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I was comparing the two cheese units from the codices (you know, the ones that will likely be spammed) and TWC are kinda better.

SGTPozy wrote:
I was comparing the two cheese units from the codices (you know, the ones that will likely be spammed) and TWC are kinda better.

Maybe in direct competition, but against the field, I'll take the Riptide every time. TWC are usually eating at least 33% of the wounds dealt to them, and this makes them much easier to kill. It's just a happenstance of mathematics that the Riptide weapon is not optimal against TWC.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
I was comparing the two cheese units from the codices (you know, the ones that will likely be spammed) and TWC are kinda better.

Maybe in direct competition, but against the field, I'll take the Riptide every time. TWC are usually eating at least 33% of the wounds dealt to them, and this makes them much easier to kill. It's just a happenstance of mathematics that the Riptide weapon is not optimal against TWC.

What about when the entire army (hyperbole) is made up of TWC? Will the Riptide still be better? No, it will only be better against the non 3++ units, whilst TWC will destroy every unit (including the Riptide) in combat.

I said against the field of all possible opponents. All TWC is a subset of a single list, ie SW. The Riptide is still a better unit, even if it loses head-to-head.

At the end of the day, the SW are a HTH army in a shooting edition, and the Tau are a shooting army in a shooting edition. It's almost a foregone conclusion to me, even though it can't be considered a fact.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Since obviously you're a flame baiter I'll bite. It is. If you were to take the optimal builds of the codecy 8/10 times it would favour in the order I've listed. Which...in "fact" makes it a "fact" That the armies are better in the order listed. I apologize that your likeness for Sw has you wishing they were on a higher scale than they are.

Evidence?

You do know facts need evidence? "Because I say so" isn't evidence.

Presumably, mathematical modeling and thought experiments. Not the best, but better than "I say so".

I never said I say so In that post whatsoever. Thank you for your assumption. I agree with MaRtel. Mathhammer Is proof. Any one could run it and get the same answers and outcomes. Don't make this about the poster please. Make it about evidence and proof. Your post contributed nothing.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I never said I say so In that post whatsoever. Thank you for your assumption. I agree with MaRtel. Mathhammer Is proof. Any one could run it and get the same answers and outcomes. Don't make this about the poster please. Make it about evidence and proof. Your post contributed nothing.

Speaking of evidence and proof, you've not given any yourself, despite making two claims as facts.
I think SilverDevilfish has a perfectly valid point calling you out on that, and while you did not say, "because I said so", you actually gave less of a reason than that.

Multiple people besides myself have already stated mathhammer. Which if you don't know, then idk what to tell you. It's not calling me out when something is obvious, I apologize. I don't need to give facts when what I've stated is pretty well known. You're asking me to argue the basics of knowledge of anyone who has done any sort of research into competetiveness of any of the armies

We are just as shooty as any other marines, and having two special weapons in a tac squad is nicer than a heavy imo still.

I think that the tau and wolves are about equal tide vs TWC is all about how you build and kit, but both do about the same.

Absorb a ton of fire, move across the board and usually take a few units with them as they fall.

H2H is still a very viable part of this game, and its foolish to ignore that. Shooting is the bread and butter currently but its still not hard to make it into melee range and dish out some devastation.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Multiple people besides myself have already stated mathhammer. Which if you don't know, then idk what to tell you. It's not calling me out when something is obvious, I apologize. I don't need to give facts when what I've stated is pretty well known. You're asking me to argue the basics of knowledge of anyone who has done any sort of research into competetiveness of any of the armies

No, I'm pretty sure when you're trying to present your opinion as fact you need something to back it up.

The fact that you're saying things that basically amount to "everyone knows that" in an attempt to dodge the burden of proof is making me wonder if you have any actual proof? And yes the burden of proof is on you as you're the one stating your opinion as a fact.

SW are better than Tau?! How exactly? Is that why Tau have a far higher win % in GTs in 7th? Is that why you can find thousands of people calling riptides OP and maybe a handful of people complaining about TWC? Anyone who seriously believes SW > Tau is delusional and ignoring every shred of evidence. Tau are a consensus top 3 army. SW are SM -1. You can't call it opinion when you look at tournament win %...

