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Target wrote: 3) Relic auto-drops when moved over 6 inches, at the point where the unit started. Even if allowed to do 1 and 2 (which are clearly against the rules), by embarking via that access point your unit would now be inside the building (which is over 6 inches away, more likely 12) and would autodrop at the escape hatch.
This is the only part I disagree with. You're embarked in the building - that's allowed.
The fact that it's the escape hatch access point doesn't matter - you were allowed to embark.
Actually, this one is tricky and I understand why it's confusing, but rigeld2 is correct.
To embark into a building, you simply move to within 2" of one of it's access points. If a 5" move will take you to within 2" of the Escape Hatch, then you've only moved 5".
I think what most people are doing is using this bit, also from the embarkation rules... "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles's hull." Replace vehicle with building as we're dealing with buildings.
They're using it in conjunction with "the model carrying the Relic cannot Run and can never move more than 6" in any phase. If it is forced to do so, the Relic is immediately dropped." So, if my model started HERE and I measure to the building's hull to see where it ended the phase, it clearly moved that far, right? Not even a little.
In the above example, the model only moved 5". Embarkation is embarkation. It's not movement, is never defined as movement and doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Relic's restriction on movement.
TL: DR; - Embarkation isn't movement, so if your Relic holding model can get to an access point by moving 6" or less, he or she can embark with no issue, regardless of how far away the access point is from the actual building. In the case of an Escape Hatch, this can easily result in the Relic ending the movement phase more than 6" from where it started.
And, of course this only works with standard movement in the movement phase. Running obviously won't work. You can never "run into a transport" in the shooting phase EVER, regardless of mission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/11 18:11:38
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Target wrote: 3) Relic auto-drops when moved over 6 inches, at the point where the unit started. Even if allowed to do 1 and 2 (which are clearly against the rules), by embarking via that access point your unit would now be inside the building (which is over 6 inches away, more likely 12) and would autodrop at the escape hatch.
This is the only part I disagree with. You're embarked in the building - that's allowed.
The fact that it's the escape hatch access point doesn't matter - you were allowed to embark.
I say that purely because escape hatches in gameplay are typically placed 12 inches away from the building - if it was right next to the building I'd agree. You would then measure range to the unit to any part of the building to determine if the relic had moved more than 6 inches in that phase. In almost any circumstance, this would equate to more than 6 inches, so it would drop where the unit started their move.
The underlined has no basis in actual rules though. The unit moved and embarked - their movement was only to the access point. The actual rules don't support anything more than that.
If they embarked on a Battlewagon that didn't move and then disembarked the next turn, would they drop the Relic?
We're probably getting a bit far afield from the issue of the actual thread at this point, but the question is interesting . From a RAW standpoint you're correct the more I think about it, because this could arise beyond the escape hatch, for instance moving a unit 6 inches to get within 2 inches of a battlewagon (but not right up against it) and then embarking, you'd have effectively "moved" more than 6 inches as far as displacement goes, but rules yes, you'd only have moved 6. This would be an issue for an FAQ, if an event cared to clarify it, and probably should be in for events using an escape hatch, as you could effectively move the unit 6 inches to be within 2 inches of the hatch, use it to embark in a building 12 inches away, and then disembark out the other side the following turn for a potential movement on a bastion of ~31 inches over the course of 2 turns (6 inch move, whole base within 2 inches of access point, embark into building 12 inches away from access, bastion is ~6 inches wide, and then move 6 inches out)
Actually, there is no restriction whatsoever on how far the Relic can move. This seems to be a common misconception.
Models, on the other hand, who are carrying the Relic are limited to 6" per phase. Moving towards an access point is movement. Embarking into a Transport or Building isn't. If a model moves 6" so that he is within 2" of an access point and then embarks, he has only moved 6".
To be correct, you'd have to demonstrate that embarkation is considered movement. I don't believe you'll be able to do that based on the rules.
But this is probably an issue for YMDC and not really a Tournament topic.
