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 Crazyterran wrote:

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

Not a marines player myself, but don't the numbers say that a devastator squad offers better value per points than spacemarines-inside-spacemarines?

Perhaps GW realized that with the veterans released with the latest codex, and the BA done, they dont really have any more infantry kits to release for Marines.
To prevent stagnation of their best selling and iconic product, the simply make them larger and start over.

Makes some kind of sense from a bussiness perspective I guess.
I dont see how new PA would have any major impact on the rules if they didnt overhaul the whole armour rules, I mean what could they improve it with? Fleet? Eldarian battlefocus? AP2?

(I know there is lots of PA kits left to do for CSM, but we all know they dont count in GWs eyes.)

IMO
I could see a Codex: Mechanicum.
It having units of artificer marines in this new armour.
We have a had rumours and with forge worlds successes I don't see why not.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Lord of Misrule wrote:
Should this prove true, I suspect Mk IX power armour will be received with much the same warm appreciation that greeted theCenturions and the Dreadknight.

Burning scathing hatred from the Internet, then begrudging love because they are competitive, and people need to pretend to love them to justify buying them?

Speak for yourelf. The Dreadknight is the first (and still only non-FW) Space Marine "walker" that looks like it can actually walk. The washing-machines-on-stump-legs still couldn't physically walk after all these years, because it would be impossible for them to get their body's centre of gravity over one of their legs in order to actually lift the other one off the ground. Old-school dreads was an ok design given the limitations of 1980s metal miniatures, but it should've been retired two decades ago.

The day the entire Space Marine range drops the old fugly Dreads and goes with the Dreadknight-design is the day the miniature range improves by about 500000000000000000000000000000000%.

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

When people talk about scale change, I think most are imagining a huge shift. This seems unlikely. However, marines have already gotten bigger over the years. 2nd ed. metals and single-pose plastics were bigger than the RT beakies, and the multi-part plastic marines were bigger than the 2nd ed. ones. In both cases the size increase was couple of millimetres, and didn't really render the old models obsolete, so if there is a size increase, it would most likely to be similar one.

 MLaw wrote:
I agree with you.. but they've claimed this will really stir things up.. so yeah.. I mean.. that would REALLY stir things up.
I also think they've been desperately searching for a way to stick it to all those companies doing proxies... and nothing would do that better than completely invalidating entire ranges by those companies.

It would actually be a godsend to those companies. Assuming that it didn't cause GW to implode, people buying stuff means people buying accessories for that stuff. I said as much about the base size change. Stick it to the people doing custom bases? No, you just gave them a reason to party!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
When people talk about scale change, I think most are imagining a huge shift. This seems unlikely. However, marines have already gotten bigger over the years. 2nd ed. metals and single-pose plastics were bigger than the RT beakies, and the multi-part plastic marines were bigger than the 2nd ed. ones. In both cases the size increase was couple of millimetres, and didn't really render the old models obsolete, so if there is a size increase, it would most likely to be similar one.

Exactly. And GW can 'explain it' with it being a new MK of armor that is a wee bit bigger. And they can design it to be compatible with the same shoulder pads.

Zwan1One wrote:
Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Except GW believes Marines are true scale. As Jes Goodwin states, it's the other sculptors that have the scale wrong.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zwan1One wrote:
Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Except GW believes Marines are true scale. As Jes Goodwin states, it's the other sculptors that have the scale wrong.

Which honestly is close to being right. Stand a SM next to an Elder, DE, Tau or Necon model and it scales fine, it's just next to an ape-proportioned Guardsmen and it looks off. On the other hand, take a true-28 (not true-32) human next to a Marine, and it looks fine.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zwan1One wrote:
Potentially they could release these as 'true scale' marines. Hence the change to 32mm bases as well.

Except GW believes Marines are true scale. As Jes Goodwin states, it's the other sculptors that have the scale wrong.

Which honestly is close to being right. Stand a SM next to an Elder, DE, Tau or Necon model and it scales fine, it's just next to an ape-proportioned Guardsmen and it looks off. On the other hand, take a true-28 (not true-32) human next to a Marine, and it looks fine.

I totally agree, Paradigm. I am/was happy with the scale(bar plastic Guard).

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

Because the concept has to fly in a broader crowd of non-gobble-down-any-old-rubbish-the-company-unveils-just-because-fanboys.

