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Howdy Dakka!
I'll be heading out to the LVO here in a couple weeks (alongside of many of yourselves, of course)! I recently just got done taking my Orks (my favorite army) to the Renegade GT, which you can find posted here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623943.page

You may notice that I was partaking in doktor_g's challenge - which I was successful at!

 doktor_g wrote:
Ok... I love Orks. I'm still buying. Still painting. Been to tourneys with them. 2 majors. I have >8000 points. 100% themed. 100% painted. I know what I'm doing with them. I'm not a strategic genius, but I'm no slouch. I am frakking sick of losing with this bullshim codex in competitive play. SICK!

Make a list. Any ork build. Battleforge. 1850. Play it 3 times in a competitive meta. I'll bet you lose at LEAST 2 of 3 games.

Doktor_g is a very gracious dakkaite, and after I won 2/3 games, he kindly donated his Stompa, just as promised .



However, even after completing the challenge, I feel unjustly rewarded - I wasn't able to get into the top 16 due to a clerical error, and I want another shot to prove what the original challenge was all about: That Orks really can compete in the tournament scene, and take on the best with great success! And, what better place to prove it then the LVO 2015?!?

My goal? I want to try and make it into top 8 at the tournament. If I can get that far, I will consider the list a resounding success, and a victory for the Orks. However, if I can't manage that, I would also settle for the top 10% of the field, but I'm not going to state that such a thing will be easy. I'm sure if the LVO is anything like Adepticon then the best players from around the country will show up, and I've no doubt I've got my work cut out for me.

I had originally planned on taking Green Tide to the LVO, but I am now internally debating this decision. This is not a question of competitiveness (as I think Green Tide is VERY good), but rather one of taste. While Green Tide hits like a truck and is very punchy, it is also EXTREMELY slow - and my preferred kind of list is MTO (Maximum Threat Overload). Hit 'em hard, and hit 'em fast - shove so many threats down the opponent's throat that they can't deal with em all!

As such, I am considering one of the two following lists: Either Bully Boyz, or Green Tide. Here they are:

LIST ONE: The Green Tide


* "Green Tide Formation"
94x Boyz
6x Nobz with Klaws

* Warboss warlord
* 'Eavy Armour
Power Klaw
Big Bosspole

Orks: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +
* Big Mek
Gift: Da Lucky Stikk ,
* 'Eavy Armour
Killsaw

* Painboy

+ Elites +
* 9x Tankbusta

* 10x Tankbusta

+ Troops +
* 10x Gretchin
* Runtherd

* 10x Boyz
Nob W/ Klaw+BP

+ Fast Attack +
* Deffkopta
Choppa, Twin-linked Rokkits

+ Heavy Support +
* Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram

* Mek Gunz
5x Ammo Runt
* 5x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots

THOUGHTS ON LIST:

You'll notice that this list is very similar to my Renegade GT list, with a couple changes.

First, I've dropped to one Deffkopta - the only reason I took them before was because there was a maelstrom objective to get into your opponent's backfield, and I feel like one is sufficient for this.

Second, I've dropped the KFF - It was useful, but I feel like there are better uses of the 50 points.

Third, I've swapped out the Big Trakks for Gun Wagons - While slightly more pricey (70 vs 55 pts), the Gun Wagons are also way more durable, as they have AV 13/12/10 rather than 12/11/10.

Fourth, I finally relented and decided to take the Big Bosspole for the Green Tide. Honestly, I still don't see morale as an issue for the tide, so the main reason is because of fear checks. I failed enough ld9 fear checks against knights, MCs, etc at the Renegade to warrant spending the 20 points for fearless so I don't have to worry about that stupidass rule again.

Fifth, I swapped out a grot squad and some tankbustas for a Boyz Squad w/ a Klaw. The 6x man Tankbusta squad was cute, but I feel like the 10 man boy squad has more utility.


LIST TWO: Bully Boyz & Co.


* "Bully Boyz Formation"
4x PK Meganobz
1x w/ Killsawz
Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha, Ram

4x PK Meganobz
1x w/ Killsawz
Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha, Ram

4x PK Meganobz
1x w/ Killsawz
Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha, Ram

Orks: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) Selections:


+ HQ +

* Warboss
Bosspole, Gift: Da Lucky Stikk,
* Mega Armour

* Warboss Warlord
Gift: Da Finkin Cap ,
* 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw

+ Elites +
* 10x Tankbusta

* 10x Tankbusta

+ Troops +
* 10x Boyz
Nob W/ Klaw+BP

* 10x Boyz
Nob W/ Klaw+BP

+ Heavy Support +
* Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram

* Big Trakk Squad
* Big Trakk
2x Big Shootas, Boarding Plank
* Big Trakk
2x Big Shootas, Boarding Plank

* Mek Gunz
5x Ammo Runt
* 5x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots

THOUGHTS ON LIST:

I LOVE the Bully Boyz. They are deadly and killy as can get - perfect for an Ork army! I think of this list as the spiritual successor to my 5ed Battlewagon Rush list. 8 vehicles, all filled with deadly CC units....now that's a kunnin' plan I can get behind! Da Finkin' Cap is there to roll for the infiltrate, which I can put on the Meganobz if I desire, and everything besides the artillery basically rushes upfield. Honestly, I'd like to take a second squad of Gun Wagons if I could, but Gun Wagons only hold 10 models - which means the warbosses can't hop in if I need em to, hence the Big Trakks. I've only played this list at local tournaments, but it has done well, and it is a TON of fun to play. Funny side note: The list has a total of 81 Power Klaw attacks on the charge!


So there you have it. I've put a poll up to ask people how they think I'll place, and while I'm trying to aim for top 8 (or at least top 10%) of the field, I won't be holding my breath - all I can do is take the boyz to war and do the best with them that I can! If you guys have a thought on which list to take (or have any thoughts in general) let me know below. WAUGHHH!

