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2015/03/12 02:16:21
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 3 Completed, pg8!)
shyzo wrote: One more question for Fxeni: how do you deal with long range, high strength, low AP shooting? Like Lascannons, Railguns, etc.
Glumly pick up a boy, pat him on the head and gently place that single model back in your case.
Hey whoa, I get a cover save first.
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/12 02:18:25
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 3 Completed, pg8!)
Nah, if that was his big move, I'd totally give it to my opponent.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2015/03/12 05:47:45
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 3 Completed, pg8!)
Sorry for the delay, folks! I've been SUPER busy the last few days, and in addition, Adepticon is only in a week, so I've had some other priorities! However, the Battle Reports are still coming - I promise!
Las Vegas Open 2015: Game 4
It's a fresh day, and I am pumped! I'm currently tied with one other person for max points (30/30). Which no doubt means that my opponent's list is likely similarly brutal to the Green Tide. But I guess we'll find out, won't we?
I head to my table, and waiting there is...
Chris Morris' Oldcrons!!
Chris' name was familiar to me, but I couldn't place it until I found out that he made Top 8 at LVO last year. Holy cats! Looks like I'm in for a tough fight. Wouldn't have it any other way!
Chris' list:
Overlord w/ MSS, Phase Shifter, Rez Orb, Semp Weave, Phaeron, Warscythe, and Solar Thermaite
2x 5x man Warriors
5x Wraiths, 1 Whip Coil
5x Wraiths, 1 Whip Coil
1x Tomb Blade w/ Tesla Carbine
Anni Barge
Anni Barge
3x Sentry Pylons with Focussed Death Ray
Oybron
Necron Warriors
Anni Barge
VSG w/ 3x shields
Primary: Scouring
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Hm.....that's it?
I must admit, that upon first viewing Chris' list I was a bit perplexed. I've played against many many many armies, including Oldcrons (hell, I RUN Oldcrons) but the list seemed weak to me. Eh, I had heard about the Sentry Pylons, sure, and I knew about the Sentry Pylon deathstar, but I had never played against it. But...how bad could it be? He has to deepstrike around, risking a mishap, it only has 24" range, and it's no worse then a Death Scythe. Didn't seem that scary to me, at least.
Spoiler:
HOLY feth WAS I WRONG
Just as a quick note to you guys: things started getting intense in this round and the following ones throughout the day, so I kinda spaced on taking pictures. There are still some, but I was so into my games that I didn't take nearly as many as I should have - sorry about that! I'll do better next time, I promise.
Anyways, we roll off and such, Chris sets up his army basically on the line, with his Sentry Pylons stretched out and his Overlord and Obryon in the front of them. I do similarly, with my boys on the line, but just a bittttt farther then 24" from his Artillery Star - it doesn't scare me that much, but I'd like to mitigate the damage it can do if possible. I mean, it's still Str 10 Ap 1 after all.
Chris takes the first turn, and we begin.
Early Game:
Let's play a fun little game, shall we? Everytime it turns out I was super, duper, crazily wrong about the Artillery Deathstar, I will do a "Fxeniwasdumb count". Let's keep track!
So, first of all, I'm well aware of the fact that with Phaeron that the Artillery can move up and shoot, so Chris moves it up just a few inches. He kind of hangs the rest of his guys out in the back behind the ruins, and plinks away with his Anni Barges and such. His wraiths also sit back. He plays it pretty conservative!
Annnnnnd theeeeeeeeeeen the shooting starts.
FXENIWASDUMB#1, 2, 3, and 4!
Spoiler:
1. Sooooo it turns out that the Sentry Pylons aren't range 24". They're range 24"+3d6. So my moving a bit back to mitigate damage from his shooting doesn't do gak! 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
3. It also turns out that Sentry Pylons don't do ONE HIT per model under the line, but TWO. So when Chris rolls a 10" (about average) line and draws it across 7 boys, that means that he does 7 x 2 x 3(per pylon) = Forty Two fething Hits on my Boys at Str 10 AP 1. HOLY GORK AND MORK 4. It also turns out that since the line isn't technically a template, the LVO ruled that EVERY hit goes against the VSG. Meaning that with a blast (which normally hits 6-7 guys, but only hits the VSG once), it's no big deal, but with Chris' Sentry Pylons, he only loses about 6 of his 42 hits against my boys in taking down my Void Shield Generator. WHAT? WHAAAAAAAAT?
So, at the end of all this, Chris does something like 35 wounds. Due to cover saves (I had stealth from Night Fight and SOME ruins saves) he kills something like 25 boys with ONE. UNITS. SHOOTING.
Sooooooo this game just went from interesting to horrifying - suddenly Chris' perfect score of 30 makes complete and total sense.
So it's the bottom of turn 1 and I've already lost 1/4th of my Tide because FXENIWASDUMB. Let's see if we can make it up!
