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grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.

For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.

The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.

Waaagh 18 wrote:I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.

I have always thought the BB wasn't necessary. Let me explain why.

The Big Bosspole is 20 points. Each boy is worth 6 points. That means you'd need to lose 3.3333 boys to make up the 20 points for the Big Bosspole.

Each time you fail a pinning or morale, you take D3+3 wounds from the tide. That's an average of 5 str 4 hits with AP -. That ends up being 2.5 wounds total. After armor saves (6+) and FNP (5+) that comes down to 1.38888 wounds for each failed morale/pinning check.

So, if I lose 1.38~ boys each time, I'd need to fail leadership 2.41 times to make up for the cost of the Bosspole. (3.333 boys divided by 1.38 wounds taken).

Leadership 9 is failed only 1/6th of the time. So, that means that only after 6*2.41 = 14.46 total leadership checks would I make up the cost of the bosspole.

Taking nearly 15 morale/pinning checks with the Green Tide is very, very uncommon. FEAR checks, on the other hand, are something that I have LONG loathed and would take the Big Bosspole for, and I would love to ignore fear. OTOH, the ability to GtG in ruins for a 3+ or for a 2+ with a mysterious objective that adds 1 to my cover save could also make the difference between victory and defeat (such as holding the relic).

Again, if I had an extra 20 points laying around in this list, I would take it. However, as it is, the Tide just doesn't have the points to spare without giving something more useful up IMO.

I like both of the new lists and like you I think the greentide is better for LVO whereas bullyboyz is better for adepticon.
On the greentide list I wish you could fit in more support to the the list preferably 10-15 lootas could really help with its firepower and range. It seems a lot of points are place into gunwagon tankbustas. And while I love tankbustas as well they are much more niche target then lootas.

I'm not sure I get why you combine kmk with traktor cannons. You're not going to be able to hit a fmc without skyfire with the kmk blast. So your wasting 4 shots. I dunno it feels like 4 kmk and 2 traktor cannons would be more flexible. Unless I'm missing something.

 Fxeni wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.

For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.

The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.

True, but there is still an abundance of Ignores Cover about. Any Tau and that save is gone. And being able to extend that invulnerable to a nearby vehicle is a nice bonus.

But it all comes down to what works best for your style. Play testing is king

Q: do bikes in general get +1 to jink when turbo boosting (e.g., Marines, etc.) ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Q: do bikes in general get +1 to jink when turbo boosting (e.g., Marines, etc.) ?

No, it's an Ork Warbike thing.

 Fxeni wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.

For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.

The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.

Waaagh 18 wrote:I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.

I have always thought the BB wasn't necessary. Let me explain why.

The Big Bosspole is 20 points. Each boy is worth 6 points. That means you'd need to lose 3.3333 boys to make up the 20 points for the Big Bosspole.

Each time you fail a pinning or morale, you take D3+3 wounds from the tide. That's an average of 5 str 4 hits with AP -. That ends up being 2.5 wounds total. After armor saves (6+) and FNP (5+) that comes down to 1.38888 wounds for each failed morale/pinning check.

So, if I lose 1.38~ boys each time, I'd need to fail leadership 2.41 times to make up for the cost of the Bosspole. (3.333 boys divided by 1.38 wounds taken).

Leadership 9 is failed only 1/6th of the time. So, that means that only after 6*2.41 = 14.46 total leadership checks would I make up the cost of the bosspole.

Taking nearly 15 morale/pinning checks with the Green Tide is very, very uncommon. FEAR checks, on the other hand, are something that I have LONG loathed and would take the Big Bosspole for, and I would love to ignore fear. OTOH, the ability to GtG in ruins for a 3+ or for a 2+ with a mysterious objective that adds 1 to my cover save could also make the difference between victory and defeat (such as holding the relic).

Again, if I had an extra 20 points laying around in this list, I would take it. However, as it is, the Tide just doesn't have the points to spare without giving something more useful up IMO.

That is very impressive logic. I'm impressed. However, I still think you should have it to deal with fear and stop mob rule, especially if you consider how you want to hide your Warboss at the back, so his PK isn't as effective. Boyz are pretty weak fighters after the initial charge into combat. (Fire warrior strength), and fear really debilitates them. Let's just look at the change in effectiveness of 5 Boyz fighting a MEQ with and without fear in play.

Without fear (no charge benefits):
15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, about .83 get through armor.

With fear:
15 attacks, 5 hits, 1.66 wounds, about .55 get through armor.

That's about 34% less effective! and so that one fear check you fail can stall the tide if you multi charge some units. Keep in mind also that some units can lower your leadership (Deldar is the only one I can think of now), and that makes it easier for you to fail morale and fear.

grendel083 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.