Why not Stompa + 30 strong mobz

Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!

I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.

 koooaei wrote:
Why not Stompa + 30 strong mobz

Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!

I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.

Haha, I like that idea! The travelin' Ork Stompa trophy....

When you say the meta, what kind of counters are you talking about? I'm curious. My own local meta is rather odd, and I'd like to know what other locations have around the country for a meta.

Also, sorry, confused by your terminology of "Sucksessful"... is that a typo, or are you saying the Green Tide will have the worse matachups?

 Fxeni wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not Stompa + 30 strong mobz

Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!

I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.

Haha, I like that idea! The travelin' Ork Stompa trophy....

When you say the meta, what kind of counters are you talking about? I'm curious. My own local meta is rather odd, and I'd like to know what other locations have around the country for a meta.

Also, sorry, confused by your terminology of "Sucksessful"... is that a typo, or are you saying the Green Tide will have the worse matachups?

Aha, nope, i did mean succsessful I guess it's just the internet thing...

Anywayz, i've found out that you can counter many popular powerful builds with plain numbers and positioning.
Biker-spam is directly countered with GT while they're gona be a pain for mech orks as they concentrate on a flank, take out a couple of vehicles with grav weaponry and block your path making use of their superior maneuvrability and range durability.
Grav cents.
Alpha-strike builds that rely on taking out the most essential part of your army - GT is too numerous to be taken out with an Alpha-Strike.
You can deny movement for FMC, Flyers and psychic/shooty/both FMC spam (i bet you're gona face some pentyrants) is very hard to deal with for speed freaks.

But what counters GT? Mass artillery that's not used so often due to how ineffective it is against common stuff that's met at tournaments.
Serp spam to a degree - the good part, however, is that you rarely see pure serp spam. They're often supported by wraiths and/or WWP ap2 flamers that are not so frightening to GT.
Invisible units that are gona tarpit your GT all game - well...it is a counter. But can't have a win-win everywhere, right?

Don't get me wrong - i do think that speedfreaks are a powerful army. I just find they have more hard-matchups than GT at the moment.

Why not take Ghazzy on the Bully Boyz list, I know he is expensive, but all your mega nobs can run and assault during his waaaagh. On top of that he can tank a load of assaults with 2++ during that turn.

Not all - just the ones with Ghazzy.

Getting infiltrate on the MANZ won't help if they are in vehicles. Da Finkin Kap is less useful in this situation. I'd recommend the Green Tide list because it is much harder to stop. It is slow, but the MANZ are REALLY slow. With the prevalence of tanks and knights, armies bring lots of AT. They will therefore drop at least 1 of your tanks a turn, and your assault becomes disjointed. In your green tide list, I think a 2nd Deffkopta might be useful, to stay in reserve and come on after the 1st one dies.

If the unit has infiltrate they can do so in their dedicated transport.

I have a bully boyz/blitz list that works well in my local meta, but I suspect that it wouldn't hold up as well in the GT scene. Whereas I am generally not as successful with the Green Tide.

I would be very interested to see how your 2nd list does; if you choose to take it.

Green tide has a lot of strengths, but a lot of weaknesses, especially in a competitive (and timed) format.

It's one unit, without objsec, that is slow as crap and takes up most of your points. That's not great in an objective game. You have a couple fast things to help make up the difference, but deffkoptas and gunwagons don't last too long.

My biggest issue is that it's a LOT of models to move around in a timed event and when I use it, I usually have to make reasonable estimates on how many can attack because it's hard to accurately and quickly count how many are within chopping distance.

Maybe you're a lean, mean, green, model movin' machine, but personally, I think it would become a MAJOR pain to do that for 12 hours over 2 days.

Why give the DLS to a big mek, though? Why not another warboss? I mean, if the big mek had a KFF I could see it, but a naked big mek seems like a waste compared to a warboss.

As for bully boyz - it's easily the best (and easiest to use) formation orks have, and it's decent, but when your meganobz go toe-to-toe with elites from other armies like TH/SS terminators, they'll get their asses kicked so hard they'll have to gak out their mouths. PF/TH Insta-death-ing meganobz with no saves, and watching your opponent get 3++ is disheartening. And your list doesn't (and can't) have enough boyz to handle terminators.

I hear terminators are an unpopular choice in tournaments these days, so maybe it's not so bad, but riptides/wraithknights still do terrifying things to bully boyz and are so fast they'll never be caught. I mean, riptide's large blast str 8 ap2 evaporates meganobz with no saves, and wraithknight's suncannon isn't quite as bad, but still devastating. And then there's dreadknights, which will wreck them in CC.

Against any sort of gunline, your trukks will get shot to death and the nobz will be soon to follow, and there's not much you can do about it. Against any sort of elite army, meganobz are outclassed due to no invluns. If your enemy fields nothing but MEQs, you're in good shape, but that's probably not likely in competitions.

Your lists are probably about as good as they can be. Purely competitively, the green tide is probably better, as there's a LOT of things that ruin bully boyz' day, but being able to handle that list in a timed environment is something I, personally, couldn't do. You may fare better.

At any rate, my hat is off to you for trying. I'm not much of a tournament guy in general, and though my personal opinion is that brining 7th ed orks to a tourney is like bring a knife to a gunfight, it's nice to see people making the effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah - if any of the LVO games count kill points, beware - iirc, if the green tide is destroyed, it counts as 11 kill points (one for each boy group, plus the warboss).

And your tide is kinda small, and it's not that hard to kill 100 boyz. So if they do die, it's an unrecoverable loss.