I have one, complete, total objective in mind: I need to get that friggen' Sentry Star in combat ASAP so it can't shoot me. THAT, or I need to BE in combat where I can't get shot. I can't keep this up!
So I move the boys up and with a decent run basically get as many guys into ruins as I can. This is one of those times that I am 100% A-OK with slowing myself down a bit so I can get cover saves. Furthermore, my warlord was lucky enough to roll MTC Ruins and Stealth Ruins, which helps a LOT in this particular scenario.
Meanwhile, despite Chris' BRUTAL turn of shooting, I decide to keep everything else back (including the Tankbustas) I'm keenly waiting for my shot at first blood, which I feel like will be key in this situation. I shoot him with my KMKs, putting a couple wounds onto his Warlord, and my tankbustas force a jink on his Barges, but beyond that, I don't do any damage.
So we go to turn 2, and I just clench at the thought of being shot again by Chris' Pylons
Chris, however, decides to go a different route this time. He moves both of his Wraith squads riiiiiiight up to my Tide and prepares to charge me. He then shoots behind my tide, hitting my Gun Wagon Squad and an Artillery Squad. He blows up one wagon (as I kept the other out of LOS ) and Chris murders the other artillery down to just grots, which promptly start falling back.
He then charges me with BOTH squads of Wraiths.
Spoiler:
And I am 100% okay with this! 7ed Wraiths, with their T5, can be really rough for me, but T4 wraiths, with all of my klaws, are easy peasy. Plus, as a bonus, I can't get shot here! Perfect!
So after the first round of combat is done, Chris kills some boys, but he takes more then he gives, and he's down to about 3-4 wraiths in each squad.
And now...the opportunity for First Blood Arises!
My remaning squad of tankbustas move up, get outta their rides, and with the WAAAGHH roll, get into two of his Anni barges, making them go POOF, and earning me first Blood! Chris debates this at first, claiming he got first blood on my Gun Wagon, until I remind him that it's a squadron, and he has to kill both for First Blood.
We go back to punching in the Wraiths vs. the Tide...
Spoiler:
And again, it goes well for me. My klaws put another serious dent in the squad of Wraiths, leaving him with just 1-2 left. Perfect! That means I'll get out of combat on his turn, giving me the chance to charge his stupid Pylons!
Mid-Game: So now it's Chris' turn again, and I'm feeling much safer now that I'm in combat.
Then Chris tells me he shoots my tide again, doing another 42 hits.
........
Wait, what?
FXENIWASDUMB#5
Spoiler:
So it turns out that because the Pylons don't technically "target" anything in when they shoot (as they just draw a line), they can shoot anything, anytime, and anywhere - including into Close Combat.
I was utterly flabbergasted by this but the judges confirmed that that is how it was being ruled, so I merely had to take it.
Spoiler:
Fortunately for me, I get my cover saves. Or do I? This time it is Chris' turn to contest, saying that you cannot get cover saves in close combat, but the judges rule that you only cannot take cover saves against a close combat attack, allowing me to take my cover saves against his Pylons. This is HUGE, as it allows me several 3+ cover saves to help mitigate the damage. However, despite that, I still end up losing another 30 or so boyz! HOLY GORK.
So, after that, I NEED NEEED NEEEEEEEEED to be out of Combat here. Apparently it isn't safe with the Wraiths (again, see Fxeniwasdumb#5 ) and I need to charge his Friggen' Pylon-Star ASAP!
So we go to combat with the Wraiths ....
Spoiler:
YES! I wipe them out, allowing me to move forward!
So on my turn, I move, WAAAGHH run, and get up into Chris' grill, where his Pylon star is - right on the edge of the red ruins in this picture:
Now because of Fxeniwasdumb reasons 1-5, I have taken to asking Chris questions about the Sentry Star at this point. I learn that the squad is fearless and CANNOT be locked into combat - so I not only need to charge the Pylon star, I also need to KILL it in ONE round of combat, or it'll blast me away once again.
So, I do so....and this is it. The pivitol combat where I will either live, or I will die.
I charge in, and I first debate the issue of whether or not to challenge.
Without the challenge, Chris can tank all of my boy attacks on his Warlord who has a 2+ rerollable armor save (allthough the LVO ruled that you can only make it onto a 4+ on the second roll). This means he can absorb a LOT of damage.
If I do challenge, however, Chris can accept either with his Warlord (who cannot tank the wounds at that point) or Obryon (who has no invul, but is also the only source of Deepstriking in the list).
So I decide I want to challenge - but before I even can, Chris declares a challenge against me with his Warlord. I accept with a nob, who (naturally) gets obliterated - but because Chris cannot tank wounds onto his warlord with the 2+ rerollable, the wounds go onto Obyron first and then the Artillery. So what happens....?
Spoiler:
I roll a fair number of wounds, and Chris proceeds to roll his saves....poorly. His first three rolls are triple and Obryon goes down!!!!! His 3+ armor saves are a little better on his Pylons, but he ends up still losing 2 of them, while the last one is down to one wound.
