Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are the units required to stay within 12" of Spyder to benefit from Adaptive Subroutines? Or is it a "nova" type buff that stays with them even if they go more than 12" away from it? Subroutines activate at the start of the movement phase and the rule does not state something like "as long as units stay within 12" of the Spyder".

From Codex Necrons:

... all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule...

As worded, they must remain within 12" to benefit. Otherwise it would need to be worded something like this:

... all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation at the start of the Movement phase, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule...

Yep, what Ghaz said. But if this makes you feel better, I'd say you'd only need to have one wraith from the unit, within 12" for the rest of the unit to reap the benefits.

That's not how it works at all, you do not have to remain with in 12 inches of the Spyder to keep the special rule just that at the beginning of the phase you have to be within 12" of the Spyder to recieve it. That's it.

At the start of each of the controlling player’s Movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.

Nothing about that says, All units must remain with in 12 inches of the Spyder to recieve the special rule.


Just at the beginning of the phase pick the rule, if they are within 12 inches they get the rule until the start of the next movement phase.

If you move away out of 12" you still recieve the rule but if you are not with in 12 " at the beginning of the next phase you would lose the rule.

Sorry, but the wording does not support your claims. If the unit is within 12" of the spyder, they benefit. If they're not within 12", then they don't.

If their not within 12" of the spyder at the beginning of the phase they would not recieve the benefit at no other point do they need to remain within 12" just at the beginning of the phase.

You would be correct if it had some sort of clause stating " All units that remain within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder recieve this special rule" , it has no such clause.

The only requirement to receive the rule is to be with in 12" of the Spyder at the beginning of the phase at no other time are you required to remain within 12" of the Spyder to recieve the rule.

Again, the actual rule says otherwise. I've already posted what the rules would have to say in order for them to keep the benefit. You've not posted anything that gives them permission to keep the benefit if they move more than 12" away from the spyder. Your argument is that it doesn't say you lose it when you need to find a rule that says you do keep the benefit.

I posted the literal rule text that states it as such. The full text of it again is here.


At the start of each of the controlling player’s Movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.


They get the rule if they are within the 12" they do not lose the rule if they move outside of that.

And again, you're wrong. It's broken down into the requirements of the rule::

The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation...

The benefits of the rule:

... benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule...

And the duration of the rule:

... until the start of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.

The duration of the rule does not override the requirements. So far, you've not posted anything that changes the requirement to only be checked for at the start of the Movement phase just because that's the duration of the rule.

Again you are applying a restriction that just does not exist anywhere with in the rule.

The only thing they have to do to get the rule is remain with in 12" at the beginning of the movement phase. That's it.

You are literally adding words.

So by this logic Gaunts that were within Synapse Creatures range at the start of the movement phase always have Fearless until the start of the Tyranid players next movement phase, regardless if the Synapse source is gone?

Because that is simply not true.

One of these things is not like the other, One of these things is different. Specifically because the synapse rule states: Models with the Synapse Creature special rule have a synapse range of 12". Friendly Codex: Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures themselves, have the Fearless special rule.

Which the Canoptek harvest unequivocally does not state : Units with in 12" of the Canoptek Spyder have these rules.

Synapse Creature, pg 38, Codex Tyranids:

Models with the Synapse Creature special rule have a synapse range of 12". Friendly Codex: Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule.

Adaptative Subroutines, pg 108, Codex Necrons
At the start of the controlling player's Movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

The way it is worded is the same.

Considering your argument earlier, which was that Ghaz would be correct if the rule said 'all units that remain within 12" of the Spyder", I don't quite see how you can argue that the Canoptek Harvest works outside 12" of the Spyder but not for Gaunts outside of Synapse.

As Ghaz has pointed out, until the movement phase is the duration and does not override the requirements.

I don't see the differnce

There's no check for the 12" for the Spyder, the only check happens at the beginning of the movement phase to see if they benefit from the rule until the beginning of the next movement phase.

benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.


This is the part that you're ignoring that's all one sentence, it's not two sentences.

If it said all Models with in 12" of the spyder recieve the rules, but it doesn't it just says " they all benefit from these rules until the beginning of the next movement phase"

The Synapse states that it must be with in 12" to get those rules.