Green tide is a much harder list to deal with then bullyboyz.
Also I think ur big mek should have kff but instead of keeping him at the back of the tide by the warlord as I believe you had at renegade put him closer upfront where the kff gives you massive bubble that protects your tide from heavy shooting lists. It's also not bad because w lucky stikk ur Mek has rerollable 5++, I find it more useful then 40points on eavy armour per squad. If you do take an eavy armor squad just take 1 and place those boys as body guards to your gt warboss, painboy, big Mek for LoS duties. You also tend to keep the greentide warboss in the back where his pk doesn't really become useful to later on in the game. If you need the points turn that into a big choppa. He is already standard str5 choppa makes him str7 and 8 on the charge which is all you need. Don't forget 2+ rerolls and invisibility is nerfed at LVO. The 2+ reroll nerf does no favors for ur mega armour w lucky stikk warboss and invisibility nerf only helps ur tide vs net lists.

I know you took gun wagons but I feel the meta is very vehicle heavy at the moment there is really not much going to keep 3 gunwagons alive.
I say take two sqauds of tankbustas and put them in trukks, they are cheap, fast and are able to get ur tankbustas in range to major threats quicker and am I mistaken or does a tankbustas dedicated transport also gain the tank hunter usr for its rokkets? If so its a cheap way to artificially increase your shots for ur tank hunters! You're going to need to screen those trukks with other units for cover save because they won't last long.

I would do something like this: use the warbikers to screen ur trukks for a cover save. Use the gretchin to shield your mekgun/loota gunline from deepstriking units. I feel warbikers mix well with the tide because it causes your opponent to focus on another fast moving infantry unit that can eat up a lot of the shooting that would go to blunt your greentide charge. If you want 5 more tankbustas get rid of the eavy armour on squad 1, get rid of the extra challenge nob in the tide and the nob in the warbiker squad. That gives you the points needed for 5 more, but I'm not so sure that a good idea. You can also turn the killsaw on the big Mek into a pk and use he points to give the gt challange nob a big choppa to make him more useful.
Warboss: bbp, shoota, big choppa, eavy armour
1xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota, eavy armor
5xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota
1xboy slugga squad, nob
3xboy slugga squad

Painboy
Big Mek: lucky stikk, kff, killsaw
10xgretchin
10xgretchin
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x warbikers, nob w big choppa
5 Mek gunz w kmk
14 lootas

Honestly what I wish for most was ghazskull to have the ability to call waagh every turn. I would gladly turn his 2++ invulnerable save to 4+ if he had that ability as well. That would make mega nobs better, another way to gain fearless and another way to give Orks more mobility and make ghaz more survivable overall without makin him to strong.

Kap'n Krump wrote:Green tide has a lot of strengths, but a lot of weaknesses, especially in a competitive (and timed) format.

It's one unit, without objsec, that is slow as crap and takes up most of your points. That's not great in an objective game. You have a couple fast things to help make up the difference, but deffkoptas and gunwagons don't last too long.

My biggest issue is that it's a LOT of models to move around in a timed event and when I use it, I usually have to make reasonable estimates on how many can attack because it's hard to accurately and quickly count how many are within chopping distance.

Maybe you're a lean, mean, green, model movin' machine, but personally, I think it would become a MAJOR pain to do that for 12 hours over 2 days.

Why give the DLS to a big mek, though? Why not another warboss? I mean, if the big mek had a KFF I could see it, but a naked big mek seems like a waste compared to a warboss.

As for bully boyz - it's easily the best (and easiest to use) formation orks have, and it's decent, but when your meganobz go toe-to-toe with elites from other armies like TH/SS terminators, they'll get their asses kicked so hard they'll have to gak out their mouths. PF/TH Insta-death-ing meganobz with no saves, and watching your opponent get 3++ is disheartening. And your list doesn't (and can't) have enough boyz to handle terminators.

I hear terminators are an unpopular choice in tournaments these days, so maybe it's not so bad, but riptides/wraithknights still do terrifying things to bully boyz and are so fast they'll never be caught. I mean, riptide's large blast str 8 ap2 evaporates meganobz with no saves, and wraithknight's suncannon isn't quite as bad, but still devastating. And then there's dreadknights, which will wreck them in CC.

Against any sort of gunline, your trukks will get shot to death and the nobz will be soon to follow, and there's not much you can do about it. Against any sort of elite army, meganobz are outclassed due to no invluns. If your enemy fields nothing but MEQs, you're in good shape, but that's probably not likely in competitions.

Your lists are probably about as good as they can be. Purely competitively, the green tide is probably better, as there's a LOT of things that ruin bully boyz' day, but being able to handle that list in a timed environment is something I, personally, couldn't do. You may fare better.

At any rate, my hat is off to you for trying. I'm not much of a tournament guy in general, and though my personal opinion is that brining 7th ed orks to a tourney is like bring a knife to a gunfight, it's nice to see people making the effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah - if any of the LVO games count kill points, beware - iirc, if the green tide is destroyed, it counts as 11 kill points (one for each boy group, plus the warboss).

And your tide is kinda small, and it's not that hard to kill 100 boyz. So if they do die, it's an unrecoverable loss.

Timing isn't really an issue for me - despite how bad the tide looks to move, I am actually able to finish all of my games with it just fine. The issue with it is how friggen tired I will be moving hundreds of models around every game turn - I don't want to be too tired to enjoy Vegas at the end of the day!

As for the Bully Boyz, I think people underestimate them. First of all, people always assume Bully Boyz are supposed to win a fair fight - they aren't. What they are supposed to do is one of two things:

Either they gang up on an opponent that just can't handle that many Klaws (A Dreadknight will kill 2 Bully Boyz on average, but will die in return when charged - especially if by more then one squad. Same thing with Wraithknights, and riptides, knights, etc. die HORRIBLE deaths to them).