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

If by "EXACTLY" you mean "NOT ACTUALLY EXACTLY", you'd be right.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

Really? I must have missed the part where Ripley dons the power armor that makes her a 8ft tall walking tank BEFORE she straps into the front of yet another suit of an even larger powered armor that is designed strictly for combat and is bristling with ranged weapons. The act of simply strapping in somewhere to the front or back of a robot (depending on which of the pair of fan "favorite" dreadknight or centurion you're talking about) isn't what people have a problem with but rather the style in which it was done along with the ridiculous Russian nesting doll idea. Just like with the 40k rules, the bad execution of a good idea is turning into a GW hallmark.

 warboss wrote:
Just like with the 40k rules, the bad execution of a good idea is turning into a GW hallmark.

Aint that the sad truth? That's the reason why i am very sceptical that rumored 9th fantasy will be any good. Or basically, whatever GW puts their mind to. The campaign sets are nice in theory, I guess, but no way I am shelling out 100€ just to get a unique Warboss model that can be easily converted from the AOBR one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

If by "EXACTLY" you mean "NOT ACTUALLY EXACTLY", you'd be right.

Take a closer look at the actual Dreadknight model then look at pictures of the Power Loader. The Dreadknight harness section is a near direct copy, complete with the same foot stirrups and handle design.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

Exalt.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

Bwahaha, consider that exalted!

 Vermis wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

Exalt.

Exactly.

The Auld Grump

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

Because the concept has to fly in a broader crowd of non-gobble-down-any-old-rubbish-the-company-unveils-just-because-fanboys.

I think you read too much into it. If Hulkbuster looks cool, people will like it, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Personally, I'm a fan Can't wait for next Avengers.

I think anyone that buys GW models is a fanboy/girl, now, LOL. Same goes for PP -- By definition, anyone who would pay $10+ for a single plastic inch-tall toy soldier is a fan of some kind, right? Or, for that matter, $30-$60 rulebooks when there are a dozen plus.

One thing is for sure, and that's the first people will know of anything is a blurred camera-phone photo of a half rolled-up magazine, taken in a Polish toilet

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation.

I will be surprised if I read a funnier post in 2015.

I knew people would bring up the power loader. Should've mentioned it myself, really. But then Alex did the job, and brilliantly so.

Talys wrote:

I think you read too much into it. If Hulkbuster looks cool, people will like it, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Well, that's kinda-sorta the point. Hulkbuster might not make sense, but looks cool. It basically turns Iron Man into something that at least looks like it could go toe-to-toe with the Hulk. Dreadknight might not make sense, but it looks... ridiculous. It's like whoever at GW took the Aliens power loader, with a smidge of penitent engine, and thought "let's make it four times as big with a big sword and a space marine out in front and all shiny and badass and kewl, everyone'll buy it" and no inkling of context ever flitted past their minds.

If they had a suit of armour like the hulkbuster that actually enclosed the space marine, even in his own 'everyday' suit, it'd... well, no, they tried that with centurions, didn't they? That was more flawed in the execution, maybe. It wouldn't have looked so wrong if everything wasn't so Tonka-toy chunky. As for the concept, they already had terminators as heavy shock troops, right? Same way as they already had guys strapped into big robots...?

Somewhat back on topic, but but still with an eye on Iron Man, especially his old gold-tights look: at the other end of the scale I'm not so sure about figure-hugging powered armour by definition. It's not just bits of armour strapped on: it's a self-supporting robotic frame that responds to the wearer's movements. All the power cables and sensors and processers and servos and things have to go somewhere, and then be covered and protected by armour. Maybe I'm overestimating just how chunky it has to be, but I always think of that bit of Starship Troopers (the book):

...Shucks, I could see the only man affected, half a mile away, and all I had was just a little bitty H.E. rocket, intended to make a lot of smoke and not much else. So I picked a spot by eye, took the rocket launcher and let fly.
Then I bounced away, feeling smug - no seconds lost.
And had my power cut in the air. This doesn't hurt you; it's a delayed action, executed by your landing. I grounded and there I stuck, squatting, held upright by gyros but unable to move. You do not repeat not move when surrounded by a ton of metal with your power dead.
Instead I cussed to myself - I hadn't thought that they would make me a casualty when I was supposed to be leading the problem. Shucks and other comments.
I should have known that Sergeant Zim would be monitoring the section leader.
He bounced over to me, spoke to me privately on the face-to-face. He suggested that I might be able to get a job sweeping floors since I was too stupid, clumsy and careless to handle dirty dishes. He discussed my past and probable future and several other things that I did not want to hear about. He ended by saying tonelessly, "How would you like to have Colonel Dubois see what you've done?"
Then he left me. I waited there, crouched over, for two hours until the drill was over. The suit, which had been feather-light, real seven-league boots, felt like an Iron Maiden. At last he returned for me, restored power, and we bounced together at top speed to BHQ.

