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 krodarklorr wrote:
Sheesh, and to think there could be this much of a disagreement over a simple rule. RAW, at the start of the turn, if they're within 12", they gain the benefit, and it lasts until the start of the next movement phase, in which you have to, again, be within 12" to continue to gain the benefit.

That's just your opinion what the RAW says.

no that's literally RAW and there's no way to interpret it other than that.

Hollismason wrote:
no that's literally RAW and there's no way to interpret it other than that.

Apparently, this codex was so poorly written that everything and it's mother can be interpreted wrong, from what I've seen. So, guess I'll just wait to play until 6 months from now when we get an FAQ.

Hollismason wrote:
no that's literally RAW and there's no way to interpret it other than that.

Sorry, but that's not true. Its just your opinion.

I always wonder if some GW rules writers are out there reading and going "come on! How are they not understanding it THIS time?"

It seems really really really clear. Be within 12": get ability til next move phase.
So if I move wraiths outside of 12" of the spyder, then you try to claim that they lose RP immediately, you're disobeying the "til next move phase" line in the rule. No part of the rule says there's any way to lose the ability before the next move phase.

This also means that killing the spyder and going straight to shooting the other canopteks in the same turn, they'll still benefit from RP until they've gotten a turn to move.

The tyranid synapse is set up different. It doesn't say they keep it til x time. It just has "if within 12, then fearless." So I could tank shock a unit out of synapse range or kill the synapse creature and the unit is immediately out of synapse and no longer fearless. If it said they got fearless until the next movement phase, however, then they'd be golden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, you also don't get the spyder's ability UNTIL your first move phase, which means you're free to shoot the guys even while they're within 12" of the spyder and they will not get fnp on your first turn (if you go first.)

Synapse, being worded as a constant check, has no such weakness. They are in synapse whether they got first turn or not.

Reading the rule there is one requirement to get the benefit and a time limit.

The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next Movement phase.

First, other units in the formation within 12" of the Spyder and the Spyder gain the selected rule. Second, this lasts until the start of your next movement phase.

The question is, if you leave that 12", do you retain the benefits of the rule. I would say no since only units within 12" of the Spyder gain the benefits. If they move more than 12" away, then they are no longer within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder. I read the until the end of your next turn as a way to tell us that the aura does not persist through your next turn.

I can see an argument that it is like a 'pulse' when you initiate the rule and anything within range of the Spyder at the time gets the rule, but I disagree with that.

Time to through another log on the FAQ fire...

 Ghaz wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
no that's literally RAW and there's no way to interpret it other than that.

Sorry, but that's not true. Its just your opinion.

Sorry, I had to...

You left out the part of the rule where it specifically says it checks at the start of your movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are you saying that the canopteks can start the turn OUTSIDE the ability range, and then move into it and suddenly gain the benefit, even though they weren't there when the ability said they needed to be?

niv-mizzet wrote:
You left out the part of the rule where it specifically says it checks at the start of your movement phase.

Except it doesn't say that you check at the start of the Movement phase. It says you choose which special rule that the affected units will benefit from at the start of the Movement phase.

niv-mizzet wrote:
You left out the part of the rule where it specifically says it checks at the start of your movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are you saying that the canopteks can start the turn OUTSIDE the ability range, and then move into it and suddenly gain the benefit, even though they weren't there when the ability said they needed to be?

This last parts a good point.

niv-mizzet wrote:
You left out the part of the rule where it specifically says it checks at the start of your movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are you saying that the canopteks can start the turn OUTSIDE the ability range, and then move into it and suddenly gain the benefit, even though they weren't there when the ability said they needed to be?

It actauly doesn't say that.

At the start of each of the controlling player's movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder...

In no way does it say to check at the start of your movement phase. Simple that you choose a rule.

I am saying that as long as you are within the 12" you would have the rule, yes.

Yeah again that is just a check to see if you get the rule for a full turn if your within 12" of the Spyder.

As it's written it only checks that one time and never again, because it has the finishing statement of until the beginning of the next turn, with no other clauses.