OR

Mutual Annihilation. I don't throw my Bully Boyz into things expecting them to come out completely untattered - they are a sacrificial missile. If I charge bully boyz into a Knight, Wraithknight, Dreadknight, TH/SS termies, what have you - both squads die (although, even then, I usually have 1-3 nobs left at the end). And you know what? I'm totally okay with that. Those Meganobs, which cost me 210 points, just killed a 200 pt+ Dreadknight, or a 300 pt wraithknight, or a 400 pt Knight, or a LRC and then the termies inside for a total of nearly 500 pts! That's a spanking good deal man - because at the end of the game, if you are able to kill stuff your opponent controls in a >1 ratio to your deaths, then he gets wiped out before you do.

gungo wrote:Green tide is a much harder list to deal with then bullyboyz.
Also I think ur big mek should have kff but instead of keeping him at the back of the tide by the warlord as I believe you had at renegade put him closer upfront where the kff gives you massive bubble that protects your tide from heavy shooting lists. It's also not bad because w lucky stikk ur Mek has rerollable 5++, I find it more useful then 40points on eavy armour per squad. If you do take an eavy armor squad just take 1 and place those boys as body guards to your gt warboss, painboy, big Mek for LoS duties. You also tend to keep the greentide warboss in the back where his pk doesn't really become useful to later on in the game. If you need the points turn that into a big choppa. He is already standard str5 choppa makes him str7 and 8 on the charge which is all you need. Don't forget 2+ rerolls and invisibility is nerfed at LVO. The 2+ reroll nerf does no favors for ur mega armour w lucky stikk warboss and invisibility nerf only helps ur tide vs net lists.

I know you took gun wagons but I feel the meta is very vehicle heavy at the moment there is really not much going to keep 3 gunwagons alive.
I say take two sqauds of tankbustas and put them in trukks, they are cheap, fast and are able to get ur tankbustas in range to major threats quicker and am I mistaken or does a tankbustas dedicated transport also gain the tank hunter usr for its rokkets? If so its a cheap way to artificially increase your shots for ur tank hunters! You're going to need to screen those trukks with other units for cover save because they won't last long.

I would do something like this: use the warbikers to screen ur trukks for a cover save. Use the gretchin to shield your mekgun/loota gunline from deepstriking units. I feel warbikers mix well with the tide because it causes your opponent to focus on another fast moving infantry unit that can eat up a lot of the shooting that would go to blunt your greentide charge. If you want 5 more tankbustas get rid of the eavy armour on squad 1, get rid of the extra challenge nob in the tide and the nob in the warbiker squad. That gives you the points needed for 5 more, but I'm not so sure that a good idea. You can also turn the killsaw on the big Mek into a pk and use he points to give the gt challange nob a big choppa to make him more useful.
Warboss: bbp, shoota, big choppa, eavy armour
1xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota, eavy armor
5xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota
1xboy slugga squad, nob
3xboy slugga squad

Painboy
Big Mek: lucky stikk, kff, killsaw
10xgretchin
10xgretchin
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x warbikers, nob w big choppa
5 Mek gunz w kmk
14 lootas

Honestly what I wish for most was ghazskull to have the ability to call waagh every turn. I would gladly turn his 2++ invulnerable save to 4+ if he had that ability as well. That would make mega nobs better, another way to gain fearless and another way to give Orks more mobility and make ghaz more survivable overall without makin him to strong.

Man, you have no idea how badly I want to take Ghazzie at the head of the Green Tide. =/

koooaei wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not Stompa + 30 strong mobz

Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!

I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.

Haha, I like that idea! The travelin' Ork Stompa trophy....

When you say the meta, what kind of counters are you talking about? I'm curious. My own local meta is rather odd, and I'd like to know what other locations have around the country for a meta.

Also, sorry, confused by your terminology of "Sucksessful"... is that a typo, or are you saying the Green Tide will have the worse matachups?

Aha, nope, i did mean succsessful I guess it's just the internet thing...

Anywayz, i've found out that you can counter many popular powerful builds with plain numbers and positioning.
Biker-spam is directly countered with GT while they're gona be a pain for mech orks as they concentrate on a flank, take out a couple of vehicles with grav weaponry and block your path making use of their superior maneuvrability and range durability.
Grav cents.
Alpha-strike builds that rely on taking out the most essential part of your army - GT is too numerous to be taken out with an Alpha-Strike.
You can deny movement for FMC, Flyers and psychic/shooty/both FMC spam (i bet you're gona face some pentyrants) is very hard to deal with for speed freaks.

But what counters GT? Mass artillery that's not used so often due to how ineffective it is against common stuff that's met at tournaments.
Serp spam to a degree - the good part, however, is that you rarely see pure serp spam. They're often supported by wraiths and/or WWP ap2 flamers that are not so frightening to GT.
Invisible units that are gona tarpit your GT all game - well...it is a counter. But can't have a win-win everywhere, right?

Don't get me wrong - i do think that speedfreaks are a powerful army. I just find they have more hard-matchups than GT at the moment.

Entirely valid points.

As I said, this is mostly a taste decision. Honestly, I'd probably prefer to play Bully Boyz for a few reasons:

1. It's less exhausting to run at a tournament with a (potential) 9 games!
2. It's fast as hell, which means it tend to be more fun.
3. It is a definitely an MTO type of list.
4. I may run Green Tide for the Highlander tournament

However, in the end, I recognize that Green Tide may just be more competitive.

I will be playing SEVERAL test games in the next week or so before the LVO to put the Bully Boyz through one last barrage of tests. I'll be trying out my list against the following:

Grav Calv Spam White Scars
CSM Flyer spam with 3x Heldrakes, 2x Fire Raptors, and a Dredclaw
Flyrant Spam (x3) with Knight Allies
Eldar Wave Serpent Spam with a Skyshield Lynx

Also potentially a TWolf Dstar with knights, the NEWcrons with Destroyer Formation + Wraiths, and maybe even Cent Devvie-star.

If the Bully Boyz can't even come CLOSE to competing against any of these lists, then I can always fall back upon the Green Tide list (I have both armies painted and ready to go, it's just a matter of choice at this point).

I will post in this thread and let you folks know how the list fares against their opponents, and although I will be way too pressed for time before the LVO to write up full battlereports, I'll give quick synopsis' of the games.