However, I've killed so much stuff in the combat, my klaws are only in range of his warlord (which again, is in the challenge).
Spoiler:
FXENIWASDUMB#6
I totally forgot about the fact that the klaws within 2" of the Warlord are still "engaged" and can still strike, even though they'd hit the pylons before they hit the warlord. Because of this, I didn't get any Klaw strikes on the squad, and the Overlord lives with 1 wound left and the Pylon with 1 wound left.
Because I am aallllll around Varguard Obryn, he has nowhere to get up and promptly stays down. Furthermore, even though the Pylons can't be locked into combat, we are now in a very weird place.
I am fully surrounding his Warlord on all sides , preventing him from moving. Because of the combat, I am also within 1" of him too. Furthermore, because of the way wounds were allocated, his closest pylon is like 10" back - way too far to be in coherency with his warlord. So me and Chris are perplexed as to how this is handled ruleswise. So, once again, we call the judge to the table.
Spoiler:
And it turns out that Chris missed something VERY important in the ITC FAQ: Sentry Pylons can only not be locked in combat when there isn't an IC attached to them. This means that Chris is stuck in combat with my tide!!!!!!!!!
Late Game:
Spoiler:
This basically broke Chris. His wraiths are dead, he's down to a single Anni barge, a single bike, and 3 5x man warrior squads, and his reamining Sentry Deathstar is down to a single pylon with 1 wound and his overlord with one wound.
His shooting without the Pylons is uneffective, and the remaining models in the combat with my tide promptly die.
This leaves me with free reign to charge all over his backfield with the remainder of the tide, and crush his warrior units.
As a result:
Spoiler:
Orks take Primary.
Orks take Secondary.
Orks take First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker.
Orks table the oldcrons and take it 10-0.
After game thoughts:
Spoiler:
Well...that didn't go as expected.
First of all, the Pylon deathstar was WAY trickier then I thought it was. I learned about its many deadly, deadly tricks in this game, the hard way, but I was able to compensate by charging him with everything he had.
Although Chris rolled poorly on Varguard Obyron and his armor saves, resulting in the death of his pylons, it didn't matter at that point in the game: the klaws would have struck and killed Obyron, and because of the size of the tide, prevented him from getting back up. With the warlord still stuck in combat, Obyron was the only way of leaving combat (via deepstriking), and so Chris' chances basically evaporated with the charging of the Green Tide into his deathstar.
But man, what a brutal game - I can see why Chris went 30-0. He was a smart player who knew exactly how to use the tricks of his army correctly, and to deadly effect. It was fortunate that I had the speed of the tide to catch him, because without that, the game would have been lost.
So now, I am at 40 points - at max, and I'm the only player within the entire LVO who has that many points. I'm currently sitting at the top of the charts, but I am also exhausted. The complexity of the Pylons resulted in many rules debacles which required the judge's input at our table, and these sorts of things tend to be draining. Worse, I didn't have time between this round and the next to get lunch and unfortunately, the LVO didn't let me bring the food into the hall that my friends brought, so I am going into round 5 tired and hungry.
However, if I thought that this game was exhausting, it was nothing compared to my next game. However, that is a tale for next time!
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/12 06:08:31
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
shyzo wrote: Holy Gork, you perform miracles with that Green Tide! Awesome job! You've restored my faith in Orks.
What is points limit? Couldn't find it anywhere.
LVO was 1850 points, 2 detachments maximum.
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/12 06:43:00
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Man, this pylons do sound I'm happy you managed to pull it off against all odds!
Anywayz, shows us once again that it's important to know how your opponent's army functions. I often ask my opponents that bring things i'm not familliar with: "So, are there any cunning tricks?" and if he goes like: "Oh, just some stuff here and there..." and smiles humbly, i start to investigate!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 06:50:54
2015/03/12 07:19:13
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Wet Coast GT 2015 Best Overall
TSHFT 3rd Place, Best Eldar
Guardian Cup 8.5 Best General
Attack-X Best Overall
WGWB Best Overall
Tanksgiving Best Overall, Best Painted
22-2 for 2015
2015/03/12 10:18:32
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Nice win, seems like you had some good practice experience with your list. Good thing oldcrons are no longer legal.
I've never had experience with pylons either do they cause two hits or two wounds? Is that wound pooled or or model? That just sounds brutal.
It's crazy how Orks were the only lost at max points going into the 5th round.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 15:12:17
2015/03/12 18:18:19
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
gungo wrote:Nice win, seems like you had some good practice experience with your list. Good thing oldcrons are no longer legal.
I've never had experience with pylons either do they cause two hits or two wounds? Is that wound pooled or or model? That just sounds brutal.
It's crazy how Orks were the only lost at max points going into the 5th round.
