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AP2 is so prevelant in the game that it's not expensive to use or rare. I always thought shooting should not be as good at piercing armor as melee which would give people a reason to "drive me closer so I can hit him with my sword."

First up grav weapons. They are cheese if you ask me. For one they have a high rate of fire and they are ap2 and they wound the better the targets armor is. Keep them salvo 2/3 make them wound everything on a 3+ Except monstrous creatures which would be a 5+ and vehicles same as before. And make them AP-

Plasma is ok but I would consider an argument that they should drop to AP3 or have trrminators reroll saves against plasma because they were designed to withstand the heart of plasma reactor. lascannons and Melta are just where they should be.

Move from absolutes to save penalties.

I wouldn't mind that at all but PPL already complain about complexity as is.

Make it more costly points wise and more risky all around, anything AP2 or AP1 regardless of the army should have some kind of drawback. Whether it is through it being a heavy weapon, Gets Hot, or whatever.

grav is really the only issue i see for ap2 issues

other armies get plasma equivalent without the gets hot danger which i think is unfair.

 Filch wrote:
other armies get plasma equivalent without the gets hot danger which i think is unfair.

Really? Who does?
I can't think of a single non-Imperium(or CSM) army that has access to rapid fire S7 ap2 weapons on its infantry.

To answer your question, I think the answer is making it cost more/ be more rare.
However it would be very difficult to houserule this as you would have to take into account all of the interactions between codices.
If by some chance GW were to switch to a "One Codex for All" format, this would be solvable. Sadly, that will probably never happen.

 Mordred wrote:

First up grav weapons. They are cheese if you ask me. For one they have a high rate of fire and they are ap2 and they wound the better the targets armor is. Keep them salvo 2/3 make them wound everything on a 3+

As if we need another super anti-horde weapon.

Not a fan of the "grav always wounds on 3+" idea. It sort of misses the point of the weapon (the bigger they are, the easier they fall) and makes it more effective against orks, eldar, dark eldar, IG, etc.

Grav is technically a situational weapon in that it's not very useful against non-meq armies. That's just not a great balancing factor when A.) 3+ and better armor is prolific and B.) Non-tournament games often mean you know which faction your opponent will be packing.

I'm not sure I have a great solution for grav though. I'm tempted to say its cost should just go up a bit to represent the prevalence of 3+ or better in the meta. Maybe lower its rate of fire a bit instead?

Plasma seems like the main source of AP2 in my local meta. On paper, I actually like its pricing compared to other options like meltas. The issue, I think, is when it's spammed. A marine army with a mix of plasma, melta, and flamer coming down the field doesn't really seem that scary. All plasma all the time with plasback support is where it becomes an issue.

MCs really ought to have their AP2, so no complaints there.

I hear a lot of complaints about bladestorm, and I'm always surprised by this. On average, a full 10 man squad of shuriken catapult wielvers do something like 1.5 rends. So that's 1.5 extra dead marines assuming they aren't using cover. I feel like bladestorm is something people like to complain about because of other issues in the eldar book but that they wouldn't care about at all if the major eldar issues were fixed.

Lascannons don't come cheap. No complaints about them from me.

What sources of AP 2 are particularly problematic for people?

Exocrines, Riptides, and D-Scythes are the most obnoxious things that have been fielded against me, Black Knights are something I use that I recognize are silly.


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As to grav weapons turn them into the Heresy/Necromunda grav-weapons. A grav-gun is blast, wounds based on the target's Strength, and if the target unit is wounded make them move as if through difficult terrain next turn. It makes them less absurd, more characterful, and gives them a niche that's not "plasma guns, only better".

Hmm. Aren't exocrines literally the only ranged AP2 weapon tyranids have aside from the 2 shot gun the tyrannofex has (which is terrible)? Riptides are definitely powerful enough to need some toning down or tweaking. d-scythes are good when they get into range, but are they a frequent problem? I always thought of wraithguard as a good-but-not-broken option.

 Mordred wrote:
I wouldn't mind that at all but PPL already complain about complexity as is.

This is the problem, 40k is only complex due to it's layout and way the rukebook is written. Relevent rules to each other are often spaced out, hidden away or not under a summary. It's like there's a team of writers who write a section each and pass on the occasional note to each other with the end result not having someone go over it and it's just thrown together.

Armour modifiers are simple enough imo

 AnomanderRake wrote:

As to grav weapons turn them into the Heresy/Necromunda grav-weapons. A grav-gun is blast, wounds based on the target's Strength, and if the target unit is wounded make them move as if through difficult terrain next turn. It makes them less absurd, more characterful, and gives them a niche that's not "plasma guns, only better".

How about no, as those versions are the biggest pieces of garbage. Probably up there for worst guns in the game.

I'll give up grav when MCs lose their 2+ saves. There's a gulf between undercosted MCs with 2+ saves and terrible infantry with 2+ saves like terminators. The 2+ save becomes much more valuable as toughness increases.