For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.

The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.

True, but there is still an abundance of Ignores Cover about. Any Tau and that save is gone. And being able to extend that invulnerable to a nearby vehicle is a nice bonus.

But it all comes down to what works best for your style. Play testing is king

Yeah, 100% agreed! And that's one of the reasons I'll prolly end up playing Green Tide. The Bully Boy list (clearly) still needs tweaking and testing, and with so little time left before LVO, I highly doubt I will feel comfortable enough with the list to take it instead of Green Tide.

gungo wrote:I like both of the new lists and like you I think the greentide is better for LVO whereas bullyboyz is better for adepticon.
On the greentide list I wish you could fit in more support to the the list preferably 10-15 lootas could really help with its firepower and range. It seems a lot of points are place into gunwagon tankbustas. And while I love tankbustas as well they are much more niche target then lootas.

I'm not sure I get why you combine kmk with traktor cannons. You're not going to be able to hit a fmc without skyfire with the kmk blast. So your wasting 4 shots. I dunno it feels like 4 kmk and 2 traktor cannons would be more flexible. Unless I'm missing something.

I agree it is somewhat odd, but this way both sets of artillery get to shoot at something (either flyers or ground forces). If I take the Traktor Kannons alone in one unit, they can only fire at one FMC. With two in two different units, I can potentially take down two. I agree that it potentially wastes shots, but it also means that both units of artillery will ALWAYS be able to fire at something.

It's definitely not ideal, I agree, but I'm trading efficiency for utility - both units of Artillery are flexible this way.

Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.

For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.

The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.

Waaagh 18 wrote:I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.

I have always thought the BB wasn't necessary. Let me explain why.

The Big Bosspole is 20 points. Each boy is worth 6 points. That means you'd need to lose 3.3333 boys to make up the 20 points for the Big Bosspole.

Each time you fail a pinning or morale, you take D3+3 wounds from the tide. That's an average of 5 str 4 hits with AP -. That ends up being 2.5 wounds total. After armor saves (6+) and FNP (5+) that comes down to 1.38888 wounds for each failed morale/pinning check.

So, if I lose 1.38~ boys each time, I'd need to fail leadership 2.41 times to make up for the cost of the Bosspole. (3.333 boys divided by 1.38 wounds taken).

Leadership 9 is failed only 1/6th of the time. So, that means that only after 6*2.41 = 14.46 total leadership checks would I make up the cost of the bosspole.

Taking nearly 15 morale/pinning checks with the Green Tide is very, very uncommon. FEAR checks, on the other hand, are something that I have LONG loathed and would take the Big Bosspole for, and I would love to ignore fear. OTOH, the ability to GtG in ruins for a 3+ or for a 2+ with a mysterious objective that adds 1 to my cover save could also make the difference between victory and defeat (such as holding the relic).

Again, if I had an extra 20 points laying around in this list, I would take it. However, as it is, the Tide just doesn't have the points to spare without giving something more useful up IMO.

That is very impressive logic. I'm impressed. However, I still think you should have it to deal with fear and stop mob rule, especially if you consider how you want to hide your Warboss at the back, so his PK isn't as effective. Boyz are pretty weak fighters after the initial charge into combat. (Fire warrior strength), and fear really debilitates them. Let's just look at the change in effectiveness of 5 Boyz fighting a MEQ with and without fear in play.

Without fear (no charge benefits):
15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, about .83 get through armor.

With fear:
15 attacks, 5 hits, 1.66 wounds, about .55 get through armor.

That's about 34% less effective! and so that one fear check you fail can stall the tide if you multi charge some units. Keep in mind also that some units can lower your leadership (Deldar is the only one I can think of now), and that makes it easier for you to fail morale and fear.

Yup, and now you know why I hate fear.

Again, if I could find the 20 points for BB, I'd take it, but the list is already tight enough as it is. =/

I love your green tide list man! I'm hoping you go all the way to 1st place at the LVO.

To think I used to think orks couldn't be competitive... Glad I was wrong!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you want ideas for lists to playtest against?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Q: do bikes in general get +1 to jink when turbo boosting (e.g., Marines, etc.) ?

No, it's an Ork Warbike thing.

Darn warboss...

 Fxeni wrote:
Again, if I could find the 20 points for BB, I'd take it, but the list is already tight enough as it is. =/

It's very tight on points.

Does the second Warboss need a Bosspole? It's going to make no use until the tide is down to 10 models.
Boarding planks on the Gunwagons: do you really make long range charges with the Tankbustas?

If these aren't needed, there's your 20pts.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:I love your green tide list man! I'm hoping you go all the way to 1st place at the LVO.

To think I used to think orks couldn't be competitive... Glad I was wrong!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you want ideas for lists to playtest against?