Yeh that pylon trick was nasty, I mean removing 30ish boyz a turn? and its not like it was because it was AP5, that thing will decimate anything without an invun regardless.
Jpr wrote:Did you find the gunwagons invaluable? They seem to be doing some work in the games!
Yeh i would like to know your thoughts on gunwagons, recently i've been thinking they have some merit in replacement of trukks or BW's. Such a good middle ground.
Favourite Game: When your Warboss on bike wrecks 3 vehicles simply by HoW - especially when his bike is a custom monowheel.
Fxeni wrote: 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
I can't find this in the artillery or sentry pylon rules.
Am I missing something?
2015/03/12 19:26:49
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Fxeni wrote: 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
I can't find this in the artillery or sentry pylon rules.
Am I missing something?
Consider it the "Brotherhood of Deathray" house-rules.
The rules for the Sentry Pylons with regards to how they interact with the other mechanics in the game is essentially incomplete. You need to do a lot of house-ruling to streamline them into competitive play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 20:14:00
koooaei wrote:Man, this pylons do sound I'm happy you managed to pull it off against all odds!
Anywayz, shows us once again that it's important to know how your opponent's army functions. I often ask my opponents that bring things i'm not familliar with: "So, are there any cunning tricks?" and if he goes like: "Oh, just some stuff here and there..." and smiles humbly, i start to investigate!
Yeah, knowing how your opponent's army functions is 100% key to competitive play, IMHO.
Solar Shock wrote:
gungo wrote:Nice win, seems like you had some good practice experience with your list. Good thing oldcrons are no longer legal.
I've never had experience with pylons either do they cause two hits or two wounds? Is that wound pooled or or model? That just sounds brutal.
It's crazy how Orks were the only lost at max points going into the 5th round.
Yeh that pylon trick was nasty, I mean removing 30ish boyz a turn? and its not like it was because it was AP5, that thing will decimate anything without an invun regardless.
Jpr wrote:Did you find the gunwagons invaluable? They seem to be doing some work in the games!
Yeh i would like to know your thoughts on gunwagons, recently i've been thinking they have some merit in replacement of trukks or BW's. Such a good middle ground.
I LOVE Gunwagons. They just keep getting better and better to me.
A transport with one less AV on the front then a Battlewagon that can take boarding planks for 5 pts and come in squadrons, all at roughly half the price of a Battlewagon? Sign me up.
I highly recommend them for smaller squads of stuff - they are tough to kill, and make fantastic transports. However, contrary to their name, they don't make good gun platforms.
Fxeni wrote: 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
I can't find this in the artillery or sentry pylon rules.
Am I missing something?
Consider it the "Brotherhood of Deathray" house-rules.
The rules for the Sentry Pylons with regards to how they interact with the other mechanics in the game is essentially incomplete. You need to do a lot of house-ruling to streamline them into competitive play.
Man, I have never been so thrown for a loop as with the rules from the Sentry Pylon deathstar. That thing was just bizarre to play against, and the rules debates that came out of them were complicated as hell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/12 20:35:09
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/12 21:15:49
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
I want to test out big trakks and gun wagons. I'm torn since the trakks carry 12 and the wagon carries 10.
Ha ha. I know the feeling of not knowing what my opponents stuff does some times. I only play orks and only have the ork books , so some times I have to do mid game tactic changes once I realize the OH S*&T of an enemy unit.
- Neva trust a Deff Skull , gitz just wanna take yur lootz
- Only good Deff Skull iz a Ded one !
2015/03/13 05:06:51
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Fething fantastic! What a great game it goes to show that the most important thing in winning games isn't knowing your army the best but knowing everyone else's armies
I'm sure you're going to do great at Adepticon!
(Gork and Mork are so proud )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/13 05:07:44
Mr. Fxeni,
I plan on running your list against my friend who always brings Deathwing Knights and I have troubles dealing with them. What would you do if you faced them? Simply drown them in bodies or something else?
2015/03/24 21:10:13
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Just got back from Adepticon, so you can expect replies to your posts and the rest of the battle reports shortly!
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/24 21:33:50
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Fxeni wrote: Just got back from Adepticon, so you can expect replies to your posts and the rest of the battle reports shortly!
Ahaha yeh the GunWagons don't make great Gun platforms themselves, but im thinking; (primarily because I want to make gitz viable in a transport)
3 squadron
Lootas
Flash Gitz
shoota boyz
Shoota boyz go in front as the squadron requires the front wagon go down first, so they are your least juicy unit, they also act as a great unit that can disembark if anyone DS's near, so can become a meatshield that is still nasty in CC, the wagons can move at different speeds too, so the loota wagon can remain still turn 1 to allow full BS while the shoota wagon flatouts, and the gitz move 6".