I think anyone that buys GW models is a fanboy/girl, now, LOL. Same goes for PP -- By definition, anyone who would pay $10+ for a single plastic inch-tall toy soldier is a fan of some kind, right? Or, for that matter, $30-$60 rulebooks when there are a dozen plus.

Nah. I spent thirteen-bleedin-pounds-fitty on a single plastic skaven myself, a couple of weeks ago, though I consider that a blip. I think it's when you go out of your way to rant a defense, complete with strawmen, of one of the most universally derided minis of recent years, without much thought to why it's derided.

 Dentry wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Good thinking K_K.


Is that Dorian Heresy armour from any "offical" source or was it just fan art that gained a following?

Work by a group of people on B&C on a what-if scenario where Dorn fell instead of Horus. So not official, but a great read IMO.

Link to PDF

Yeah, the Dornian Heresy is to good to be a product of GW.

 Crimson wrote:
When people talk about scale change, I think most are imagining a huge shift. This seems unlikely. However, marines have already gotten bigger over the years. 2nd ed. metals and single-pose plastics were bigger than the RT beakies, and the multi-part plastic marines were bigger than the 2nd ed. ones. In both cases the size increase was couple of millimetres, and didn't really render the old models obsolete, so if there is a size increase, it would most likely to be similar one.

This is actually along the lines of what I was thinking..
They haven't batted an eye at using the original sitting crew from the Landspeeder.. despite the change in size. I think the biker guys got over-hauled but I'm not sure on that (I don't follow it that closely).
Rhinos went from tiny to I dunno 1/3 bigger? (Never actually measured the change) and Land Raiders jumped from the old tall ones that looked like they could tip over to our giant shoebox now (not sure if there has been a plastic other than those two.. like an upgrade to the rhino or whatever). I dunno.. GW has demonstrated a complete lack of craps to be given in regards to scale so many times that I think for them they'd just lose sight of what's actually going on and assume they would be doing the world a favor by jumping the size up a mm or two. Who actually knows how their version of logic works? I don't understand why the battle cannon on Leman Russ has a large enough diameter to launch a freakin torpedo but it does.. and has.. Trying to superimpose logic onto the actions and decisions made by GW is like trying to ram a square peg through a round hole, it just doesn't work.

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
"GW wants to protect its IP"

"looks like Iron Man's armour"

Stopped reading.

You caught that too 'ay? Yeah. Pretty funny stuff.

His Master's Voice wrote:You people do realize that Iron Man's suit is as generic as they get? And the only things that could be conceivably fought over is the colour scheme and possibly the glowy central part?

Everything else has been used over and over and over in so many different iterations you could not possibly count them all. The goddamn Space Marine shoulder pad has more stake to being a distinct piece of protectable IP than the whole IM armour combined.

I don't think it's funny because I actually expect them to get sued by disney. I think it's funny because making your power armor look like Iron Man will in no way make your IP any stronger. In fact there have been a lot of recent "Power Armor Space Warriors" in the last year that look a LOT like Iron Man while still being obvious stand-ins for space marines - Mantic's Peacekeepers, Puppetswar armored guys, The new KS from Titanforge - probably lots others those three came to mind.

So its really amusing to think that GW would ever think to themselves... we need to make these guys look more like a character from a top grosssing movie franchise, a style that has been copied multiple times in our own field and that should make our Ip somehow MORE protectable and we can shut down all these little upstart miniatures companies....

I don't think they would be that dense *he said optimistically* I imagine it's just a way to try and tap into that sweet sweet Marvel money-pot.

Don't forget that the last episode of Continuum had what looked an AWFUL LOT like Horus Heresy era SMs time-jumping into the city.

Space Marine styled powered armor is everywhere.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

And while the cynical wargaming crowd likes to take up every excuse to mock "Space Marines inside Space Marines", Marvel Studios just did the exact same thing by making the Hulk Buster an "Iron Man inside an Iron Man" and the concepts flies well enough in a broader crowd of non-hate-everything-just-because-haters.

Well, if Tony Stark was just strapped to the front of the Hulkbuster armour like he was caught in some bizarre, shiny baby carrier, it might not go over as well.

I don't know, the general public loves the power loader from Aliens despite the fact that it matches the harness on the Dreadknight EXACTLY.