I feel there's little reason to continue discussing this, unless there's new information to be found, which I don't see there being any. Some people interpret it one way, and others another way.

Yeah well you can interpret alot of things but when you invent things out of thin air that just aren't there out of a bias then that's not correct.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah well you can interpret alot of things but when you invent things out of thin air that just aren't there out of a bias then that's not correct.

But, by the logic in this thread, each interpretation is an opinion, and therefor, no one is right, yet no one is wrong. An FAQ is needed, and until then, talk with your opponent before hand and see what they think.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah well you can interpret alot of things but when you invent things out of thin air that just aren't there out of a bias then that's not correct.

Making such assertion is a bit rude. Assuming that it can only be read one way, even when people have admitted that there can be other ways to read it is a bit disingenuous.

 Nilok wrote:

There's no other way to read it unless you are inferring a implication of a restriction that is not explicitly written.

There are two ways to read this rule, neither one is more right than the other, until such a time that GW makes ruling. At which point one interpretation will be correct for an undetermined amount of time.

1) At the start of the turn, all the units gain a special rule. This lasts until the start of their next turn.

2) At the start of the turn, choose a special rule. While a unit is within range it has the rule. The chosen rule lasts until the start of the next friendly turn, at which point a new rule will be selected.

I haven't seen a rules basis for #2 to be correct yet.
If they lose the rule by moving away, then they did not keep it until the next movement phase, and thus you're breaking the rules.

That's pretty much it, there's no way without inferring a restriction or clause in there that it doesn't work that way.

A similar situation can be brought up with psychic powers.
If I'm in range of prescience with a squad, get it cast on them, and then they assault completely out of range of the librarian casting prescience on them, do they keep it?

Of course they do, they get it until the start of your next psychic phase, as stated in the rules. It says nothing about losing it just because you leave the librarian in the dust.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I haven't seen a rules basis for #2 to be correct yet.
If they lose the rule by moving away, then they did not keep it until the next movement phase, and thus you're breaking the rules.

It doesn't break the rule if you fail to keep the requirements of being within 12" of the spyder.

That's the thing Hollie is saying. You're making up a rule about staying within 12". I can't find that rule anywhere in the rules text.

So are you saying psychic blessings and maledictions stop functioning when you leave their stated range instead of lasting til your next psychic phase?

No I'm not making up a rule. It's right there where it says "... all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule... " Where does it say that if you don't meet this requirement that you benefit?

niv-mizzet wrote:
That's the thing Hollie is saying. You're making up a rule about staying within 12". I can't find that rule anywhere in the rules text.

So are you saying psychic blessings and maledictions stop functioning when you leave their stated range instead of lasting til your next psychic phase?

Here are some examples of this:

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Does prescience stop if the unit leaves the 12" range? This is completely possible with charges.

Endurance is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, all models in the target unit gain the Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain (4+) and Relentless special rules.

Does endurance end if the unit leaves the 24" range?

Fire Shield is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit has a 4+ cover save and all enemy units treat all terrain within 6" of the target as Dangerous Terrain (even open ground).

Does fire shield end if the unit leaves the 24" range?

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

If a target leaves the range of 24" does it end?

There are multiple more examples of this through out the codexes, where something gives something else a bonus, it lasts until the next turn then it ends.

This is the exact same wording of a multitude of special abilities.

Mizzet and Hollis are correct. The Canoptek rule clearly states when it begins and when it ends. No other conditions are listed for ending the rule prematurely. Conversely the synapse rule you are quoting only gives one condition for its benefit/loss, that is staying in range.

Quaden wrote:
Mizzet and Hollis are correct. The Canoptek rule clearly states when it begins and when it ends. No other conditions are listed for ending the rule prematurely. Conversely the synapse rule you are quoting only gives one condition for its benefit/loss, that is staying in range.

Sorry, but they're not correct. Stating when it ends doesn't remove any requirements for the rule to be in effect. The requirement is that the unit be within 12" of the spyder. If they don't meet that requirement then they don't receive the benefits.