After going over the game you and I had last saturday I feel like your list has alot of threats, but not enough ones that needed immediate dealing with.

T1 I had to simply stop the bullyboys asap, there was nothing else that really needed my attention. The mek gunz could be mitigated with proper spacing, the bustas are in too hard of transports to warrant me trying to pop them, and the boys well, they weren't going to accomplish much against my list in the first place.

Later in the game the bullyboys were still my primary concern for those same exact reasons. No matter what I could have done they would hit like a ton of bricks and move onto the next unit. After killing my stalker the bustas had no real strong targets so it was easy to simply ignore them unless i had no better target to go for which let me just point everything at the remaining bullyboys while the wraiths played cleanup with your backfield.

I might suggest taking Zhadsnark with some bikes just to give you more "in your face" high level threats early on in the game and some more mobility. That way when you have all your bullyboys about to get charged by wraiths or shot up by heavy destroyers, etc. You can still have a bunch of tough hard hitting (and imo more consistent) units that need dealing with asap or will go crazy in your opponents backfield.

At least thats what I got from our game last time, while the rest of your list may preform better than bikes in other matches I feel that if you had the bikes vs my list it would have been an easy stomp since their shooting could have mulched destroyers all on their own or put out enough wounds to down those tough wraiths before they could clean up the mek guns and boys. Because seeing what little amount of choppy power i had left after the cc with the bullyboys I doubt they would have been able to survive for very long against 30 or so bikes.

TLDR tossing in some bikes would really help in the cron matchup with those dastardly wraiths. No idea if they would be better or worse in other matchups

EDIT: probably could have worded the whole thing a bit better but I think I still got the point across.

I'll list the "LVO Prep" missions designed to test out my Bully Boyz list here. These are games I will play PRIOR to the LVO to determine the viability of taking the Bully Boyz to LVO. If the Bully Boyz can't cut it here, they certainly can't cut it at the LVO.

These will not be full battle reports, but I will quickly detail what happened in these games, which I consider likely to be the "bad matchups" against Bully Boyz.

Game 1: 1850 Bully Boyz Vs. CSM Summoning and Flyer Spam!

His List:

2x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Sorcerers
2x Squads of 15 cultists
3x Heldrakes
2x Fire Raptors with Rending
Dreadclaw w/ 5 Chosen with Melta Guns
Void Shield w/ 3x Shields.

LVO Mission 6:
Primary: Crusade (4 Objectives)
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker

This is perfect first test. My list, much like the Green Tide, doesn't have very good AA - but unlike the Green Tide, it isn't as good at board denial, so I wanted to test the bully boyz against something I considered might be a serious weakness - Flyer Spam!

As you can see, a pretty heavy handed one dimensional list - but one that does it well. 5 Freaking Flyers (6 if you include the Dreadclaw)! The Fire Raptors are gross, as they have a total of 8 BS5 str 7 shots, and 6 Str 6 shots, plus 4 ordnance missiles, with AV12 and 4 HP and RENDING! The heldrakes aren't really fun for me either, as they just demolish anything in an open topped vehicle.

Initially, I rolled warlord traits, and with the Finkin' Cap, got the one I wanted: -1 to reserves! That should help a tad. He deployed with his sorcerers on the board behind some LOS blocking terrain and next to his void shield - which would make shooting them tricky. I won the roll, and let him go first, as I wanted to be able to hit his flyers if they came to ground to score. I also reserved all of my vehicles except for my Trukks with Bully Boyz, as I wanted a chance for them to move on without getting nailed with flamers galore.

He got first blood by nailing a truck with the Meltas, and got Sacrifice on BOTH of his Sorcerers, who started pumping out heralds right away. I moved up quick and was able to deny the midfield to him (which put me in a lead at Maelstrom), and due to the -1 to reserves, most of his flyers came on piecemeal. When the Tankbustas came on, they started demolishing flyers left and right before the flamers got them. However, in the course of the game, despite that, they were able to kill a Fire Raptor, a Heldrake, and suppress the other Fire Raptor.

In the end, the fact that he controlled the air didn't really matter. With all of my threats, I was able to take down all of his heralds and squads he summoned and crush his backfield, which put me up on Maelstrom. By turn 5, despite all of his summoning, all he had left was 2 heldrakes and a Fire Raptor with 2 HP. The Meganobs proved nearly impossible to dislodge from terrain, as they were fearless with 2 wounds, a 2+, and a 4+ ruin save. This, I found, was definitely a strength of the list - they had the speed to kill the summoning units before it got out of control, and it proved MUCH harder to dislodge from certain objectives then Green Tide would have (vs this much anti-infantry flyer firepower!)

End Score: VICTORY!
Orks 9 (Primary, Secondary, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker)
CSM 1 (First Blood)

Game 2: 1850 Bully Boyz Vs. Flyrant Spam!

His List:

3x Flyrants with Brainleech, Egrubs
Dimachaeron in Tyrannocyte
15x Gaunts with Devourers in Tyrannocyte
Malanthrope
3x Mucolid Spores
1x Crone
Knight w/ Bcannon

LVO Mission 6:
Primary: Purge the Alien (KP)
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker

A tough match - but one that needed to be done. Again, my list doesn't have much AA, and Flyrants are going to be SUPER common at the LVO, so I was looking forward to testing this match out. To add difficulty to the match, it was Killpoints - and while I give up KP easily, my opponent does not.

I ended up getting the roll to go first and let my opponent go first because I wanted to test this match in the worst possible situation (e.g. he's already in the air). I even rolled a 6 to seize and still gave it up, again for the same reason!

My opponent's dice for vehicles were friggen awesome, and anything he shot at with an AV value died pretty quick. This was partially my fault - I hadn't blocked off the ass of my gun wagons and kill trakks, and I paid the price for it, as they died pretty damn fast. The tankbustas got off one good turn of shooting and knocked the crone and a hive tyrant to the ground, but I was only in range to charge the crone - although it died immediately.