Secondly, due to squadron rules, if one vehicle is assaulted, all three can overwatch as you declare the charge against the squadron and then move into B2B, So you'd have your shoota boyz, lootas and gitz all firing, which could cause some serious casualties, not to mention even if they wrecked a vehicle the other two units are still embarked and the unit who charged are most definitely not in combat... just how shooty ork units like it
looking forward to the rest of your batreps and your thoughts on the games in general
Favourite Game: When your Warboss on bike wrecks 3 vehicles simply by HoW - especially when his bike is a custom monowheel.
shyzo wrote:Mr. Fxeni,
I plan on running your list against my friend who always brings Deathwing Knights and I have troubles dealing with them. What would you do if you faced them? Simply drown them in bodies or something else?
Drown them in Boyz! They're only T5 with a 2+, so enough Ork boyz punching em will krump em good!
That, or for hilarity, you could take a Burna squadron in a battlewagon and put it next to a promethium pipe and do like 90 hits. They'll vape reaaaallly quick to that!
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/30 20:14:44
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 4 Done, p 9!)
Where are the information for Gun Wagons? They aren't looted wagons, correct? There are in Apoc8 book from what I can tell. Trying to figure out the rough stats on the interwebz but having trouble!! Thanks for any help.
2015/03/31 04:06:35
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 5 Done, p 9!)
It's game 5, and I'm already exhausted. The numerous rules arguments that I had with my last opponent have drained me heavily. Worse, I didn't have time for food, so I'm running on empty in terms of energy.
Unfortunately/Fortunately for me, I'm at max points right now - and the only person at the tournament with that much. While that means I'll likely be facing the most difficult lists LVO has to offer, it also means I have some leeway when it comes to missing points if I want to make top 8.
I see the matchups. Its another name that's familiar to me, but not someone I've played before....
Alan Bajramovic's Daemons + Tyranids!
(Okay, I totally forgot to take a picture of Alan - fortunately, google had one. That's my bad, sorry!)
Alan, also known as PJ pants, is known pretty widely as a good 40k player. I'd never had the opportunity to play him myself, but I had heard of his good placings before!
Again, sidenote: I was intensely into this game, so I didn't take many pictures...sorry!
Alan's list (from memory, may be slightly off)
Fatey
Lvl 2 LoC Lvl 2 DP 11x Horrors
10x Horrors
3x Flyrants
3x Mucolids
Primary: Modified Big Guns Never Tire
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Vanguard Strike
Alan's list doesn't really surprise me. It's a psyker list, designed to overwhelm the opponent with the ability to fly everywhere, put out a heavy amount of shooting with the flyrants, and summoning EVERYWHERE. However, while I've got no psychic defense against Alan whatsoever, I'm not worried - his list doesn't have much room to get into my backfield, I can move just about everywhere, and summoning doesn't scare my 100+ boys. Plus, I have a void shield, which helps to mitigate the damage done by the flyrants.
We roll off. Alan gets a billion powers and gifts, most of which I lost track of, but I win the roll to go first - and choose to go second. That means that Alan can't come to ground at the last second to hold objectives with his flyers - and I get to threaten him with my Green Tide if he does!
We deploy, and I spread out my tide in the field to prevent him from flying everywhere. I don't try to seize, and we begin.
Early Game:
Alan plays aggressively and immediately moves everything up. I was forced to keep my Mek Gunz at the VERY EDGE of my field to avoid a terrify he rolled, as my grots would test at a ld 4 to pass .... ouch!
Alan decides that the best way to stop me is to block me. As such, he summons a squads of Daemonettes, and the the run of d6+3 and fleet, he gets a good spread, blocking half my tide from moving forward.
Spoiler:
However, it also comes at a price... first blood!
On my turn, I move up and charge the tide into his Daemonettes, which evaporate. My Tankbusta shooting was rather mediocre, but I do force a couple jinks on his Flyrants. However, with the reroll for Fatey, it's hard as hell to bring the flyrants down so they can get charged!
The next turn is basically more of the same. Alan summons, moves up and shoots me - but with his Psychic powers, he manages to pin my Mek Guns using the Flyrants, which means grounding them isn't super likely. Damn! More Daemonettes continue to get in my way, and again I shoot, not doing much, while more Daemonettes die.
Mid Game:
Alan's plan to slow me down is working....to a degree. I'm not moving as fast as I normally do forward, but at the same time, I am gaining valuable ground. Alan's rolls on Maelstrom have been lucky so far, as he has been rolling to hold his own objective in the corner several times now, whereas my rolls have not been as good. As a result, he's leading in Maelstrom.
Here's what the table looks like.
This time, Alan summons not one, but TWO squads of Daemonettes to block me. Stupid Daemons, always getting in the way! Too bad this mission isn't KP.
He also starts to manage to whittle down my tankbusta's Gunwagons, and kill off some Tankbustas. As these are my only form of anti air besides my pinned Mek Gunz, this presents to be a problem.
However, to me, this is water under the bridge. My tide is largely untouched at this point in the game, and is making headway toward's Alan's end of the board. Furthermore, Alan is slowly but surely bleeding Flyrants (although his flying Daemons are basically untouched).