As has been said before - discuss with your opponents. I think we are done here. Can wee get a lock please?

Hollismason wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
That's the thing Hollie is saying. You're making up a rule about staying within 12". I can't find that rule anywhere in the rules text.

So are you saying psychic blessings and maledictions stop functioning when you leave their stated range instead of lasting til your next psychic phase?

Here are some examples of this:

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Does prescience stop if the unit leaves the 12" range? This is completely possible with charges.

Endurance is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, all models in the target unit gain the Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain (4+) and Relentless special rules.

Does endurance end if the unit leaves the 24" range?

Fire Shield is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit has a 4+ cover save and all enemy units treat all terrain within 6" of the target as Dangerous Terrain (even open ground).

Does fire shield end if the unit leaves the 24" range?

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

If a target leaves the range of 24" does it end?

There are multiple more examples of this through out the codexes, where something gives something else a bonus, it lasts until the next turn then it ends.

This is the exact same wording of a multitude of special abilities.

These are all pretty bad examples since the Psychic powers, upon being cast, specifically target that unit.

A better example would be Cursed Earth: '...targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 invulnerable save."(pg 195, BRB). Note that Cursed Earth's wording is more similar to Adaptative Subroutines than any of the Psychic Powers you specified.

So would a Pink Horror models continue to receive a bonus of +1 to invulnerable save if said Psyker moved more than 12" away?

 Ghaz wrote:

Quaden wrote:
Mizzet and Hollis are correct. The Canoptek rule clearly states when it begins and when it ends. No other conditions are listed for ending the rule prematurely. Conversely the synapse rule you are quoting only gives one condition for its benefit/loss, that is staying in range.

Sorry, but they're not correct. Stating when it ends doesn't remove any requirements for the rule to be in effect. The requirement is that the unit be within 12" of the spyder. If they don't meet that requirement then they don't receive the benefits.

Explain to me why those rules that I all quoted which are the exact same wording and such do not end when you are out of range?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
That's the thing Hollie is saying. You're making up a rule about staying within 12". I can't find that rule anywhere in the rules text.

So are you saying psychic blessings and maledictions stop functioning when you leave their stated range instead of lasting til your next psychic phase?

Here are some examples of this:

Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Does prescience stop if the unit leaves the 12" range? This is completely possible with charges.

Endurance is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, all models in the target unit gain the Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain (4+) and Relentless special rules.

Does endurance end if the unit leaves the 24" range?

Fire Shield is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit has a 4+ cover save and all enemy units treat all terrain within 6" of the target as Dangerous Terrain (even open ground).

Does fire shield end if the unit leaves the 24" range?

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

If a target leaves the range of 24" does it end?

There are multiple more examples of this through out the codexes, where something gives something else a bonus, it lasts until the next turn then it ends.

This is the exact same wording of a multitude of special abilities.

These are all pretty bad examples since the Psychic powers, upon being cast, specifically target that unit.

A better example would be Cursed Earth: '...targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 invulnerable save."(pg 195, BRB). Note that Cursed Earth's wording is more similar to Adaptative Subroutines than any of the Psychic Powers you specified.

So would a Pink Horror models continue to receive a bonus of +1 to invulnerable save if said Psyker moved more than 12" away?

No those are all excellent examples and yours is terrible because it does not have a clause in it like those rules have.

I'll give you two guess why they don't end when a unit moves out of range.

 Frozocrone wrote:
A better example would be Cursed Earth: '...targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 invulnerable save."(pg 195, BRB). Note that Cursed Earth's wording is more similar to Adaptative Subroutines than any of the Psychic Powers you specified.

So would a Pink Horror models continue to receive a bonus of +1 to invulnerable save if said Psyker moved more than 12" away?

The difference is that Cursed Earth states that all models within 12" have +1 invulnerable save. Thats it. So anyone who moves outside of that range would lose it.

If it was worded that all models within 12" have +1 invulnerable save until the start of the next psyker phase it would be another story.