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Shas'O Dorian wrote: The TO is obligated to apply that ruling for the remainder of the tournament unless he is PROVEN wrong beyond ANY AND ALL DOUBT. This is only to be fair as his ruling may have effected the outcome of that game and all players must be held to the same rules.
While that is a lovely notion and ideal to pretend exists, reality is often not so black and white.
As I mentioned above, a TO can be asked to give a ruling and that question can be phrased by a player so as to conceal the point they're really trying to get to. So the TO can give a ruling not truly realizing the implications of that ruling. Moreso, rulings are usually not about being 'wrong' or 'right', they are interpretations based on unclear rules (so it is a judgement call).
Then, after the game, say the opponent comes up and complains and explains what the implications of that ruling actually mean. While it is not 'fair' to that opponent (who may have lost the game), a good TO would not, nor should not stick with that same ruling for the rest of the tournament allowing that player to potentially dominate the rest of his games based on the ruling.
While there is no easy way out of that situation for a TO (especially if the first opponent lost the game), it does not make sense to compound the issue for the rest of the tournament simply because an uniformed decision was initially made. TOs are human, they make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes cost people a game. Such is life...although a good TO would also probably offer the player that lost the initial game due his ruling that he later reversed some sort of compensation for their entry fee to the event as a way to say sorry.
In that scenario I would say the TO was proven wrong as he was asked an unclear & loaded question. I would also say to dock the players sportsmanship score in that scenario as they are trying to conceal information from a TO in order to influence the ruling, which I believe is very unsportsmanlike.
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There is only an advantage if the escape hatch is more than 6" from the building so the model is moving greater than 6". It is not a misconception either as only a model can move the relic.
Dozer Blades wrote: There is only an advantage if the escape hatch is more than 6" from the building so the model is moving greater than 6". It is not a misconception either as only a model can move the relic.
To clarify, I've heard and read lots of people saying that the Relic is prohibited from moving more than 6" per phase. This isn't true. It IS a practical side effect of the carrying model's prohibition from moving more than 6" per phase, but isn't actually a rule. That the Relic can't move more than 6" is the misconception. The Relic can't move at all. It can only be dropped or carried.
There is also a secondary misconception that embarkation is movement. It's never defined as movement in the rules. It's simply embarkation.
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If by rules lawyer you mean someone who reads the rules, understands them and applies them as written... then yes, I am that. I try to understand how the game works so that when I show up to play a game, my opponent can be comfortable that I'm playing it correctly and not making mistakes that impact the game. I consider a relatively strict adherence to the rules to be a sign of good sportsmanship. Having said that, I'm willing to allow fudges here and there so long as we acknowledge and understand that we're intentionally breaking a rule.
I feel this is particularly important in a tournament environment where your opponent may be a stranger. (To tie things back to this being a Tournament Sub Forum.)
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Lol. I like how you had something to say immediately after you said you had nothing more to say. Well played, sir.
But in terms of the TO's ruling.
My understanding is the TO said that a Unit of Scouts could not Run in the Shooting Phase with the Relic and Embark into a Bastion using an Escape Hatch positioned more than 6" away from said Bastion.
This is a correct ruling. It is only correct because A. you can't run with the Relic and B. you can't embark into a Building during the Shooting phase.
Had it been a normal movement during the Movement phase, it would have worked fine, so long as the Scouts could get within 2" of the Escape Hatch using a normal 6" or less move.
As has been said, TO's are human and make mistakes. Their word is only law during that particular tournament. You take their call and move on. If they consistently make mistakes, you politely suggest they learn the rules a little better or find a new judge. If that doesn't work, you find a new tournament venue.
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Nyghoma wrote: I'm just curious about opinions on judgement calls made by TOs in tournaments.
If you asked a TO to make a ruling on a specific question before a match starts, should that decision on the rule be enforced, even if it was mostly considered a bad call, after the game has begun and the groundwork was already layed out, based on that initial ruling?