Spoiler:
Unfortunately....this is where the game turns a little sour.
By the time the clock rolls around to my turn (the bottom) of turn 4, we have about 30 or so minutes left. I ask Alan if he thinks we can do another turn, and he insists that we make time for one, as otherwise he wasn't playing like we would end on turn 4. I think this is fair, so I plan on doing so.
My tide finally breaks free of all of the Daemonettes and moves up to finally charge his backfield of Horrors, which will help me clear off the objectives. However, I need a good run to make it happen - I'm about 11 inches away.
Spoiler:
I roll a 3 to run. Not bad, but that means I now need a 8" charge to make it.
Meanwhile, in my backfield, I'm bleeding units. I'm down to a couple mek guns, a few tankbustas, and some gretchin. The gunwagons are dead, and one squad of Tankbustas isn't nearby, just the one you see in the picture.
Alan has a DP near one of my objectives, a flyrant near another, and a horror and daemonette unit near an objective in his deployment zone. The DP is near a squad of grots which are holding that objective, and the flyrant is near the other squad of grots holding the other. Because we have one more turn to go, I need to deal with all three at the same time, and kill the Horrors to contest Alan's objective to win primary 2-1.
I decide to go for it, and via spreading my Tide out, I use one of the biggest tricks the Green Tide has - a gigantic, huge, multiple charge.
This is the thing many people underestimate about the ability of the tide: it has the incredible potential to tie up things EVERYWHERE. Charging works like this in 7ed:
You choose a primary target, and secondary targets.
Overwatch occurs.
You roll your charge range. If you can reach the primary target, you make the charge.
After that, if you are able to engage an UNENGAGED primary target model, you do so. Otherwise, you must engage in combat. If you cannot do that, you must merely stay in coherency.
I declare the Flyrant (which is now on the ground) in my own table quarter as the Primary target. I then declare a Daemon Prince on the other end of the same board edge as my secondary, and then the horrors and a squad of daemonettes in the corner completely opposite the flyrant as a secondary target as well.
Remember now that I need an 8" to make this charge. With 'ere we go, it is likely, but not impossible, for me to fail.
Spoiler:
I roll a 9. BOOM BABY!
Spoiler:
As a result of that roll, I charge my tide into the Flyrant. However, because the tide is so spread out, a ton of models can't make it, so they just stay in coherency. This allows me to congo line them, which means I am also able to charge the horrors, the daemonettes, and the DP on the ground as well. I am now in combat in 3/4s of the board! HELLS YEAH!
Spoiler:
Unfortunately, this is where me and Alan get into difficulty.
Alan argues that because the Daemonettes were declared as a secondary target, as were the Horrors, that I must attempt to charge every single model into the Daemonettes that can engage an unengaged Daemonette model. If Alan is right, that means that I don't have the boyz to spare to also engage his horrors. This is important, as his horrors are holding an objective I need to win the game.
I argue that you only need to engage an unengaged model in the primary target unit - no such restriction exists in the rulebook for secondary targets. Since the flyrant is my primary target and no other boyz can get into him, that means that I can charge the horrors with no problem, as long as I engage every model I can, and I stay in coherency, and follow the rest of the rules for assaulting.
Spoiler:
This argument gets heated, as it basically determines the outcome of the game. If I can pull off this charge and kill the horrors, I will win. If I cannot, then that means I cannot stop his horrors from holding two objectives (as I also hold two as well) and we will tie on primary, and Alan will win on Secondary.
We call the judge, and even after 20 minutes of talking with the Judge, the judge is of no help and will not make a call one way or the other. As a result, because me and Alan cannot come to an agreement, we roll it off. On a 1-3, alan agrees I am right. On a 4-6, I agree Alan is right.
Spoiler:
We roll off and it's a 2. The multiple charge is a go.
Spoiler:
The combat goes, and although I don't win, Alan starts bleeding horrors to combat. However, they stick in combat for another round, but with Daemonic Instability, they will not last long, giving me the victory.
Unfortunately, because of the argument, we are basically out of time for turn 5, with something like 3 minutes left. Because Alan insisted for another round, we play on.
Alan moves Fatey and his remaning LoC around to try and contest one of the objectives in my backfield with his psychic shooting. He fires psychic screams, flickering fires, and even summons....and I go down to 2 grots without a runtherder.
Spoiler:
However, the grots pass their ld on a 5. Success!
We then go to combat again so I can try to kill the horrors. Again, if I can, I win the game on primary.
Spoiler:
And then the judges show up.
Because our argument took so long, Alan's turn has gone over time, and we are now holding up the rest of the tournament. Alan and I both try to argue with the judges that we merely need another 5-10 minutes to finish the game turn, but the judges insist we call it at that point. I tell them that it's the top of the turn, and that we will end before I get to go, which screws me over, but they do not give us any additional time.