It's just not worth arguing over.

 Toofast wrote:
SW are better than Tau?! How exactly? Is that why Tau have a far higher win % in GTs in 7th? Is that why you can find thousands of people calling riptides OP and maybe a handful of people complaining about TWC? Anyone who seriously believes SW > Tau is delusional and ignoring every shred of evidence. Tau are a consensus top 3 army. SW are SM -1. You can't call it opinion when you look at tournament win %...

SW are marginally better than Tau.

The win rate is only a thing because of IoM ally shenanigans. Tau have to remain by themselves whilst SW will have an ally of some sort, such as GK, IK, SM etc. This means that 'SW' will not win much because it will always be 'SW + IoM ally' due to the cheese that GW has given you.

People complain about Tau because many people are Tau haters. If the Riptide didn't exist then people would complain about Crisis suits (or dare I say... Vespid).
TWC on the other hand are an IoM unit so people will not call them OP since IoM fanboys believe that every army other than their own is cheese.

Tau top 3? Ha, don't make me laugh! Necrons, Eldar, SM, IK and Daemons beat Tau in competitiveness.

Finally, TWC and counter attack alone makes SW SM+1; I'd even say SM+2!

" If the Riptide didn't exist then people would complain about Crisis suits (or dare I say... Vespid)."

No, I wouldn't. There is only one unit in the Tau codex I truly despise. Quit painting with broad strokes.

SW are marines -1. Even I admit that. This makes DA and BA marines -2.

Martel732 wrote:
" If the Riptide didn't exist then people would complain about Crisis suits (or dare I say... Vespid)."

No, I wouldn't. There is only one unit in the Tau codex I truly despise. Quit painting with broad strokes.

SW are marines -1. Even I admit that. This makes DA and BA marines -2.

People always complain about Tau, you people are just playa haters!

SW are SM+1 since they have TWC... How does this ridiculously broken unit make them SM-1?

 Toofast wrote:
SW are better than Tau?! How exactly? Is that why Tau have a far higher win % in GTs in 7th? Is that why you can find thousands of people calling riptides OP and maybe a handful of people complaining about TWC? Anyone who seriously believes SW > Tau is delusional and ignoring every shred of evidence. Tau are a consensus top 3 army. SW are SM -1. You can't call it opinion when you look at tournament win %...

Except that list doesn't specify tournaments, nothing in those posts say it applies to tournaments only, it is a generic statement. Can you tell me that list holds up in every meta and every way 40k is played?

I'm not saying anything about who is better than who, I'm saying that it's hard to call something a fact when someone can come along and say "no that's not how it is in my meta", thus making the statement untrue.

If you haven't quite gotten it yet, changing it from a generic "This is how it is" list to "Here's a list of standings based on win percentages in yadda yadda tournaments" would make me drop the topic.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" If the Riptide didn't exist then people would complain about Crisis suits (or dare I say... Vespid)."

No, I wouldn't. There is only one unit in the Tau codex I truly despise. Quit painting with broad strokes.

SW are marines -1. Even I admit that. This makes DA and BA marines -2.

People always complain about Tau, you people are just playa haters!

SW are SM+1 since they have TWC... How does this ridiculously broken unit make them SM-1?

TWC aren't broken; just strong. I think you are trolling at this point. Trading the Tiggystar for TWC is a step down, not up. TWC looks downright weak now next to Wraiths. Go complain about them.

Yeah, i'm not sure how TWC are "broken".

A major balancing act for them is their highly flexible war-gear. I'd argue it makes them hyper-balanced in a really interesting way that GW should strike for more often.

Do you take them "naked" with bolt-pistol/chain-sword, at a good price? (And arguably make them "feel" like what people think assault termies should "feel" like in 40k), or do you put some quite expensive war-gear on them, making them even better, in exchange for the fact that one bad invul save can now seriously blunt the offensive power of said unit.

The micro-managing of who gets power-weapons, who gets storm-shields, etc... is really cool, quite tactical, but also ensures that they need to be played well.

Unlike true OP units, they aren't fire-and-forget. A bad player will position them poorly, not take advantage of when to LOS versus when to risk taking wounds, when to challenge or not, etc... and any of those will seriously diminish the potency of that unit.