Should the TO be obligated to allow the initial ruling, just for that specific match?
Nyghoma,
I appreciate that you have not mentioned any names at this point, but clearly people have been able to infer that this happened at Templecon, and as the TO there, I would like to address the specifics to clear up any confusion.
I believe you are referring to the rules call I was asked to make in round 4 of the event regarding moving with the Relic through an escape hatch. I know you had talked to me before the round started, but there must have been some miscommunication in that initial conservation because we seem to have gotten two different things out of it. I may have misheard or misunderstood you, but it was never in my understanding that you were specifically asking whether or not you could move the Relic through your escape hatch. If I had thought you were asking that specific question, I would have given you the same answer that I did when asked in the middle of round 4. As a TO I would never intentionally go back on a rules call that I had previously made.
I'm terribly sorry this caused a bad experience for you at our event. This is clearly just a simple case of miscommunication and something clear communication skills can easily prevent from happening in the future.
Good Reply! Great sense of knowledge of the game, and very qualified to be a T.O.
I have known bro comp for some time, and can tell you he would never do something deliberate with malice intent. Honestly, his apology and accountability and clarification should hopefully satisfy your inquiry.
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Ok since the cat's out of the bag I'll explain in full what happened. I asked Sam before my match if I could embark the escape hatch with the relic in hand. He said yes. I didn't try to enter the escape hatch with the relic on the shooting phase. It was in the movement phase.
I had my Escape Hatch on top of the relic pre game. I had scouts infiltrate, then used scout to get even closer to the hatch/ relic. On my 1st turn ( I won initiative), my scouts were able to be within reach of the relic and within 2 " of the hatch. Enabling me to both claim the relic and embark during the movement phase. This had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting phase.
Sam, how much more clearer could I have been about my question, pregame? What exactly were you confused about? I don't think this was a miscommunication at all, since we talked about how effective it was going to be in play. This is why I felt bamboozled. Plus, compound with the ruling in my game against Sean (over fmcs and fdrs), I basically just threw my hands up and conceded out of frustration. The same issue occurred in that match too. You ruled in front of the both of us that an indirect hit from a FDR could in fact hit a FMC, as long as it wasn't my initial target. But the moment I was to employ such rule, you flip flopped and ruled against it, 10 minutes later. Again, this was the 1st inconsistency, so I didn't bat an eyelash.
And just for the record. Brocomp/Sam did apologize after the tournament. Like I've stated he's a pleasant guy, very friendly, and likable. None of my grievance is a reflection on to him as a person. It was a mix up and I don't believe the ruling was malicious or motivated by favoritism/ nepotism. This was the reason I didn't want to get into specifics.
As far as the validity of the relic and escape hatch is concerned, I had a thread going on You make the Call forums for a few days now. The consensus is pretty clear.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/12 21:06:43
You don't pick up the relic until the end of the Movement phase. Thus it is actually impossible to pick up the Relic and then embark into the bastion, because if you do an action after picking up the Relic, then it isn't the end of the phase yet.
Well that's debatable. Embarking vehicles is done during any part of the movement phase. So this may include the "end". But now that's gossamer territory.
In any case, I could have lasted the turn to embark thereafter on the following turn, if I was allowed to embark with with relic in tow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 21:02:16
Ok not sure why you want to take this out on me but sure. I'll leave an explanation for your points in the following spoiler.
Just to be clear, I wasn't putting on false airs with you. I only play Tau since 5th edition, so my knowledge of the psychic disciplines and what number each power is on the roll is slim. Hence always checking the rule book when others role up their characters at the start of a match. There was no intent to somehow bamboozle you into thinking I was uninitiated or unfamiliar with the rules. And you certainly would have always been welcome to a rematch here in NYC at the Strat - the offer was an honest one. We meet Thursdays, just let me know when you're available and I'll make time to meet you and you can get a rematch of that mission and army and we can do some strategy bashing to talk about what went right/wrong beyond just the rules.