As a result of this, I am unable to finish combat with Alan on his turn. This means that, among other things, I miss out on two rounds of combat to kill his horrors, and as a result, they stay alive to hold that objective.
This means that the horrors stay alive to contest the objective. I hold two of my own, and Alan holds his two, and because Alan has killed a squad of Mek Gunz and Gunwagons, he has 2 bonus primary points to Big Gunz never tire.
As a result:
[spoiler]Daemonids take Primary.
We tie on Secondary.
Orks take First Blood and Linebreaker.
Daemonids takes Linebreaker.
Daemonids win 5-2.
After game thoughts:
Spoiler:
I'm not going to lie. I was upset with this game.
Because of the argument with Alan, which took the rest of the remaining game time to solve, Alan got an extra turn 5, while I did not.
If I had known we were going to only go to round four, all I needed to do was charge his horror squad (rather then the hugeasscombat that happened). I would have easily wiped it out, and contested that objective, winning on primary.
Furthermore, if we had finished the full game turn of 5, I would have had two more rounds of combat to kill the horror squad. While that was no guarantee, with a horror squad against the green tide, it would have been extremely unlikely for them to not die.
Essentially, either way - if we had ended at the bottom of 4, or at the bottom of 5, I could have won. However, because we ended at the top of the turn, I was SOL.
Neither Alan nor I was happy with this outcome. We both walked away from the table very upset, for multiple and different reasons. The argument between us was intense, and because he insisted we play until turn 5, I didn't try to stop us at turn 4. We, of course, also had another argument about ending at the top of 5, where Alan argued we should just roll back the clock, whilst I said that wasn't possible and benefited him greatly.
As a result, the game left a bad taste in both my and Alan's mouth.
With that said, I shook his hand and honestly wished him luck in his next games, and he did the same to me. We actually ended playing again at Adepticon and had a fun game, and I think we buried the hatchet between us. It was just an upsetting game for us both.
So, at the end of this round, I have 42 points. Not bad, but I am 100%, totally, completely, exhausted. I have no food in me, the arguments with Alan drained the last energy from me, and I'm tired. Today has slowly been going downhill.
My greatest hope is that my last game is fun. Of course, I'm also hoping for top 8 at this point, but I'm so worn out that I don't have the energy to spare to worry about that.
I shall see you guys in round 6, for (maybe) finishing out the LVO!
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
2015/03/31 04:35:32
Subject: Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 5 Done, p 9!)
That's too bad. Alan was wrong, there is no restriction other than you must maintain coherency with the "moved" model blob. Too bad you got a bad judge, it shouldn't have taken him 20 minutes to read 1 sentence.
2015/03/31 05:14:58
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 5 Done, p 9!)
Even aside from the rules dispute being a relatively simple one, it's absolutely absurd that a judge would refuse to make a call--I say this as someone who is both personal friends with Alan and acts as a judge at multiple GTs.
The fact that this occurred on round 5 at the top table only amplifies how atrocious it is. That is literally the entire point of having judges on site, and it appears the judging team let the situation spiral out of control (again, in what should have been a rather simple call to make) because they didn't want to be the bad guy knowing the game hinged on the ruling.
And then ending a game mid-turn, partially due to the incompetence of your own judging staff and knowing it will directly alter the outcome of your whole tournament? The whole thing is a mess and it looks like you got screwed in every conceivable way as a result of it.
The goal of the judging staff should be to make sure games are disrupted as little as possible in pursuit of getting the rules right; I'd go as far to say as I'd prefer a bad call be made quickly than a good one be made after 20 minutes (if that was honestly how long it took, it hurts my brain) of deliberation. Bad calls will happen (and we usually end up discussing them amongst ourselves for the next few days when they do), but you don't have the option for a rules debate the likes of a 15-page YMDC thread on the floor at a GT. You have to make a call in a reasonable timeframe or you ruin the game by needlessly shortening it and render the whole exercise pointless in the first place.
Every major tournament should have someone willing to make that call, and everybody should know who it is. At Adepticon, it's almost always Chris (the primary 40k tournament organizer) or Jon (yakface) leading the judging team, and if you either can't find a suitable answer in a short timeframe or aren't confident enough in having the correct one, you find them and they make the call.
Top tables in particular should be a focus--if time has been called and you haven't received score sheets from your top tables, you send someone over with the authority to sort things out and make sure the game turn is finished ASAP. I genuinely cannot imagine a situation where I'd force a top table to end mid-turn like that and force a player to forfeit their entire turn, short of documented slow-play issues with the player going second. The fact that this was allowed to get to the point where it was "holding up the rest of the tournament," when a judge had already been on site for 20+ minutes, is just an absolute nightmare. You make a call and you demand people start rolling dice, no stopping, no thinking, you get the turn finished.
2015/03/31 06:01:43
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 5 Done, p 9!)