Normally, I'd love ideas - but I'm all out of time to playtest for the LVO! Perhaps for Adepticon, eh?

grendel083 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:
Again, if I could find the 20 points for BB, I'd take it, but the list is already tight enough as it is. =/

It's very tight on points.

Does the second Warboss need a Bosspole? It's going to make no use until the tide is down to 10 models.
Boarding planks on the Gunwagons: do you really make long range charges with the Tankbustas?

If these aren't needed, there's your 20pts.

Second warboss has a BP so that he can join the Tankbustas in a charge if need be (especially against, say, a Knight) and keep them alive for a critical turn.

Boarding planks are friggen AMAZING for 5 points. I can't tell you how many times they've made a long distance charge happen. The 15 pts on battlewagons is meh, but the 5 points in forgeworld is golden.

I'd run a squad of stormboyz. ~10 guyz with a pk+bp nob. I often do in my games with footsloggas.

1. You field stormboyz and the opponent goes like: "Eh, stormboyz, noone fields them i guess they're another bad ork unit".
2. You explain their rules (if you want; not mandatory in tournaments unless the opponent asks you, i guess?..). And the opponent goes like: "So, they're just boyz with rokkit packs that kill themselves? Nice".
2. You run them out of harm's way - either behind blos or heavy cover - they're not so hard to hide even behind a truck not telling about a ruin.
3. You perform a ~25" charge with a bunch of boyz + pk nob and the opponent goes like: Or you fail miserably rolling a ton of , loose too many guyz to DT and fail morale running away and go like:

From my experience, they're often good as they can pull a charge at 12" + 2d6" + 2d6" with 1 reroll. With the first 12" flying over things. This alone makes them a great board controle tool especially for a greentide with every turn WAAAGH!

 koooaei wrote:
I'd run a squad of stormboyz. ~10 guyz with a pk+bp nob. I often do in my games with footsloggas.

1. You field stormboyz and the opponent goes like: "Eh, stormboyz, noone fields them i guess they're another bad ork unit".
2. You explain their rules (if you want; not mandatory in tournaments unless the opponent asks you, i guess?..). And the opponent goes like: "So, they're just boyz with rokkit packs that kill themselves? Nice".
2. You run them out of harm's way - either behind blos or heavy cover - they're not so hard to hide even behind a truck not telling about a ruin.
3. You perform a ~25" charge with a bunch of boyz + pk nob and the opponent goes like: Or you fail miserably rolling a ton of , loose too many guyz to DT and fail morale running away and go like:

From my experience, they're often good as they can pull a charge at 12" + 2d6" + 2d6" with 1 reroll. With the first 12" flying over things. This alone makes them a great board controle tool especially for a greentide with every turn WAAAGH!

I haven't actually been able to give Stormboyz a chance yet because I don't own any models - but man, I want to. That sounds absolutely hilarious either way.

Why not aim for 1st place? Seems like you were selling yourself short.

Why don't you take a vsg with the green tide list. The way LVO rules it as long as one model is within 12in range of the vsg the entire tide is protected by the vsg. Seems pretty broken to me considering the vsg keeps repairing itself. Meaning your tide is going to be very well protected from blasts such as a wyvern which can't crack the vsg and any shooting attacks. I'm not really sold on the price of gunwagons. You can afford a vsg with just dropping the gun wagons to big trakks again. You can also get 20 points for a big boss pole by taking your powerklaw off the greentide warlord and making it a big choppa. You already state he mostly sits in the back to be safest of the time and str5+2 with furious charge is a respectable str 8 ap5 melee of needed or keep it if you want 8 klaws either way works. I think the vsg w two shields protecting the tide and the Mek guns will push your tide list into the top tier and extra av13 armour means less anti tank will be used at the big trakks.

frboals wrote:Why not aim for 1st place? Seems like you were selling yourself short.

Of course I'm aiming for 1st place, if possible! I'd just like to shoot for top 8 (or top 10%) at a minimum with the list. At that point, either way I'll consider the army a success!

gungo wrote:Why don't you take a vsg with the green tide list. The way LVO rules it as long as one model is within 12in range of the vsg the entire tide is protected by the vsg. Seems pretty broken to me considering the vsg keeps repairing itself. Meaning your tide is going to be very well protected from blasts such as a wyvern which can't crack the vsg and any shooting attacks. I'm not really sold on the price of gunwagons. You can afford a vsg with just dropping the gun wagons to big trakks again. You can also get 20 points for a big boss pole by taking your powerklaw off the greentide warlord and making it a big choppa. You already state he mostly sits in the back to be safest of the time and str5+2 with furious charge is a respectable str 8 ap5 melee of needed or keep it if you want 8 klaws either way works. I think the vsg w two shields protecting the tide and the Mek guns will push your tide list into the top tier and extra av13 armour means less anti tank will be used at the big trakks.