Really? I must have missed the part where Ripley dons the power armor that makes her a 8ft tall walking tank BEFORE she straps into the front of yet another suit of an even larger powered armor that is designed strictly for combat and is bristling with ranged weapons. The act of simply strapping in somewhere to the front or back of a robot (depending on which of the pair of fan "favorite" dreadknight or centurion you're talking about) isn't what people have a problem with but rather the style in which it was done along with the ridiculous Russian nesting doll idea. Just like with the 40k rules, the bad execution of a good idea is turning into a GW hallmark.

Have you seen Gurren Lagann, speaking of "Space Marines in Space Marines?"

You have Gurren and Lagann, both Gunman (or Gundai in the. Manga) who combine to form Gurren Lagann.

Then Gurren Lagann combines (climbs inside to pilot it, like Kamina and Simon in Gurren and Lagann respectively) with Dai Gurren to produce Dai-Gurren Lagann

Then Dai-Gurren Lagann combines (climbs inside to pilot it) with Arc-Gurren Gunman to produce Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann.

Then Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann combines with the Cathedral Terra Battleship of Lordgenome, to form Choginga Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann.

And, finally, Simon feeds his own spiral energy back into Lagann, amplifying it to feed that spiral energy back through Gurren Lagann to amplify it, to send that spiral energy back through Dai-Gurren Lagann to amplify it, to Feedback that amplified spiral energy back through Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann to amplify it again, to finally feedback the spiral energy through Choginga Arc-Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann to produce the Ultimate form OF.....

Tenga Toppa Chogina Arc -Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann

Which is the size of a small galaxy.

But then the whole premise of Gurren Lagann's creators is to "Turn eleven up to eleven" (a meta-Spinal Tap reference).

So.... Done right.... Space Marines in Space Marines could be pretty cool if they did it right.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:

Tenga Toppa Chogina Arc -Gunman Dai-Gurren Lagann

Which is the size of a small galaxy.

But then the whole premise of Gurren Lagann's creators is to "Turn eleven up to eleven" (a meta-Spinal Tap reference).

So.... Done right.... Space Marines in Space Marines could be pretty cool if they did it right.

MB

Close, but Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is 10 million light years tall, or 100 times the size of the Milky Way Galaxy.

Though for completeness, Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is 52.8 billion light years tall, or 57% the diameter of the observable universe.
It then creates a drill 10 times its own size.

I guess you could say the movie turned it up to 12.

I wonder if GW then ever went through this thread...

 Crimson wrote:
This sounds really unlikely, but we'll see.

Harry hinted that a ragestorm would ensue, but I really cannot see how slightly tweaked armour design would cause that. Maybe there is a slight scale change as well? On the other hand, that would be incredibly risky, it would invalidate FW's HH line, and risk alienating GW's most important customers, the marine players.

As for new designs, I always liked this concept, especially the shoulderpads and the asymmetrical leg armour.

Id buy those. Its a nice segway between the cirrent designs and something more modern (and unique).

And Im hopin like hell for a scale change. I thought the Dark Vengeance Chosen were the best plastica GW put out over, in large part because they were fluff accurate size wise.

Their IP is as protected now as it will be after all these ridiculous changes-for-the-sake-of-change, and all they'll have done is drive away another wedge of their ever-declining customer base. Somebody seriously needs to slap GW's management upside the head and drill it into their thick skulls that the way to salvage their business and market share is to beat the competition with the quality and value of your product, not trying to twist your product and business model into some mythical perfectly-protectable IP that just lets you litigate everyone else out of existence.

Imma let you finish... but your post was pretty damned wrong. No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

This sounds horrible.

To protect IP go beakies, not Iron man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're going to replace all the standard Mk.VIII stuff to "protect their IP"? I don't buy it. The standard Marine is GW's single most important and iconic image. They wouldn't change that.

It's still power armor, it couldn't look that different.

Out of curiosity H.B.M.C. has there ever been a massive fluff change when writing an FFG book and how did affect the writing process?

chaos0xomega wrote:
No, they wont stop recasters, but their IP and minis will be a hell of a lot more defensible after everything theyve been doing, and while they cant technically stop conversion bits houses, they can make it a lot harder for them to do what theyve been doing.

How exactly is it more defensible? The courts have clearly ruled that GW does not have exclusive rights to general ideas like power armor and WWI tanks with lasers, nor do they have any exclusive rights to geometric shapes like a marine shoulder pad. Changing the shape of the shoulder pad isn't going to change the fact that a particular shape is not protected, and third-party companies are free to make compatible shapes of their own.