A monkey could use a Riptide "correctly" and see it threatening an opponent. Ditto for Imperial Knights, etc...

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Yeah, i'm not sure how TWC are "broken".

A major balancing act for them is their highly flexible war-gear. I'd argue it makes them hyper-balanced in a really interesting way that GW should strike for more often.

Do you take them "naked" with bolt-pistol/chain-sword, at a good price? (And arguably make them "feel" like what people think assault termies should "feel" like in 40k), or do you put some quite expensive war-gear on them, making them even better, in exchange for the fact that one bad invul save can now seriously blunt the offensive power of said unit.

The micro-managing of who gets power-weapons, who gets storm-shields, etc... is really cool, quite tactical, but also ensures that they need to be played well.

Unlike true OP units, they aren't fire-and-forget. A bad player will position them poorly, not take advantage of when to LOS versus when to risk taking wounds, when to challenge or not, etc... and any of those will seriously diminish the potency of that unit.

A monkey could use a Riptide "correctly" and see it threatening an opponent. Ditto for Imperial Knights, etc...

TWC have to get to melee range to do anything. That right there is a serious problem quite often.

"A monkey could use a Riptide "correctly" "

Evidently not, as much as people on here talk about successful assaults against their Riptides that can be constantly moving away from the opponent and still firing.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" If the Riptide didn't exist then people would complain about Crisis suits (or dare I say... Vespid)."

No, I wouldn't. There is only one unit in the Tau codex I truly despise. Quit painting with broad strokes.

SW are marines -1. Even I admit that. This makes DA and BA marines -2.

People always complain about Tau, you people are just playa haters!

SW are SM+1 since they have TWC... How does this ridiculously broken unit make them SM-1?

TWC aren't broken; just strong. I think you are trolling at this point. Trading the Tiggystar for TWC is a step down, not up. TWC looks downright weak now next to Wraiths. Go complain about them.

Wraiths are broken (everyone thinks so) as are TWC since they are bikes+1 and bikes are already OP.

Tiggystar is a gimmick and only one of those units can be taken whilst you can have an unbound army of only TWC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TWC are very point-and-click; move forward 12", run/charge.

That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"TWC have to get to melee range to do anything. That right there is a serious problem quite often.

"A monkey could use a Riptide "correctly" "

Evidently not, as much as people on here talk about successful assaults against their Riptides that can be constantly moving away from the opponent and still firing."

Melee isn't anywhere as hard to get to as you say. Only two armies try to stay away from combat, so how is it difficult to get there?

You really think too much of the Riptide; it is good, but not as good as TWC.

"You really think too much of the Riptide; it is good, but not as good as TWC."

I would say the exact reverse. TWC are a melee unit in a shooting edition. That automatically takes them out of the elite tier.

"Melee isn't anywhere as hard to get to as you say"

With all due respect, what do Tau players know about getting into melee? Especially against JSJ units? I can't catch them with BA before I'm shot to bloody chunks. Yeah, TWC will take more effort, but I'm confident it's doable for Tau.

Martel732 wrote:
"You really think too much of the Riptide; it is good, but not as good as TWC."

I would say the exact reverse. TWC are a melee unit in a shooting edition. That automatically takes them out of the elite tier.

"Melee isn't anywhere as hard to get to as you say"

With all due respect, what do Tau players know about getting into melee? Especially against JSJ units? I can't catch them with BA before I'm shot to bloody chunks. Yeah, TWC will take more effort, but I'm confident it's doable for Tau.

Racist much? "What do Tau players know about getting into melee", that's just like me saying 'what do Blood Angel players know about playing a pure army (since you IoM players always abuse the ally system).

BTW, I play 'Bids which are a far more combaty army than your stupid BA!

Ho many armies have JSJ? 4? So why are you complaining? It's not as if they are as common as IoM drop pod spammers.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You really think too much of the Riptide; it is good, but not as good as TWC."

I would say the exact reverse. TWC are a melee unit in a shooting edition. That automatically takes them out of the elite tier.

