damage around the table and easily withdraw from combat if things aren't going their way.

I hadn't really thought about Mephiston and TH/SS before, but thinking about it, it does sound awesome. Mephy's biggest weakness is his lack of invun save, so I guess those termies would tank some of those wounds for him. I'm thinking that it depends on the situation, the Mephy TH/SS combo would hit like a hammer, but once they have charged out of the Stormraven and had their fight with whatever enemy unit, they are then pretty slow moving across the rest of the table, unless you can get them back in the Stormraven if it doesn't get shot down from being in hover mode. I personally prefer the sound of Dante and Sanguinary Guard combo due to their movement potential across the board, especially handy for capturing late objectives in the game.

At the moment


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At the moment, I am heavily considering using a combined arms detachment with the angels fury strikeforce and the baal strikeforce. This would give me obsec on the tacticals whilst still having the +1 initiative on my assaulty units. The only negative I see is that I would have to disembark them behind cover as I likely wouldnt be assaulting out of it.

Mephiston doesn't need TH/SS terminators; he's got LOS now.

You don't want Mephiston in reserves in a transport. He can't cast anything like that.

"Cannot think of a single time I have used them where they haven't been brutally awesome for me. "

Those times when people spoiling assault you. That's when.

I suppose, but I cant think of any other hard-hitting assaulty units to put him with. Some people seem to like him with sternguard in drop pods.

Why put him with an assault unit? It's a game of shooting, not assault.

Martel732 wrote:


"Cannot think of a single time I have used them where they haven't been brutally awesome for me. "

Those times when people spoiling assault you. That's when.

lol - well I have only played them against CSM's and have been lucky to charge them from behind cover or out of a Storm raven with not a great deal of overwatch being able to stop them. Assault not been spoiled for me yet, but I suspect it will be all together a lot more tricky against the likes of Tau, Eldar et al.


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InsTincT_OP wrote:
I suppose, but I cant think of any other hard-hitting assaulty units to put him with. Some people seem to like him with sternguard in drop pods.

I play him with a 5 man tactical squad in a Razorback. The fast engine (with additional firepower) gets him across the table relatively quick and tactical marines work pretty well with him.

Or other BA.

He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.

InsTincT_OP wrote:
He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.

No, he's not. He's a support character. He makes your unit basically immune to psychic powers. He can support the Sternguard just as well as TH/SS terminators. Better, in fact, since he is a legit CC threat to units without 2+ armor. TH/SS already threaten units in CC. Divination Mephy with Sternguard is $$. Sometimes, biomancy works too. Biomancy can provide a pretty good amount of shooting as well.

To be more specific, Dante is the close combat character now, not Mephy.

kps wrote:

Ghost_Raptur wrote:
Played two games using a couple combinations of Corbulo and Death Company. Both worked really well, especially when keeping the DC units near enough to Corbulo to benefit from the +1 WS and I.

Game 1: Corbulo, with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, 3 squads of 10 DC with JP, 1 with Astorath.
Game 2: 2 DC Squads with JP, 1 DC squad on foot in Land Raider with Corbulo.

Probably more synergy with the 1st setup though. I was playing against Space Wolves, so the Initiative at 6 on the charge didn't matter too much, but when receiving attacks, it was nice to still go first.

What was the space wolf list?

Game 1: If I recall correctly, SW player had DP Grey Hunters, one LR with the Arjac formation, and another LR stuffed with blood claws, as well as 2x Long Fangs with MLs.
Game 2: He ran a foot list with 2 groups of TWC, had attached 1 with either a named HQ on a TWC or a lord on a TWC. 3-4 groups of GH, 1 big group of wolves and 2x Long Fangs again with MLs.

I may have missed a couple units from these.

In regards to the DC vs SG, my games with both have both proven they both work great. Both have pros and cos given a certain situation and honestly, neither to me edges out the other for what would be termed auto include, which is how it should be. Make a list centered around how you want to play, given the units support and they'll do well. This also applies to VV as much as people seem to not like them. Putting a Sanguinary Priest with them actually gets more hits through compared to DC for a comparative pts/model or pts/wound basis (assuming 10 VV models) on the charge (and then of course on the following rounds). Also, remember they are the JP unit that can actually get guaranteed invulns compared to DC and SG. I'll admit however, VV only become on par when the priest is included.


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Martel732 wrote:

InsTincT_OP wrote:
He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.

No, he's not. He's a support character. He makes your unit basically immune to psychic powers. He can support the Sternguard just as well as TH/SS terminators. Better, in fact, since he is a legit CC threat to units without 2+ armor. TH/SS already threaten units in CC. Divination Mephy with Sternguard is $$. Sometimes, biomancy works too. Biomancy can provide a pretty good amount of shooting as well.

To be more specific, Dante is the close combat character now, not Mephy.

I agree that Mephiston, by his nature as a psyker makes him a support character. However, his abilities stemming from his stats and Sanguine Sword gives options and capabilities that other dedicated CC characters such as Dante would have difficulty with. Again pros and cons given a situation. Case in point, Mephiston is a better choice for attacking knights (should strip 3 HP off) and heavier vehicles. With force off, he will murder multiple wound models.That brings up another point is the difficulty for gauging who is better in a vacuum, with how players utilize character's abilities, and how they buff them in various directions to bring different capabilities to the table. Dante is a tank and AP2 killer by default, that gives him a certain role he can fulfill. He has Eternal warrior and Hit and Run is amazing. Mephiston by default is offensive power and can deliver instant death. The psychic powers you choose can take him in any direction you want. I use both and love both, really depends on how I want to cut my Xenos steaks for the day.

Play how you want to play and have fun with it!

Poly Ranger wrote:
I think another big reason for dante in SG aside from increased ws, attack and fnp is the fact that SG have no invuln so with his EW and 4++ dante can take a few lascannon hits for the squad rather than you losing expensive SG. I would keep tanking ap2 st8 or higher with dante until he gets down to a couple of wounds, unless your saving him for a duel against a strong character. Aside from a bike captain with SS (who still IDs at st10), or an allied in bike/jump CM/capt with shield eternal, there is just no other way to get an invuln on those SG, well, apart from psychic powers that you are not certain of getting.

True, but can't the same be said for Dante with DC? My proposition is Dante with DC vs Dante with SG. I skipped over what Dante does as we all know he's an awesome las-cannon tanking beatstick. DC also lack an invul so a 'wound spong' is really great to ensure that when you hit you hit like a ton of bricks.

D


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Martel732 wrote:

InsTincT_OP wrote:
He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.

No, he's not. He's a support character. He makes your unit basically immune to psychic powers. He can support the Sternguard just as well as TH/SS terminators. Better, in fact, since he is a legit CC threat to units without 2+ armor. TH/SS already threaten units in CC. Divination Mephy with Sternguard is $$. Sometimes, biomancy works too. Biomancy can provide a pretty good amount of shooting as well.

To be more specific, Dante is the close combat character now, not Mephy.

I'm with you 100% here. Mephy is a support character who is handy in a punch up, but he's best use (from my experience) is with the Sternguard.

He's been so good in for me that in my last game my opponent pretty much focused all his fire at Meph and the Sternguard and allowed me to butcher his other flank (with DC & Dante no less)

D

Mephy can't penetrate 2+ armor. That eliminates him from dedicated CC right there. But he's really good at punching out vehicles and most MCs.