The only thing that cares about is the check at the beginning of the phase. That's it. At the beginning of the phase are they within 12" of the Spyder.

It may seem like it says the same thing but it's not, that last part is what makes it different.

They get the benefit until the beginning of the next phase would just be left off.

That's the very important part that everyone seems to just gloss over.

This

Friendly Codex: Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule

Is not the same as this sentence

The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

Are completely different because of that last statement

until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

If it said this

The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule.

It would be the same as this

Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule

They just get the benefit until the beginning of the next phase as long as they started the movement phase with in 12".

Why? Because one of the rules is fleet for one, You'd have a unit that has fleet , fleets then lose fleet half way through fleeting.

RAW, Hollismason is right.

have to agree with Hollismason also

There's no check for the 12" for the Spyder, the only check happens at the beginning of the movement phase to see if they benefit from the rule until the beginning of the next movement phase.

benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.


This is the part that you're ignoring that's all one sentence, it's not two sentences.

I'm not. That is simply the duration for how long it lasts for.

If it said all Models with in 12" of the spyder recieve the rules, but it doesn't it just says " they all benefit from these rules until the beginning of the next movement phase"

It states units within 12".

The only thing that cares about is the check at the beginning of the phase. That's it. At the beginning of the phase are they within 12" of the Spyder.

This is incorrect. At the beginning of the phase you choose the rule you want until your next movement phase. That's it.

It may seem like it says the same thing but it's not, that last part is what makes it different.

That's because it is the same thing. The unit has to remain within 12" of the Spyder to receive the benefits of the rule.

They get the benefit until the beginning of the next phase would just be left off.

That's the very important part that everyone seems to just gloss over.

This is because you can choose to change the rule you want.

Friendly Codex: Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule

Is not the same as this sentence

The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

Are completely different because of that last statement

until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

As stated, you get to choose which rule you want. That rule has a duration for how long it lasts for.

If it said this

The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule.

It would be the same as this

Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule

They just get the benefit until the beginning of the next phase as long as they started the movement phase with in 12".

It says exactly that. The fact that you can change the rule you want is why the 'beginning of the next movement phase' is added.

Why? Because one of the rules is fleet for one, You'd have a unit that has fleet , fleets then lose fleet half way through fleeting.

This makes no sense. You would still be within 12" of the Spyder when rolling your run move.

 Frozocrone wrote:

There's no check for the 12" for the Spyder, the only check happens at the beginning of the movement phase to see if they benefit from the rule until the beginning of the next movement phase.

benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.


This is the part that you're ignoring that's all one sentence, it's not two sentences.

I'm not. That is simply the duration for how long it lasts for.

If it said all Models with in 12" of the spyder recieve the rules, but it doesn't it just says " they all benefit from these rules until the beginning of the next movement phase"

It states units within 12".

The only thing that cares about is the check at the beginning of the phase. That's it. At the beginning of the phase are they within 12" of the Spyder.

This is incorrect. At the beginning of the phase you choose the rule you want until your next movement phase. That's it.

It may seem like it says the same thing but it's not, that last part is what makes it different.

That's because it is the same thing. The unit has to remain within 12" of the Spyder to receive the benefits of the rule.

They get the benefit until the beginning of the next phase would just be left off.

That's the very important part that everyone seems to just gloss over.

This is because you can choose to change the rule you want.

Friendly Codex: Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule

Is not the same as this sentence

The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

Are completely different because of that last statement

until the start of the controlling player's next phase.

As stated, you get to choose which rule you want. That rule has a duration for how long it lasts for.

If it said this

The Canoptek Spyder from this formation and all units within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this formation benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule.

It would be the same as this

Tyranids models within this synapse range, including the Synapse Creatures itself, have the Fearless special rule

They just get the benefit until the beginning of the next phase as long as they started the movement phase with in 12".

It says exactly that. The fact that you can change the rule you want is why the 'beginning of the next movement phase' is added.

Why? Because one of the rules is fleet for one, You'd have a unit that has fleet , fleets then lose fleet half way through fleeting.

This makes no sense. You would still be within 12" of the Spyder when rolling your run move.

