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Hope this doesn't cause them to destroy FW great Marks in the process.

Better stock up...

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

How exactly is it more defensible? The courts have clearly ruled that GW does not have exclusive rights to general ideas like power armor and WWI tanks with lasers, nor do they have any exclusive rights to geometric shapes like a marine shoulder pad. Changing the shape of the shoulder pad isn't going to change the fact that a particular shape is not protected, and third-party companies are free to make compatible shapes of their own.

Which should tell you all the more that this rumour is bollocks.

It's one thing to know/hear/get insights of an upcoming product.

It's another to allegedly have first-hand insights into management decision motivating a product, not to mention THE flagship product of this company.

Any person with that kind of access to the board rooms to know that GW is re-doing Space Marines for IP reasons, could tell you a whole lot more details about far less confidential things such as release dates or product details.

Didn't GW just leave 25mm bases behind.. for.. what reason again???

 MLaw wrote:
Didn't GW just leave 25mm bases behind.. for.. what reason again???

Because marines (and similar large 28mm infantry) look better on a slightly larger base. That's all there is to it, the speculation about it being done for IP reasons is nothing more than tinfoil hat paranoia.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

How exactly is it more defensible? The courts have clearly ruled that GW does not have exclusive rights to general ideas like power armor and WWI tanks with lasers, nor do they have any exclusive rights to geometric shapes like a marine shoulder pad. Changing the shape of the shoulder pad isn't going to change the fact that a particular shape is not protected, and third-party companies are free to make compatible shapes of their own.

Which should tell you all the more that this rumour is bollocks.

It's one thing to know/hear/get insights of an upcoming product.

It's another to allegedly have first-hand insights into management decision motivating a product, not to mention THE flagship product of this company.

Any person with that kind of access to the board rooms to know that GW is re-doing Space Marines for IP reasons, could tell you a whole lot more details about far less confidential things such as release dates or product details.

Actually, while I agree healthy skepticism in this case is probably warranted, it isn't impossible that something was inferred from the design brief. If the studio were instructed to create a new Mark of SM armour that had x, y, or z features, then someone in or around the studio could have made a logical guess at the reasons why, without necessarily bugging Kirby's private executive bathroom.

I know the Internet requires proof of all the things, all the time, but reading between the lines can frequently be quite accurate in real life.

Bigger Marines would look better on those bases.. current marines.. eh.. I don't know that I agree with you. It also makes disembarking a little rough.

However..

Even if it is just for looks.. you're telling me GW spent money switching all their products over to slightly larger bases just because they thought it looked a little better? If they were worried about that then why haven't they updated Warp Spiders, Ork Buggies, etc? I don't buy it.

 MLaw wrote:
Bigger Marines would look better on those bases.. current marines.. eh.. I don't know that I agree with you.

It's a subjective thing, but if you look at the current marines you'll see that they're kind of crowded on the old bases. Feet hang off the edge, there isn't much room for decorations, etc. Increasing the size a bit looks better IMO, kind of like how the FW Tau crisis suits and their 60mm bases look much better than the plastic ones on 40mm bases.

Even if it is just for looks.. you're telling me GW spent money switching all their products over to slightly larger bases just because they thought it looked a little better?

Why not? It's not like bases are an expensive change. They're produced entirely separately from the rest of the kit and thrown in the box at the end, and a simple base doesn't take any real mold design work. Plus, if it's not about looks then what is the explanation? None of the supposed IP arguments make any sense, and there's no evidence the for wild speculation about how a possible new space marine kit will be larger and require a larger base. Even if a new marine model uses a large base the "why spend money" argument applies just as well if you ask why GW would go back and put the old kits on larger bases AND sneak the new bases in as a preview before the new model that requires them is even confirmed.

If they were worried about that then why haven't they updated Warp Spiders, Ork Buggies, etc? I don't buy it.

Because designing entire new models costs a lot more time and effort than "designing" a new base.

A few thoughts on this..
1.. because GW sees all the guys like Dragonforge or Basicks(spelling?) as leeching off of them and making easy sales on their 25mm basing convention. Whole lines of products would be rendered obsolete from these companies. Sure they can just do the larger size, but as you pointed out, this would be far more expensive than just making a bigger smooth base.

2.. Infinity. They're kicking 40k's ass and I'm pretty sure they're using the exact same style and size of bases. Distinguishing themselves from the others using this type of base means that if the other companies don't switch, then GW has something that makes them a little more unique.. if they do, GW wins a moral victory because it's seen as the other companies copying them.

3.. They could be laying the groundwork for..like I said.. larger basic Marine troops. There are people who see where I'm coming from now.. and others who still think it's an idiotic idea.. I've been at this long enough to remember when plastic Baneblades were scoffed at.. never gonna happen.. or further back when people claimed you'd never be able to get monstrous creatures in plastic.. it just doesn't work. I have learned with them to never rule out anything.. regardless of how absurd it may seem or how drastic it might appear financially or logically.