Spoiler:
Regarding your concerns: I know the scouts thing annoyed you, but you had asked me to make a line of them on the other side of the building wall for you which I did across the wall. When later we realized that blocked the cents coming out through the hatch, I moved one in the middle back around the building for you (in coherency) so you could fit a cent in his spot. Not that you could have fit more anyway, you rolled a 2" for the difficult terrain and those Cents are rather massive bases. Had you rolled more I would have given you more space, it really wasn't going to change much for me and I had no interest in fighting it. Considering I allowed a second move of that scout to make the guy fit, I'm not really sure how I screwed you over.
And yes the move back into the escape hatch would have been during the shooting phase. You moved onto the relic with those scouts during that movement phase, before moving your centurions. How could you have moved to it, picked it up, AND then later at the end of the phase declared an embarkation? To the best of my knowledge, you declare your embarkation when you're done moving that particular unit/while you make the move, not at the end/resolution of the phase when you pick up the relic. What you attempted in the tournament would have had to be during the shooting phase. Remember this is all top of turn 1, you didn't have the relic at the start of your movement phase.
Regarding the markerlights, your concern during the match was how you didn't get to roll a save against them. There is no save against markerlights, as no wounds are done with them. And my units fire markerlights that hit on 2s, re-rollable for the main unit (and the second unit when preferred enemy is up) so it's unusual for anything les s than 3 to go on the target, usually 4. That is accomplished via commanders with drone controllers - sharing their BS 5 with the drones. I did roll to hit on all of them, just not to wound if that's what you mean. But they only roll to hit as they do not generate wounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 08:14:30
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I don't remember things playing out that way, nor will I continue a back and forth on our match. That's for another time. I regret even mentioning it. It detracts from the original question in this thread. I know where to find you.
Nyghoma wrote: Well that's debatable. Embarking vehicles is done during any part of the movement phase. So this may include the "end". But now that's gossamer territory.
In any case, I could have lasted the turn to embark thereafter anyways if, one, the rule worked. Two, my opponent didn't pull shady shenanigans with my scouts.
A unit cannot embark during any part of the movement phase. A unit embarks by moving within 2" of a vehicle's access point, at which point it is allowed to embark. You cannot move a unit within 2" of an access point and then come back later in the movement phase and embark, because the rules prohibit you from coming back to move a unit after you have gone onto move other units. And the end of the movement phase does not occur "until you have finished moving all of the units you wish to move."
So if your argument was/is truly that you are allowed to embark at the 'end of the movement phase' after claiming the Relic, then I can see how the TO and your opponent might have an issue with you, because that is frankly a ridiculous proposition that I have never seen anyone else ever try to pull in a decade+ of playing at 40K tournaments (and the embarking rules haven't changed at all in that regard in all that time).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 11:05:19
Nyghoma wrote: Well that's debatable. Embarking vehicles is done during any part of the movement phase. So this may include the "end". But now that's gossamer territory.
In any case, I could have lasted the turn to embark thereafter anyways if, one, the rule worked. Two, my opponent didn't pull shady shenanigans with my scouts.
A unit cannot embark during any part of the movement phase. A unit embarks by moving within 2" of a vehicle's access point, at which point it is allowed to embark. You cannot move a unit within 2" of an access point and then come back later in the movement phase and embark, because the rules prohibit you from coming back to move a unit after you have gone onto move other units. And the end of the movement phase does not occur "until you have finished moving all of the units you wish to move."
So if your argument was/is truly that you are allowed to embark at the 'end of the movement phase' after claiming the Relic, then I can see how the TO and your opponent might have an issue with you, because that is frankly a ridiculous proposition that I have never seen anyone else ever try to pull in a decade+ of playing at 40K tournaments (and the embarking rules haven't changed at all in that regard in all that time).
No that wasn't the issue. Nor did i suggest that was the issue writing in this thread.It never got that far. I covered to issue at hand thoroughly in plain words above. You're projecting and making it out to be more than what it was.