The way the rule is worded it would have to say that a unit that moves outside the 12" loses the rule. It's clear when it checks and the duration the buff is granted.

After reading the entire rule, It's clear to me that they gain the chosen special rule if they are within 12" of the spyder at the start of the turn, and they keep it till the next turn even if they move away.


If you chop the rule up into parts it is easy to confuse its intent, but read as a whole they keep it.

At the beginning of the Movement phase a rule is chosen. Period. There is a full stop there that ends the sentence. The Spyder and units within 12" blah blah blah it's been quoted enough. So at the beginning of your movement phase you select a rule but where in the EFFECT of the rule does it say that it GAINS the rule? It merely gains the 'benefit of the effects' but it does not have that rule.

So on a case by case basis when the time to use of the rules is called for, you must be within 12" otherwise you're not within 12" and so you do not gain the benefit from the effects. Since you no longer benefit from the effects (since you're out of range to) and you do not have that rule itself (since the model wasn't given it) you can not use it. At the start of the next movement phase the effects end no matter what and the process repeats with a new selection.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

So on a case by case basis when the time to use of the rules is called for, you must be within 12" otherwise you're not within 12" and so you do not gain the benefit from the effects.

You are adding that part and you are not allowed to add to the rule.

It's not adding anything. It's a simple check when trying to get the benefit of the rule. "I want to use Fleet. Do I have Fleet? No. Am I within 12" of the thing that can give me Fleet? No." Then Fleet isn't an option.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's not adding anything. It's a simple check when trying to get the benefit of the rule. "I want to use Fleet. Do I have Fleet? No. Am I within 12" of the thing that can give me Fleet? No." Then Fleet isn't an option.

It's abundantly clear that the units get the ability in the movement phase and it lasts until the next movement phase. You are adding a check. I don't see a check in the rule.

The check is when you try to activate the rule because the rule itself isn't given to you. It's the most natural thing because I play Tyranids and deal with Synapse. I lose Fearless when I try to move more than 12" away. But according to how you are wording THIS rule, I have Fearless for the entire game because there's no 'end date' on my gain of Fearless even outside of the 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To address your specific point though, only the rule itself is CHOSEN at the beginning of the movement phase. And it ends at the next movement phase to give the oppurtunity to change the selected rule. But the Spyder only grants that ability around the 12" bubble because as soon as a Wraith is outside that range it doesn't meet the requirements of being in 12".

Until I see a FAQ otherwise; I have to side with the keeps side.
I totally get the same impression of the rule, and nothing Ive seen posted in the arguments against makes it not work without adding something.

I think the formation is already OP as is. I certainly don't think they need the additional option of leaving the spyder and keeping their choice rule for that turn.

However, by strict raw, that IS what it says they do. Until the start of their next move phase, they get the benefits of that rule as long as they started within 12" of the spyder.

Aaand that formation is even more dumb now :/

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
The check is when you try to activate the rule because the rule itself isn't given to you. It's the most natural thing because I play Tyranids and deal with Synapse. I lose Fearless when I try to move more than 12" away. But according to how you are wording THIS rule, I have Fearless for the entire game because there's no 'end date' on my gain of Fearless even outside of the 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To address your specific point though, only the rule itself is CHOSEN at the beginning of the movement phase. And it ends at the next movement phase to give the oppurtunity to change the selected rule. But the Spyder only grants that ability around the 12" bubble because as soon as a Wraith is outside that range it doesn't meet the requirements of being in 12".

Yeah this is again adding words to sentences, the last part of the sentence, until the beginning of the next phase is what is the difference. You're comparing Apples and Oranges.

Just a quick point, and I know it probably does not matter anymore, in the 5th ed Blood Angels FAQ about FNP (which is almost exactly like the detachment benefit rules and requirements) you had to be with in the range of the model in order to claim and use said benefit. Furthermore, you could move your way out of range, be shot out of range, and charge out of range. Just a thought.

Sheesh, and to think there could be this much of a disagreement over a simple rule. RAW, at the start of the turn, if they're within 12", they gain the benefit, and it lasts until the start of the next movement phase, in which you have to, again, be within 12" to continue to gain the benefit.