4.. GW have made moves that are petty in the past. Look at how they handled the whole thing with BoW/Weyland games. However, in this case it could be a gamble that pays off. If Marines are released in a slightly larger scale.. it "could" drive sales for people who want the newer betterer models. It's almost diabolical frankly.. someone who owns a perfectly good Space Marine army would be compelled to re-buy the exact same army. I saw that with people who had the old-school 2nd ed multipart marines. Great paintjob, full tournament army.. bam.. new armor that's larger comes out and the old one was pushed to the back and he bought all new. It was funny because when Apocalypse came out he broke out that old stuff and it was pretty interesting seeing them together.

None of us know what's really going to happen or what's going on with these decisions.. and it's kinda funny that people are pretending to.. we're all just guessing here.. so let's have a little fun with it..

Would be hilarious if this whole rumor just turned out to be Ultramarines for Horus Heresy. After all, their helmets from the old HH card game (and repeated in the comic book they did last year) looked kind of Iron-Mannish.



That said, I've never so much hoped a rumor was untrue.

This sounds like a terrible idea.


It also sounds pretty sketchy. They just invested in, and released, brand new Tactical kits for both regular Space Marines and Blood Angels. Making those instantly obsolete seems like a poor investment.

 MLaw wrote:
1.. because GW sees all the guys like Dragonforge or Basicks(spelling?) as leeching off of them and making easy sales on their 25mm basing convention. Whole lines of products would be rendered obsolete from these companies. Sure they can just do the larger size, but as you pointed out, this would be far more expensive than just making a bigger smooth base.

Except that:

1) You can still use 25mm bases for 40k, so people will still buy them from third-party companies.

2) There is nothing stopping the third-party companies from making 32mm bases, so GW would gain nothing in the long run.

3) GW doesn't lose money from third-party base sales because every kit comes with enough GW bases for all of the models. All third-party base sales are in addition to GW bases the owner already has.

4) 25mm bases are still useful for non-GW games, so the third-party companies aren't losing whole product lines.

5) Moving to 32mm helps the third-party companies in the long run because now some of their customers that bought 25mm bases are going to buy new 32mm bases to replace them.

2.. Infinity. They're kicking 40k's ass and I'm pretty sure they're using the exact same style and size of bases. Distinguishing themselves from the others using this type of base means that if the other companies don't switch, then GW has something that makes them a little more unique.. if they do, GW wins a moral victory because it's seen as the other companies copying them.

You're assuming that anyone cares about this. Base size is well down the list of unique attributes the average customer is going to be looking for in a game, and most customers just use whatever the model comes with and hardly even notice the size.

3.. They could be laying the groundwork for..like I said.. larger basic Marine troops. There are people who see where I'm coming from now.. and others who still think it's an idiotic idea.. I've been at this long enough to remember when plastic Baneblades were scoffed at.. never gonna happen.. or further back when people claimed you'd never be able to get monstrous creatures in plastic.. it just doesn't work. I have learned with them to never rule out anything.. regardless of how absurd it may seem or how drastic it might appear financially or logically.

Except this is pure speculation with no evidence to support it. Even the rumor of a new marine model only says that it will be different and shocking, the idea that it's going to be a true-scale marine or other larger model is something random forum posters invented. And no, claiming that there's no evidence to prove that it isn't a big marine does not change the fact that it's wild speculation.

As for MCs and Baneblades in plastic, no, that's not really an equivalent situation. The models already existed and were part of the game, the only change was GW realizing that there was enough demand to make a plastic kit. Larger marines have no precedent at all, other than wishful thinking about how cool it would be if GW made them.

4.. GW have made moves that are petty in the past. Look at how they handled the whole thing with BoW/Weyland games.

Except that isn't "petty", it's business. GW's policies are certainly selfish and favor slight GW profit increases over the long-term health of the community, but they aren't just done out of spite.

If Marines are released in a slightly larger scale.. it "could" drive sales for people who want the newer betterer models. It's almost diabolical frankly.. someone who owns a perfectly good Space Marine army would be compelled to re-buy the exact same army.

It could do that, but it would involve GW spending an obscene amount of money on taking a huge risk with the one part of their company that is generating consistent sales. GW would have to invest huge amounts of money to redesign the entire product line, write off the loss of the current inventory of every space marine kit, and hope that the most common response is buying all of the new stuff instead of " you I quit". And it's difficult to see how this complete redesign would have any significant advantage over continuing to milk the cash cow with things like new tactical squad kits that people keep buying. The same customers that would replace an entire marine army with true-scale marines would also buy much safer products like chapter-specific upgrade kits or slight updates to existing kits.