I like the idea of the VSG, but I've never actually tested it with the Green Tide - and I don't like going in cold to a GT with army lists that I haven't tested. VSG might see my list another time, but until I test it out in a couple games, I am not sure that I would be willing to trust it.

I'd be curious to know if other people who have run the Green Tide have had any luck with VSGs?

The VSG cannot move thus making it pointless IMO for GT .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The VSG cannot move thus making it pointless IMO for GT .

Definitely not pointless. It's basically broken for things like the tide. Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av12 regenerating shield vs shooting. I am sure you can figure out that it's not terribly hard to chain a line of Orks within 1 ft of your deployment zone. This basically makes tide immune to shooting until 1-3 av12 shields are shot down and each turn they can regenerate back up on a 5+.

And remeber all you need it for is to protect the tide until it reaches combat and then once locked in combat they are immune to shooting anyway and the vsg can still protect your Mek gunz, lootas, or whatever else is supporting your tide.

I haven't used the vsg but I was reading jyt necron nid list and they were talking about the vsg being huge for large units like greentide at the LVO and it reminded me how broken that rule was in LVO by allowing the shield to effect an entire unit as long as one model was in range. This is probably not how most people play it but it is how LVO allows it.

I'd rather play more aggressively with the Green Tide. They are a board control unit. To me the GT and VSG are assymmetrical in relation to each other.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'd rather play more aggressively with the Green Tide. They are a board control unit. To me the GT and VSG are assymmetrical in relation to each other.

I don't see how it's any less aggressive unless you consider the at max 6 ork conga line as not aggressive when the rest of the tide is in your enemy deployment zone and still covered by av13 shielding vs shooting no matter how close they are to ur tide. Heck vsg even protects against overwatch shooting. It's not without its limit since all the enemy needs to do is shoot at targets while within 12in of the vsg building to completely ignore it but that's not how the tide works and forced your opponent to run toward the tide and your deployment zone in order to do that. To be fair LVO is the only US tourney that allows the vsg and probably for good reason too.

gungo wrote:
[Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.

I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.

Good luck buddy. I'll see you at the LVO!

 grendel083 wrote:

gungo wrote:
[Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.

I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.

Ya I meant you can place it up to your deployment zone line and still have another 12in range. Either way he is not bringing it since he hasn't played with it before but it's a strong setup if allowed.

jy2 wrote:
Good luck buddy. I'll see you at the LVO!

You too, Jy2! I'm really hoping I get to play you - I'm sure it would be a hell of a fun game!

Plus challenging you for a spot on Team Zero Comp also sounds equally fun!

gungo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

gungo wrote:
[Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.

I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.

Ya I meant you can place it up to your deployment zone line and still have another 12in range. Either way he is not bringing it since he hasn't played with it before but it's a strong setup if allowed.

So, it actually turns out a friend contacted me last minute for one last playtest before LVO - tomorrow morning. I will give the VSG a shot and see how it goes. Maybe I'll take it? I guess we'll see.

I think you'll really like the VSG. The most important thing about it is that it will protect your boys from small-arms fire, which is what would kill them the most.

Wow, seems like a good combo unless someone brings ranged S: D. Not that it's a super-duper all-game long protection but it definitely helps out on the first turn at least. Unfortunately, it's not so hard for the opponent to take down a bunch of av12 HP with just one round of shooting. I think, something like a group of broadsides + a little bit of something can handle it. Though, be careful cause it also offers protection for your opponent if he happens to be within 12'.

That and one high strength blast would quickly negate the shield and kill a bunch of boyz. Against a Demo Cannon you are probably only saving 1 or 2 boyz.

 Geemoney wrote:
That and one high strength blast would quickly negate the shield and kill a bunch of boyz. Against a Demo Cannon you are probably only saving 1 or 2 boyz.

Blasts count just as one hit to a voidshield. No matter how many models they touch. So, if a deathstrike covers 1 boy or 30 boyz, it's still just 1 hit against a void shield.

Korps of Krieg and Renegades&Heretics (as a generic renegades&heretics list is basically the same krieg artillery spam but with chaos marks) cry in corner.

Ahh...it is in the GW FAQ, I thought for sure they wouldn't bother to clarify that. I was looking through the ITC FAQ.

That makes it feel broken for 50pt. Thanks for correcting me.

It's still ~5 times easier to destroy than a 50 pt necron flying bug-spider


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do you think about putting meganobz in gun wagons instead of boyz? Think they'd attract much more fire. Furthermore, you're gona get obsec trucks for boyz.

Think bully boyz can do it without indeps.