"Melee isn't anywhere as hard to get to as you say"

With all due respect, what do Tau players know about getting into melee? Especially against JSJ units? I can't catch them with BA before I'm shot to bloody chunks. Yeah, TWC will take more effort, but I'm confident it's doable for Tau.

Racist much? "What do Tau players know about getting into melee", that's just like me saying 'what do Blood Angel players know about playing a pure army (since you IoM players always abuse the ally system).

BTW, I play 'Bids which are a far more combaty army than your stupid BA!

Ho many armies have JSJ? 4? So why are you complaining? It's not as if they are as common as IoM drop pod spammers.

Racist? That's not racist... I don't think you understand the meaning of the word. Don't just wildly through that word around either. It has a lot of power behind it and can make things very ugly very quickly.

Either way, there really is no point in having any sort of discussion with you is there? You always barge into these threads screaming "everyone are Tau haters" and then sprout some of the most anti-Imperium rhetoric I've ever heard. You do realize how hypocritical you sound when you say that anyone who is against Riptide is just a Tau hater and can't be listened to, yet at the same time claim that Imperium units are all just "cheese" because you don't like them.

Calm down.


Comments like "Racist much?" when discussing 40k armies are nothing but hyperbole.

If you cannot post constructively then it's better you don't post at all.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You really think too much of the Riptide; it is good, but not as good as TWC."

I would say the exact reverse. TWC are a melee unit in a shooting edition. That automatically takes them out of the elite tier.

"Melee isn't anywhere as hard to get to as you say"

With all due respect, what do Tau players know about getting into melee? Especially against JSJ units? I can't catch them with BA before I'm shot to bloody chunks. Yeah, TWC will take more effort, but I'm confident it's doable for Tau.

Racist much? "What do Tau players know about getting into melee", that's just like me saying 'what do Blood Angel players know about playing a pure army (since you IoM players always abuse the ally system).

BTW, I play 'Bids which are a far more combaty army than your stupid BA!

Ho many armies have JSJ? 4? So why are you complaining? It's not as if they are as common as IoM drop pod spammers.

I always field a pure list. I don't have the models for anything else.

" It's not as if they are as common as IoM drop pod spammers."

Drop pod spammers are easier to deal with than JSJ, imo. If you weather the alpha strike, those lists fold up like lawn furniture. With a good JSJ player, I can't even retaliate on my turn.

"BTW, I play 'Bids which are a far more combaty army than your stupid BA! "

Those flying hive tyrants really care about Riptides, let me tell you. They way most Nids roll now, my BA ARE more CC oriented.

See the above.

Reds8n

As I said, I field pure lists. Drop pods are far from cheese, as I counter those lists much easier than Riptides or WS lists. I'm sorry you have so many problems with them. Perhaps more set up shenanigans are necessary for you.

How are TWC cheese again? Just because the ion accelerator doesn't instantly vaporize them? Just tap them out with pulse rifles. You're better off against them than many.

Sounds like the admins want you to tone it down. If you want, we can start a thread on how to own drop lists.

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, I field pure lists. Drop pods are far from cheese, as I counter those lists much easier than Riptides or WS lists. I'm sorry you have so many problems with them. Perhaps more set up shenanigans are necessary for you.

How are TWC cheese again? Just because the ion accelerator doesn't instantly vaporize them? Just tap them out with pulse rifles. You're better off against them than many.

Sounds like the admins want you to tone it down. If you want, we can start a thread on how to own drop lists.

I also tend to field pure lists. Every once in a while I'll throw some DA into my Guard army or a Grey Knight unit into my Space Marines or a Jetseer council into my Dark Eldar but mostly its pure lists.

Agreed on the almighty Drop Pod not being so almighty. I believe a separate thread on their counter would be informative, but I fear it would be knocked off topic.

Tau are arguably one of the best armies to field against TWC. Fire Warriors have Str 5 weapons at a 30" range- more than pretty much every other army out there. Longer range means more shots on target over the course of a game. Higher strength means more wounds per turn and game than normal.

Although purely anecdotal, my personal record against allied IoM lists is much better than against Tau or Eldar. IoM lists must be carefully crafted to put out the firepower that Tau or Eldar casually deploy.