Even if the second query arose, I would be satisfied with whatever was ruled thereafter. I was never combatitive with the TO on any other judgement call made throughout the tournament. And I'm sure he can support that statement.
I can admit without shame, this is 1st GT for 40k, and my 2nd 40k tournament since 2002 (last edition I've played). But I'm no stranger to the tournament scene. I've been playing in game tournaments since the late 80's.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 18:14:06
It appears to me that maybe context was probably left out the first time the OP spoke with the TO.
Before the tournament:
OP - "So can you pick up the Relic and then embark into the bastion via the escape hatch."
TO - "Yes, you can."
The during the game:
OP - "So my scouts picked up the Relic and then embarked into the bastion on Turn 1."
TO - "What, all on the same turn? No. You can pick up the Relic and then you can embark next turn."
I can see how the OP must have been frustrated with what he felt was a flip-flop of a decision. But then again, sometimes when you ask a general question, the answer could actually vary depending on the context of the situation. Best to give as much details of the situation (or tactic that you are attempting) to get as accurate a response as possible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/12 18:21:03
Just to be clear, I wasn't putting on false airs with you. I only play Tau since 5th edition, so my knowledge of the psychic disciplines and what number each power is on the roll is slim.
Agree. As an ork player, I have been playing for close to 20 years without ever using a psychic power. I have been known to ask deep divey questions when something just sounds fantastical and amazing like "37 models die if I roll a 2+ on a D6!" like some psychic powers. So claiming people who are not well versed in psychic powers doesn't mean they are being false or lying. To read into it means someone is probably holding a grudge and is a poor sport and looking for reasons to antagonize.
Sounds like OP was wrong on every call and lacks some fundamental rule knowledge and is a bit of a poor sport in his reactions to not getting his way (IE: quitting a match instead of playing it out)
Where in that thread are you discussing being able to embark the escape hatch the same turn as picking up the relic since you can't pick up the relic until AFTER your movement?
You have to basically squat on the relic for a full turn and take your lumps before you would even be in a legitimate position to move it. You can't even ask 'does embarking a hatch count as more than 6"' because you haven't even picked the dang thing up yet.
And without a GWFAQ, you may have a judge rule either way where it is more than 6" and dropped vs it isn't... You have to accept however the chips may fall, but neither ruling allows you to pick up and embark at the same time. You would need to wait a turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 19:06:37
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Just to be clear, that wasn't the issue. The only issue was whether or not the relic was able to enter the bunker through the escape hatch, period.
The protocols of when the relic was picked up in lieu of embarking was never an issue. It was just the simple fact of whether the unit would drop the relic due to the hatch being 12" away from the bunker, based in the 6" stipulation.
I can see how it's easy to entertain all of these sidebars revolving around the issue. But all chatter thereafter is just "what ifs", if embarking the hatch came to fruition. Which it didn't.
Kriswall wrote: Lol. I like how you had something to say immediately after you said you had nothing more to say. Well played, sir.
But in terms of the TO's ruling.
My understanding is the TO said that a Unit of Scouts could not Run in the Shooting Phase with the Relic and Embark into a Bastion using an Escape Hatch positioned more than 6" away from said Bastion.
This is a correct ruling. It is only correct because A. you can't run with the Relic and B. you can't embark into a Building during the Shooting phase.
Had it been a normal movement during the Movement phase, it would have worked fine, so long as the Scouts could get within 2" of the Escape Hatch using a normal 6" or less move.
As has been said, TO's are human and make mistakes. Their word is only law during that particular tournament. You take their call and move on. If they consistently make mistakes, you politely suggest they learn the rules a little better or find a new judge. If that doesn't work, you find a new tournament venue.