After that, because I didn't play defensive enough with my tankbustas (and my opponent was smart enough to capitalize upon it), the tankbusta's rides blew up, and then they went kaput. From there it was downhill - without the tankbustas and my vehicles, I had little in the way of anti-air, and wasn't very effective at knocking down the tyrants. However, everything my opponent had that was on the ground died, which I controlled pretty thoroughly.

At the end of the game (we went all the way to turn 7!), he was down to 1 hive tyrant, while I was down to all 3 squads of bully boyz. Had the game been objective based, it would have firmly been within my grasp, but I just bled KP faster then my opponent did, and he was smart about capitalizing on it! I had thoroughly crushed on Maelstrom, but with my opponent getting first blood, there wasn't any way to make up the difference between primary and secondary.

This game may have been have been one of the worst possible matchups, (KP against a flyrant list against my Bully Boyz), but it still makes me question using the Bully Boyz. In nearly every game I play, I find that the Bully Boyz do amazing, it's just the rest of the Orks that are somewhat subpar. I've debated taking Traktor Kannons to combat anti-air, but I'm constantly frustrated in games where they don't have anything to shoot at - and 3 shots for nearly 100 points is pretty pricey. On the other hand, if the game had been objective based, my bully boyz had the ground forces strongly under control, and his flyrants would have never survived to landing, so I'm still debating which list to take.

End Score: DEFEAT!
Orks 5 (Secondary, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker)
Tyranids 7 (Primary, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker)


Game 3: 1850 Bully Boyz Vs. White Scars Grav Calv!

Coming soon!

Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?

Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?

Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?

Sketchyfk wrote:
Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?

Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?

Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?

The Trukks are the transports for the Meganobs. They are great at missiles (running forward and getting the Meganobz in), but man, they bleed KP like CRAZY.

The Boyz and Tankbustas, on the other hand, go into the Gun Wagons and the Big Trakks.

Good to get practice in versus the top meta lists !

I worry that if even one guard list faces off against you, with their irresistable wyverns, its going to be game over. 100 boyz is a huge target, and I think those guns could take upwards of 20 guys out a turn.

He's going with bully boyz, so wyverns aren't really an issue.

But yeah, barrages are one of the green tide's many weaknesses. Put them on top of the painboy, do like 30 wounds, and wait for him to fail his LOS and FNP. Then it's all over.

I don't think the game vs the CSM Flyer/Summoning Spam was a good test. The CSM list should have had a means of manipulating reserves rolls. That weakness alone makes it one I would not play, as it is clearly a 'Turn 2' list and cannot guarantee (or rather, does not maximize the chances) that reserves will come on in a timely fashion. Disappointing. Perhaps he could find points for a defense line and comms relay?

While it looks menacing on paper, five CSM flyers do not work THAT well together (I have been playing 2 Heldrakes and 1 Fire Raptor); they get in the way of each other and force sup-optimal positioning of the Raptors (which need to be able to fire on 3 targets to be worth their points; 2 if the targets are juicy) or reduce the impact of the drakes' template. Unless they're firing at something very long (Lynx) or spread out (Green Tide!), it's not possible to bring the Raptor's ball turrets and the nose gun to bear on the same target. I'm thinking the best mix is going to be Heldrake, Storm Eagle & Fire Raptor, rather than spam.

Unless the CSM player is willing to put drakes in hover mode to score points, there is insufficient table presence in this list (counting on summoning, perhaps?). I suppose the (ITC) secondary could be abandoned and the strategy to focus on First Blood, denying Slay the Warlord, and winning the primary?

As for your lists: I think that Green Tide is still the way to go. If the Bully Boyz' transports get wrecked/immobilized/stunned on turn one, the game would be uphill rather than downhill. And (going second) losing 2 transports to a tournament strength list seems a reasonable expectation. The green tide may be a bit on the boring side(?) but like the tide, it is irresistible.

Good luck in Vegas!

Orock wrote:I worry that if even one guard list faces off against you, with their irresistable wyverns, its going to be game over. 100 boyz is a huge target, and I think those guns could take upwards of 20 guys out a turn.

Kap'n Krump wrote:He's going with bully boyz, so wyverns aren't really an issue.

But yeah, barrages are one of the green tide's many weaknesses. Put them on top of the painboy, do like 30 wounds, and wait for him to fail his LOS and FNP. Then it's all over.

Well, keep in mind, I haven't decided I am going to take Bully Boyz - I'd like to, but only if A. they can compete and B. I can fit their transports on the plane. The purpose of these tests is to look and see if A is true, because if not, I'll just take the tide, which I KNOW can cut it!

As for barrage, in that situation, I just put the Painboy + Warboss on the bottom level of Ruins. ITC has rules that barrage only hits top floor, so while I can't avoid the damage to my boys, I can avoid the damage to my Painboy.

DCannon4Life wrote:I don't think the game vs the CSM Flyer/Summoning Spam was a good test. The CSM list should have had a means of manipulating reserves rolls. That weakness alone makes it one I would not play, as it is clearly a 'Turn 2' list and cannot guarantee (or rather, does not maximize the chances) that reserves will come on in a timely fashion. Disappointing. Perhaps he could find points for a defense line and comms relay?

While it looks menacing on paper, five CSM flyers do not work THAT well together (I have been playing 2 Heldrakes and 1 Fire Raptor); they get in the way of each other and force sup-optimal positioning of the Raptors (which need to be able to fire on 3 targets to be worth their points; 2 if the targets are juicy) or reduce the impact of the drakes' template. Unless they're firing at something very long (Lynx) or spread out (Green Tide!), it's not possible to bring the Raptor's ball turrets and the nose gun to bear on the same target. I'm thinking the best mix is going to be Heldrake, Storm Eagle & Fire Raptor, rather than spam.