While looking for space marine scale pics for my blog, I found this pic from over at bolter and chainsword. The OP says it is tau inspired but it seems alot more iron man inspired to me than anything else but very cool looking in any case.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263768-epsilon-omega-an-alpha-legion-splinter-cell/

 MLaw wrote:

2.. Infinity. They're kicking 40k's ass and I'm pretty sure they're using the exact same style and size of bases. Distinguishing themselves from the others using this type of base means that if the other companies don't switch, then GW has something that makes them a little more unique.. if they do, GW wins a moral victory because it's seen as the other companies copying them.

I'm not sure where you're getting this. I have 1 local store out of 5 (maybe 6?) that carries Infinity, and it occupies as much space in the store as the WHFB clampacks (which is to say, a section of shelf about 2 feet wide and 8 feet tall). The sales can't possibly be that high, because there just isn't that much stuff to buy. I bought Corvus Belli (sp?) but have yet to find one other person that has any interest in playing Infinity.

From a modelling perspective, the miniatures are nice metal minis, but they aren't nearly as good as GW HIPS, and just like most PP minis, there's zero incentive for me to buy/model multiples of models I already own. And, the only modelling value they have is painting small squads of a few factions -- which is to say, its modelling life cycle is not long.

that was an absolutely ridiculous comment. I wonder on which planet infinity is kicking GW ass, but it sure aint on planet earth.

Unless you want to argue with growth rate, but, as anyone who even has a basic clue on economics knows, lt's not a valid comparaison since the disparity in sales is so large;

 Peregrine wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
1.. because GW sees all the guys like Dragonforge or Basicks(spelling?) as leeching off of them and making easy sales on their 25mm basing convention. Whole lines of products would be rendered obsolete from these companies. Sure they can just do the larger size, but as you pointed out, this would be far more expensive than just making a bigger smooth base.

Except that:

1) You can still use 25mm bases for 40k, so people will still buy them from third-party companies.

2) There is nothing stopping the third-party companies from making 32mm bases, so GW would gain nothing in the long run.

3) GW doesn't lose money from third-party base sales because every kit comes with enough GW bases for all of the models. All third-party base sales are in addition to GW bases the owner already has.

4) 25mm bases are still useful for non-GW games, so the third-party companies aren't losing whole product lines.

I agree: GW doesn't sell any aftermarket bases (other than blanks, and how exciting is that?), so I don't see how companies making sculpted bases are "leeching" sales. In addition, many GW models are still 25mm base, such as the brand-new Harlequin Troupe (released last week) -- so obviously 25mm isn't going anywhere. Finally, SWM has already said that they're working on 32mm bases.

After working with 32mm bases on units with jetpacks and bulkier power armor models, the conclusion that I can arrive at is that I like them, and that GW made the switch just simply because bulky models look a lot better on 32mm bases and tip over less. I don' tthink that this was nefarious, anticompetitive, or financially motivated. Perhaps for other things, but not the base size changes on hefty infantry.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This sounds really unlikely, but we'll see.

Harry hinted that a ragestorm would ensue, but I really cannot see how slightly tweaked armour design would cause that. Maybe there is a slight scale change as well? On the other hand, that would be incredibly risky, it would invalidate FW's HH line, and risk alienating GW's most important customers, the marine players.

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

Id buy those. Its a nice segway between the cirrent designs and something more modern (and unique).

And Im hopin like hell for a scale change. I thought the Dark Vengeance Chosen were the best plastica GW put out over, in large part because they were fluff accurate size wise.

Their IP is as protected now as it will be after all these ridiculous changes-for-the-sake-of-change, and all they'll have done is drive away another wedge of their ever-declining customer base. Somebody seriously needs to slap GW's management upside the head and drill it into their thick skulls that the way to salvage their business and market share is to beat the competition with the quality and value of your product, not trying to twist your product and business model into some mythical perfectly-protectable IP that just lets you litigate everyone else out of existence.

Imma let you finish... but your post was pretty damned wrong. No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

That design is dreadful.

I like Space Marines because they're Space Marines. I've played since Rogue Trader, and the only thing that has ever really changed is that the models have become far, far better. Give or take a few small redesigns here and there (like the introduction of MK7 armour). That doesn't really look like a Space Marine. It looks like somebody thought "I like anime, therefore there should be anime marines". No. Just no.

 Fayric wrote:
Perhaps GW realized that with the veterans released with the latest codex, and the BA done, they dont really have any more infantry kits to release for Marines.
(I know there is lots of PA kits left to do for CSM, but we all know they dont count in GWs eyes.)