I will disagree with you on the role of judges. What you describe is more a referee role. judges listen to both side of the argument and make a ruling base of those arguments. If one side did not give an clear argument like you do then a judge might rules against them even they are right. a referee on the other hand make call base on his understand of the rules. the different is that a judge makes his un-bias ruling base on what both side give him. The assumption and a big one is judge assume don't know the rule. why? because judge assume not knowing every rules so the assumption is he know none of it. referee, on the other hand assume to know all the rules and makes the call without any argument. he need to know what had happen but he does not need them to make an argument for him.
"those who know don't speak; those who speak don't know"
1.) Don't play straight relic- it is a terrible mission in general.
2.) Don't allow stronghold assault- the rules in it are poorly designed with interaction with the rest of the game.
As for the role of a Judge at an event. My thought would be toward
Judge makes his decision based on
1.) Arguments by both sides
2.) His/her own knowledge of the rules.
3.) Any evidence of rules provided.
Basically listen to both sides, then make a decision based on all evidence which includes the judges own knowledge.
It shouldn't be
Player A says, "In the rules it says that I embark a vehicle at any point during my movement."
Player B says "I'm positive that is not how it works."
Judge, "Player A is more convincing so he wins."
It should be
Judge: "Show me in the rules where it says that."
"Ok I see where you are going well in the FAQ it states ____ so Player ____ is correct"
Sure a judge could be wrong, but he/she should never go off the most convincing argument.
Just to be clear, I wasn't putting on false airs with you. I only play Tau since 5th edition, so my knowledge of the psychic disciplines and what number each power is on the roll is slim.
Agree. As an ork player, I have been playing for close to 20 years without ever using a psychic power. I have been known to ask deep divey questions when something just sounds fantastical and amazing like "37 models die if I roll a 2+ on a D6!" like some psychic powers. So claiming people who are not well versed in psychic powers doesn't mean they are being false or lying. To read into it means someone is probably holding a grudge and is a poor sport and looking for reasons to antagonize.
Sounds like OP was wrong on every call and lacks some fundamental rule knowledge and is a bit of a poor sport in his reactions to not getting his way (IE: quitting a match instead of playing it out)
Where in that thread are you discussing being able to embark the escape hatch the same turn as picking up the relic since you can't pick up the relic until AFTER your movement?
You have to basically squat on the relic for a full turn and take your lumps before you would even be in a legitimate position to move it. You can't even ask 'does embarking a hatch count as more than 6"' because you haven't even picked the dang thing up yet.
And without a GWFAQ, you may have a judge rule either way where it is more than 6" and dropped vs it isn't... You have to accept however the chips may fall, but neither ruling allows you to pick up and embark at the same time. You would need to wait a turn.
Wow, a little presumptuous aren't we? Wrong on every call? What calls exactly are you referring to? The ONE call about just being able to embark an escape hatch without dropping the relic? Or maybe the other call in a separate match on the obscure rulings of Focused Death Ray and FMCs? Which wasn't debated at all. Which I excepted without resistance.
Poor sportsmanship? Before you eat your shoe, how about you ask if this game in question was played out to the end? Here, I'll spare you the labor......The game was played out til time was called. The conceding was done inside my head, not on the table. The only reason I played it out is because I am a good sportsman, even though that flub cost me a game, late in a tournament that I still had a chance of placing decently in. I did drop out of the tournament for the last round, but that didn't hurt anybody at all. There was no point in me playing the last game when I was raging on the inside. I'm a reeeeeal spoiled brat.
Lack fundamental knowledge huh? Yeah right. I think I'm doing okay for someone who has crammed 13 years of 40k additions into 5 months of play. FFS, when I stopped playing in 4th edition, there was no such thing as flyers, monsterous creatures, fortifications, LoWs, super heavies/GCs, or army supplements. God forbid, I didn't memorize 7th edition tyranids rules......Yeah you won't get that reference because.......you weren't there.
Moral of the story. Don't pretend you know me. Don't pretend you were at the event.