Unless the CSM player is willing to put drakes in hover mode to score points, there is insufficient table presence in this list (counting on summoning, perhaps?). I suppose the (ITC) secondary could be abandoned and the strategy to focus on First Blood, denying Slay the Warlord, and winning the primary?

As for your lists: I think that Green Tide is still the way to go. If the Bully Boyz' transports get wrecked/immobilized/stunned on turn one, the game would be uphill rather than downhill. And (going second) losing 2 transports to a tournament strength list seems a reasonable expectation. The green tide may be a bit on the boring side(?) but like the tide, it is irresistible.

Good luck in Vegas!

I agree that the list could have been better, but the idea was to take a total extreme - in this case, a load of flyers - and see how the Bully Boyz do against that. He DID use Summoning, which was how he tried to control the ground game, but I was just too fast to prevent him from getting too many units out before I took out his summoners. Summoning, I think, is another weakness of green tide - put the right unit in there (say, Plague Drones), and it'll tie up my tide for a whole game turn, and prevent me from getting anywhere at all!

With that said, I'm considering taking out the Boyz in the list and adding some Bikes (this wasn't an option previously, but it is now since someone has offered to let me borrow theirs) to add to the Bully Boyz. I'll try it out likely tomorrow.

Some nice tweeks to the Tide list. Can't believe I've overlooked Gunwagons all this time! And they're no longer for sale
Might have to start converting.

Bullyboyz would be good to see.
I'm currently building up a force that includes:
Bullyboyz,
Blitz Brigade,
Mogrok's Bossboyz.

Remaining point go to a Detachment to fill in anything else needed.

No need to rely of a Warlord trait when your wagon has scout!
You gain a huge amount of characters to play with. Warboss with Stikk in one mob of Meganobz (Ws6 Nobz and a tanking boss ), KFF Mek in another, Tellyport Blasta Mek in the third (because of reasons, I love that model!), Shokk Attack Mek at the back... The possibilities are endless...
And Modrok's rules aren't bad either, and he can still be given the Thinkin' Kap (potential for sieze on a 4+ ).

But I'm going off topic...
Sounds like anti-air is your main problem. How have the KMK Mek Gunz faired with the Bullyboyz? You're not lacking in AP2 with all those Klaws, and Traktor Kannons are great from grounding FMC's (grounding tests reduced to a 6+).

 grendel083 wrote:
Some nice tweeks to the Tide list. Can't believe I've overlooked Gunwagons all this time! And they're no longer for sale
Might have to start converting.

Bullyboyz would be good to see.
I'm currently building up a force that includes:
Bullyboyz,
Blitz Brigade,
Mogrok's Bossboyz.

Remaining point go to a Detachment to fill in anything else needed.

No need to rely of a Warlord trait when your wagon has scout!
You gain a huge amount of characters to play with. Warboss with Stikk in one mob of Meganobz (Ws6 Nobz and a tanking boss ), KFF Mek in another, Tellyport Blasta Mek in the third (because of reasons, I love that model!), Shokk Attack Mek at the back... The possibilities are endless...
And Modrok's rules aren't bad either, and he can still be given the Thinkin' Kap (potential for sieze on a 4+ ).

But I'm going off topic...
Sounds like anti-air is your main problem. How have the KMK Mek Gunz faired with the Bullyboyz? You're not lacking in AP2 with all those Klaws, and Traktor Kannons are great from grounding FMC's (grounding tests reduced to a 6+).

I love the KMKs - they just do a lot for me sometimes when I need the AP2.

As for the Traktor Kannons - if I knew the meta was flyer heavy I'd take em. I just get so frustrated with a unit that can end up going a whole game doing NOTHING at all when the opponent has no flyers! Especially when it's 3 shots for 100 points!

With that said, I am strongly considering taking them....

 Fxeni wrote:
I love the KMKs - they just do a lot for me sometimes when I need the AP2.

As for the Traktor Kannons - if I knew the meta was flyer heavy I'd take em. I just get so frustrated with a unit that can end up going a whole game doing NOTHING at all when the opponent has no flyers! Especially when it's 3 shots for 100 points!

Understandable, they work well on Skimmers also, but yes it's a pain when there's nothing to shoot.

The "volume of fire" approach you seem to be going for with Rokkits is good. Still, throwing options at you that you may not have considered may help.
So Smasha Gunz? They lack the Blast of the KMK sadly, but are boosted by AP1. Str is a bit random, but generally higher than a Zzap. Can be used on Flyers where the KMK can't, Ammo Runts will help of course (getting a Skyfire nexus can never be relied on) and like the KMK will have a use each game.

I'd love to play Manz... Hoping you can swing a really mean stick !

So after some playtesting and some thought, I've updated the lists somewhat.



LIST ONE: The Green Tide (V 2.0)


* "Green Tide Formation"
94x Boyz
6x Nobz with Klaws

* Warboss warlord
* 'Eavy Armour
Power Klaw

Orks: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +
* Warboss
Gift: Da Lucky Stikk ,
* 'Eavy Armour, Bosspole
Power Klaw

* Painboy

+ Elites +

* 8x Tankbusta

* 8x Tankbusta

* 5x Tankbusta

+ Troops +
* 10x Gretchin
* Runtherd

* 10x Gretchin
* Runtherd

+ Fast Attack +
* Deffkopta
Choppa, Twin-linked Rokkits

+ Heavy Support +
* Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram

* Mek Gunz
3x Ammo Runt
* 2x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* 1x Traktor Kannon w/ Grots

* Mek Gunz
3x Ammo Runt
* 2x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* 1x Traktor Kannon w/ Grots

THOUGHTS ON LIST:

I went BACK on my original decision and decided to remove the Big Bosspole again. There's a couple reasons for this. 1st, I forgot that without the Big Bosspole, I can't GtG, which can be a big deal in certain missions where I just need to outlive something after sitting on an objective. 2nd, I needed the 20 points back really bad, and although I really, really, REALLY hate Fear, I will just have to deal with it. 3rd, it occurs to me that the Warboss will likely die in a challenge, and when he does, there goes the fearless.