That's a pity, really. A rule arguement screwed a game over. But nevertheless, it was good experience that you can get only from bad situations such as this one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 06:03:35
2015/03/31 12:48:08
Subject: Re:Orks at the Las Vegas Open 2015 - A Table Flip Challenge, Part 2! (Game 5 Done, p 9!)
JimOnMars wrote:That's too bad. Alan was wrong, there is no restriction other than you must maintain coherency with the "moved" model blob. Too bad you got a bad judge, it shouldn't have taken him 20 minutes to read 1 sentence.
DJ3 wrote:Even aside from the rules dispute being a relatively simple one, it's absolutely absurd that a judge would refuse to make a call--I say this as someone who is both personal friends with Alan and acts as a judge at multiple GTs.
The fact that this occurred on round 5 at the top table only amplifies how atrocious it is. That is literally the entire point of having judges on site, and it appears the judging team let the situation spiral out of control (again, in what should have been a rather simple call to make) because they didn't want to be the bad guy knowing the game hinged on the ruling.
And then ending a game mid-turn, partially due to the incompetence of your own judging staff and knowing it will directly alter the outcome of your whole tournament? The whole thing is a mess and it looks like you got screwed in every conceivable way as a result of it.
The goal of the judging staff should be to make sure games are disrupted as little as possible in pursuit of getting the rules right; I'd go as far to say as I'd prefer a bad call be made quickly than a good one be made after 20 minutes (if that was honestly how long it took, it hurts my brain) of deliberation. Bad calls will happen (and we usually end up discussing them amongst ourselves for the next few days when they do), but you don't have the option for a rules debate the likes of a 15-page YMDC thread on the floor at a GT. You have to make a call in a reasonable timeframe or you ruin the game by needlessly shortening it and render the whole exercise pointless in the first place.
Every major tournament should have someone willing to make that call, and everybody should know who it is. At Adepticon, it's almost always Chris (the primary 40k tournament organizer) or Jon (yakface) leading the judging team, and if you either can't find a suitable answer in a short timeframe or aren't confident enough in having the correct one, you find them and they make the call.
Top tables in particular should be a focus--if time has been called and you haven't received score sheets from your top tables, you send someone over with the authority to sort things out and make sure the game turn is finished ASAP. I genuinely cannot imagine a situation where I'd force a top table to end mid-turn like that and force a player to forfeit their entire turn, short of documented slow-play issues with the player going second. The fact that this was allowed to get to the point where it was "holding up the rest of the tournament," when a judge had already been on site for 20+ minutes, is just an absolute nightmare. You make a call and you demand people start rolling dice, no stopping, no thinking, you get the turn finished.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it.
Don't get me wrong here - the judge was a really pleasant guy, but he was a really poor judge. It seemed like he didn't wanna make a ruling based on the fact that it would determine the top table game. He even went so far as to say there was a brand new FAQ released by GW on charging and how it works, and that multi charging was now TOTALLY different from what it was in the rulebook. I STILL have no clue what FAQ he was talking about - such an FAQ doesn't exist.
But yeah, after 20 minutes, he never did make a ruling. Really, I would have preferred a WRONG ruling over a 20+ minute NO ruling, because then at least I can try and come back from it by charging next turn (potentially).
Then, after taking 20 minutes of our time with no help whatsoever, the judges force us to end at the top of a turn?
Yeah, I was upset. It really, really soured my taste of the LVO - and unfortunately, it wasn't the only occasion where I wasn't impressed with the judges at LVO, as they were very hard to find, and my friends even had to deal with a drunk judge at one point.
I apologize if I come across as harsh to the LVO, here, but honestly, I really felt like it could have been run better IMHO.
koooaei wrote:That's a pity, really. A rule arguement screwed a game over. But nevertheless, it was good experience that you can get only from bad situations such as this one.
It wasn't really what I'd call a good experience. I've had plenty of games where a judge made a call I disagreed with, but as long as it's a quick decision, then I move right along and work past it. Here, it just ended up souring the game.
DCannon4Life wrote:How many judges were there? Did they confer with each other as standard (best) practice?
For the multi-charge thing, I believe it was the head judge and one other judge. For the end of the game, it was like 2-3 judges + Reecius that insisted we finish immediately.
2015-2016 GT Record
Iron Halo GT - 1st Place
Bay Area Open 2016 - 2nd Place
WAAAGHFEST 2016 - 1st Place
Flying Monkey 2016 - 1st Place
Adepticon 2016 - 2nd Place
Renegade GT 2015 - 1st Overall / 2nd General
Dragonfall GT 2015 - 1st Place
Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake. -Chessmaster Tartakower
There are still some, but I was so into my games that I didn't take nearly as many as I should have - sorry about that! I'll do better next time, I promise. 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
)
3500
More Daemonettes continue to get in my way, and again I shoot, not doing much, while more Daemonettes die.
Too bad this mission isn't 