Ps I'm going to take back what I said about Kenny (GreyDragoon). It was uncalled for me to bring up my petty squabble. It's between to two of us and not for public display or consumption. I'll be editing my posts to reconcile my bad taste and conjecture.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 20:59:38
The relic is a fine mission in tournaments, it should NOT have to be left out. Its the bending of the rules and exploitation of the wording that is the problem.
A) understand what "end of the phase means"
B) go to a tourney with the full knowledge that you can plead your case, but the T.O. has the final word.
C) its not back tracking on a ruling when further clarification is required or information is initially left out. Again see B above.
Simply put, don;t rely on "AHA I HAVE YOU NOW" moments or plans, when its being done in the grey areas of the rules.
or simply stay home and don't play in the tournaments if you do not accept A-C
T.O.'s should not have to add all this heap and mess, when 95% of players of the tourney, understand and accept A-C.
Signed,
"my signature below"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/12 20:10:12
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2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
Breng77 wrote: This whole thread is why when running events I:
1.) Don't play straight relic- it is a terrible mission in general.
2.) Don't allow stronghold assault- the rules in it are poorly designed with interaction with the rest of the game.
As for the role of a Judge at an event. My thought would be toward
Judge makes his decision based on
1.) Arguments by both sides
2.) His/her own knowledge of the rules.
3.) Any evidence of rules provided.
Basically listen to both sides, then make a decision based on all evidence which includes the judges own knowledge.
It shouldn't be
Player A says, "In the rules it says that I embark a vehicle at any point during my movement."
Player B says "I'm positive that is not how it works."
Judge, "Player A is more convincing so he wins."
It should be
Judge: "Show me in the rules where it says that."
"Ok I see where you are going well in the FAQ it states ____ so Player ____ is correct"
Sure a judge could be wrong, but he/she should never go off the most convincing argument.
base on what you said. if player A say it is "in the rule" then a judge say "show me". that still base on player A's argument. judge assume not knowing the rule does not mean he does not do any fact checking. so in your example. if player A can show the judge (in this case we all know he can't) then yes a judge will say "player A is more convincing so he wins". I think you are confuse with "assume not knowing the rules" with fact checking or correctly apply the rules. a judge still need to point out any holes in the argument both logical and rules. Check how reliable those rules are and facts about them. Applies them in the right order and the correct way.
a judge will need you to tell him why there is a 5 yard penalty. so, citing the rule like on which page and the argument why that rule apply.
a referee will simply tell you there is a 5 yard penalty.
"those who know don't speak; those who speak don't know"
So, the one thing that I would like to say in this argument is in reference to the whole "the relic doesn't actually move, it's only picked up and dropped. The model that is carrying it is moving, not the relic itself".
Wow.
That's like southern states during Reconstruction arguing that the 15th Amendment didn't really guarantee the vote, it only stopped governments from denying the vote based on race, skin color, and previous servitude.
If you really need to rationalize something that you are doing by digging into the wording THAT literally you are missing the whole point to this game. Yes, tournaments do have big prizes, and yes it's nice to win, and yes I acknowledge that people spend a lot of money to attend and play in these events. However, when you come down to it we are playing a game with little toy soldiers and aliens. We are enjoying a hobby by playing against another individual that shares a mutual interest in said game. Part of the social contract of that game is to not try to weasel a way through rules by manipulating the ruling in your favor.
If the relic started at position A and ends at position B and the distance between those two points is OVER 6 inches you are wrong. IT'S SIMPLE PHYSICS!
Also, as a TO (not of this event) I can tell you straight up that dropping out during the 5th round and not telling anyone, just walking away because your rule lawyer nonsense was called out, is piss poor sportsmenship. By the time your 5th round opponent realizes they don't have an opponent the round is probably 10 to 15 minutes in and it's too late to find that person a new opponent. That person also spent a lot of money to go to a tournament to enjoy X amount of games, so not even giving the TO's the heads up you were dropping out and allowing them make sure everyone is covered opponent wise is sad.
. From a 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Team: Tank You Very Much