Off-hand-
Legion of the Damned
Honor Guard (could combine with a redone Command Squad)
Assault Marine redo

 warboss wrote:
While looking for space marine scale pics for my blog, I found this pic from over at bolter and chainsword. The OP says it is tau inspired but it seems alot more iron man inspired to me than anything else but very cool looking in any case.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263768-epsilon-omega-an-alpha-legion-splinter-cell/

That looks awful IMO. Space Marine armor needs to be brutal, gothic and rundown, not like some generic GOW/Iron man clone.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
That looks awful IMO. Space Marine armor needs to be brutal, gothic and rundown, not like some generic GOW/Iron man clone.

Agreed. If it wasn't for the helmet, that armour would look like any other generic, near-future sci-fi armour.

Marine power armour is iconic because it looks the way it does. Once you go futzing around with it to any great degree you lose what makes it so identifiable.

So back to the actual rumor.

I have been told that there is a new mark of power armour coming at some point in the future.

It has been suggested that it looks a bit like Ironman's armour, but I haven't seen it so I don't know how close this is to reality.

As always take this with a pinch of salt. As you all know, I pass on what I hear, so if it's incorrect I apologise in advance.

Of the quoted text on the first page of this thread, these are the most important points and the only things Duffy isn't guessing on. Everything else about alien tech, release date, and whether the new mark of armor is a wholesale replacement or an additional release to current marks isn't part of the rumor.


So let us suppose:

What would Mark IX power armor look like? What design elements would the Mechanicus incorporate into their design?

Mark VIII Errant armor is the newest mark available right now. It's main visible improvements are the bullet-deflecting collar and power cable management. If we keep with that trend -- if it can be considered a trend -- and combine the purported kinda-like-Ironman look, then that suggests that, yes, the armor would be more streamlined than existing versions. A sleeker look is typically assumed as being more advanced and means that there are less glaring vulnerabilities since the armor's systems are (more) enclosed and better protected.



If we look at the bottom right marine from the sketches linked to by Kid Kyoto earlier in the thread, then (assuming that's a helmet and not a roughed-in head) we see the removal of the mouth vent/grill and the classic metal mohawk. If that design or similar were implemented for Mark IX, then I could certainly see why someone would liken it to Ironman, especially if the crest is missing from up top.


Thoughts on what we could expect in power armor evolution?

Those sketches look like Terminators. Look at the big blocks above their heads.

My guess is that if we get a new power armor mark that it won't be that big of a departure.

It's a human head as the helmeted version is sitting behind it and it's too small to be a helmet given the size of the body.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those sketches look like Terminators. Look at the big blocks above their heads.

Why not? Maybe an intermediate mark, offering better protection than regular armor but not quite as good as Terminator armour, maybe equivalent to artificer (2+) or something along the lines of 3+/6++ or something like that?
Wait a bit, the dickishness is missing. I got it.
Those become mandatory for stermguard/company veterans/whatever and since it's among the most popular units, everyone has to buy a new one.

 Medium of Death wrote:


It's a human head as the helmeted version is sitting behind it and it's too small to be a helmet given the size of the body.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that those are concept sketches for SM Centurians.

 MLaw wrote:
Didn't GW just leave 25mm bases behind.. for.. what reason again???

No reason that we know of for certain, though many people speculated IP reasons (which I thought seemed rather far-fetched, as no base-size can be trademarked, occam's razor would suggest simply for aesthetic reasons).

Which is the very reason the rumour is suspect, IMO. Lots of people assume and speculate a lot of things from GW these days to be motivated by IP. The chances that this was some random internet-talk somebody took the wrong way seems indefinitely more likely than it being a true rumour out of Nottingham which also happens to confirm many of the more frenetic internet discussions.

Generally, a rumour about "I heard GW is going to release X" is more likely than a rumour about "I heard GW is going to release X because"

For a new product, even a top-secret one, there are probably still hundreds of people potentially involved. Artists. Game Desginers. Packaging. People from the factory floor. Logistics. etc.. All these people could leak a new product coming, but none of them could leak why a new product is coming.

The number of people actually involved in the "let's do it to protect our IP"-decision making is likely < 10. A leak coming from any of them is highly unlikely.

 Breotan wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:


It's a human head as the helmeted version is sitting behind it and it's too small to be a helmet given the size of the body.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that those are concept sketches for SM Centurians.

They probably are. I wish they'd stuck to that design.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Lots of people keep saying that the rumour is ridiculous, there's no way GW could be this stupid.

I say this is an example of Poe's Law.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Aquila is the figurehead (though Corvus is probably iconic enough in itself to not change things)

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

I'm pretty sure Corvus is more iconic then Aquila. It looks better too.

Aquila is the figurehead (though Corvus is probably iconic enough in itself to not change things)

Spoiler:

GW thinks Aquila is unique, but in reality it bears a lot in common with Darth Vader and Stormtroopers, especially MK V over MK VII. But Beakies are extremely unique, and I can't think of any Spartans, Terran Marines, etc having the Hounskull helmets.