I changed a few others things though. The squad of boyz in the Gun Wagon wasn't really doing me any favors, so I swapped it back to Tankbustas. The small group of 5x goes in the Gun Wagon closest to the front, and since that vehicle nearly almost ALWAYS dies quickly, it's not a big loss. However, 5 tankbustas is still enough to scare the gak out of vehicles.

I also swapped the Big Mek to a Warboss. Although I love the Killsaw, without the KFF, the Warboss is just better.

I also divvied my KMK squad into two small squads of 2 (four total), losing one KMK, but also gained 2 Traktor Kannons. These aren't really for killing flying vehicles (as one shot won't do much), but rather FMCs. Important Note: Traktor Kannons don't need to do an UNSAVED wound to cause the -3 to grounding checks, only a WOUND - so as long as the FMC takes a wound from somewhere and you hit with a kannon, it's likely coming down. Two of these guns is more then enough to take down an FMC a turn (esp with the Tankbustas firing in the air as well).


LIST TWO: Bully Boyz & Co. (V 2.0)


* "Bully Boyz Formation"
4x PK Meganobz
1x w/ Killsawz
Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha, Ram

4x PK Meganobz
1x w/ Killsawz
Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha, Ram

4x PK Meganobz
1x w/ Killsawz
Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha, Ram

Orks: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) Selections:


+ HQ +

* Warboss
Bosspole, Gift: Da Lucky Stikk,
* Bike, PowerKlaw

* Zhardsnark, Da Rippa


+ Elites +
* 8x Tankbusta

* 7x Tankbusta

+ Troops +
* 10x Gretchin
* Runtherd

* 10x Gretchin
* Runtherd


+ Fast Attack +

10x Warbikers, 1x Nob w/ Klaw


+ Heavy Support +
* Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram

* Mek Gunz
5x Ammo Runt
* 5x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots

* Mek Gunz
3x Ammo Runt
* 2x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* 1x Traktor Kannon w/ Grots

THOUGHTS ON LIST:

All that has really remained consistent throughout my iterations of this list has been my Bully Boyz. 5 of them, 1 with killsaw, in a Trukk, do exactly the job I want them to do, and they do it well. However, after several games of testing, it is clear the rest of the list needs some tweaks. Everything else is fragile, and when the vehicles go down (and with so much shooting in 7ed, they WILL go down), I'm often stuck footslogging it. I've tried it with 3 warbosses, with multiple vehicles filled with boys, and other combinations, and each time I am dissapointed. With how fragile boys and tankbustas are, that doesn't bode well for them when their transport goes kaput. The Bully Boyz, despite how slow they are, can often easily make it through the firepower, and often do to the other side to krump some face - but 600 points of awesomeness doesn't really justify the other 1200 points of mediocrity.

The above list has showed promise though. Unlike the vehicle spam, the bikes are fast and can't be stopped until they are dead. Zhadsnark is only there to add +1 to Jink saves (and is NOT the warlord), as if I take him as the warlord, I lose out on artillery (which is a price I'm not really willing to pay, as my Artillery has saved me MANY games). It still has the features of most of the other lists, but the list has barely been tested, which is a concern for LVO.

The other big problem is that, unlike my green tide, this list bleeds First Blood SUPER easily. Unfortunately, First Blood is ridiculously important in LVO (moreso then it should be, IMHO ), and losing it will likely cost me many games - the 1 point makes that big of a difference!

However, the Bully Boyz are looking like a great contender for Adepticon - they allow unlimited detachments, meaning I could stick the Bully Boyz in a Blitz Brigade so they get scout, add Zhardsnark for scoring bikes, or whatever else I want! Plus, Bully Boyz tend to be MUCH better at getting Maelstrom (by which I mean the entire Maelstrom table Adepticon has, not the mini one LVO runs) then the green tide. Hell, I could even run Green Tide WITH Bully Boyz ! With that said, I'll be giving the list above one last shot to see how it fares against another competitive list (this time White Scars), but unless I am SUPER DUPER impressed, Green Tide may be headed to the LVO while I tweak the Bully Boy list some more.

Stay tuned!

 Fxeni wrote:
The above list has showed promise though. Unlike the vehicle spam, the bikes are fast and can't be stopped until they are dead. Zhadsnark is only there to add +1 to Jink saves, as if I take him, I lose out on artillery (which is a price I'm not really willing to pay, as my Artillery has saved me MANY games).

Does the list need updating? There's no bikes there, and you have artillery listed.

I don't think Zhard is worth it for your style of play. He looks good on paper but that's it. I am curious as to why you don't use BWs for the Bully Boyz. I love the formation with five scouting battlewagons.

grendel083 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:
The above list has showed promise though. Unlike the vehicle spam, the bikes are fast and can't be stopped until they are dead. Zhadsnark is only there to add +1 to Jink saves, as if I take him, I lose out on artillery (which is a price I'm not really willing to pay, as my Artillery has saved me MANY games).

Does the list need updating? There's no bikes there, and you have artillery listed.

Whoopsie. Fixed. Also, to be clear - Zhard only prevents you from taking Artillery when he's your warlord, not when he's in your list.

Dozer Blades wrote:I don't think Zhard is worth it for your style of play. He looks good on paper but that's it. I am curious as to why you don't use BWs for the Bully Boyz. I love the formation with five scouting battlewagons.

I figured the 2+ cover save woulda been worthwhile to make sure the Bikes survive to hit combat. What's been your experience with him?

I would LOVE to take Blitz Brigade with my Bully Boyz, but I can't for LVO - they only allow two sources. CAD + Bully Boyz + BlitzBrigade would be 3, and isn't allowed sadly.

However, it IS legal at Adepticon....

Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.

For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.

I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.