Grav weapons are there to make people decide whether or not to spend points on the wraithknight/riptides of the world. The profusion of mid strength ap 2 is there for the same reason. Losing these would allow MORE super monsters to flood the table.
The only ones who complain about the amount of ap2 in the game, are armies that are formed around 2+ armor. If there were ap1 melee weapons, I would suggest making terminator armor 1+ save. You still fail on a roll of 2+, but would be immune to plasma.
The main culprit for the spamming of ap2, are the eldar/ dark eldar. The eldar have more, because they have incredibly low saves. Hence, they remove your armor save on occasion. Dark eldar have survivability built in with power from pain. Before anyone jumps on the "what about wraithknight and wave serpents" tangent, they aren't the basic troops with pseudo rending I see people complain about, and the guns they use that make everyone hate them aren't multi shot ap2.

What?

The game is balanced like a large RPS game?
Grav beats MechaKnightTides.
MechaKnightTides beat TAC lists.
TAC lists have a chance against Grav.

Something seems wrong here...

Players shouldn't be forced to go Grav or Big Scary Model. There should be more options.

People really do complain about bladestorm, but is it really all that big a deal? It really comes in 4 varieties:
Shuriken Cannons are simply weaker Assault Cannons. One less shot, one less base AP, and no effect on vehicle. You're looking at less than 1 AP2 wound every other round. At 24". And aren't taken in large numbers.
Guardians. Wtf. 12". AP'd by Boltguns. Still lose more per point within 12" from naked Marines than they kill, by a wide margin.
Guardian Jetbikes. 17ppm for 2 12" s4 bladestorm. Gets a JSJ after though. An annoyance, but not a lot of firepower.
Dire Avengers. Lots of threads have shown they win against naked CSM at 12-18", but lose handily at anything else. For the exact same price.

Marines have Sniper Scouts. Yes, only BS3. But, in addition to *always* wounding on a 4+, they have the same ap2-on-a-6. Twice or thrice the range, but heavy1 instead Assault 2. For a price between a Guardian and a DA. Half the shots might hurt, but they have:
-Substantially longer range
-Substantially more survivable
-Can threaten rear-AV10s that come close
-Much better in CC
Yet they are considered meh.
So I really don't think Blade storm is really a problem.

Another problem is selection bias. Why take an AP3 Krak missile to pop tanks, compared to AP2 Lascannon or Plasma Cannon? The Krak missile has 0 chance at popping anything not open topped. And is worth almost nothing against Riptides, Dreadknights, Broadsides, or anything else with a 2+. So, even if the points difference were huge, people will take a few AP2/1 over even more AP3.

That Krak missile might be a threat to Wraithknights and a terror to Wraithlords, but it just doesn't matter most of the time. 3+s are a lot easier to drop with volume of fire.

With no other save, APing 3+ is 3x better than not APing it. That number shrinks to 2x better if there is a 5+ cover/invuln (usually is, for shooting).

With no other save, APing a 2+ is 6x better than not. With a 5+ cover/invuln, its still 4x better.

So, an AP3 weapon is usually unnecessary. Against a 3+, weight of fire is usually sufficient. And any AP1/2 brought is just as effective. Against 2+, though, AP3 is no better than AP-. So, predictably, people spam AP1/2 where possible. Leading to it being far more ubiquitous than it should. Because anything without it is that much less likely to be taken.

While cheap AP2 could be reigned in (Grav, perhaps fewer shots or something? Perhaps wound on 3+ at best? Blade storm could be AP3? Etc), AP3 needs to mean more.

Two places this would need to change:
Vehicles:
-AP3 gets +1 on damage table. AP2 +2, AP1 +3 (giving those 3 the damage they had in 6th, while high-S high-AP still needs to strip HP. Seems more as intended.)

Armor Saves:
-Best answer I've seen is an armor save modifier.
-Perhaps something light like AP4 reduces 2+ or 3+ by one, AP3 reduces 2+ by two.
-Or each AP reduces one-better saves by one (AP4 causes 3+ saves to roll 4+, still ignores 4+, still doesn't affect 2+

Armor Save Modifiers are said to substantially slow down the game. And hurt survivability too much. For the first, I'd rather a longer 1500pt game where more things matter than a faster 2000pt game as is. For Survivability, while it would require substantial rebalancing, taking all saves should fix the survivability hit. Ideally, I'd do the following:

Take all saves.
Cover:
All base sources reduced by 1, min 6+ (ruins are now 5+, intervening is 6+, etc)
Shrouded is a +1 benefit
(Perhaps some - possibly all -should be to-hit modifiers, but that is its own can of worms)

Armor:
APs are now Armor Save Modifiers (ASM)
AP6/-: 0
AP5: 1
AP4: 2
AP3: 3
AP2: 4
AP1: 5

(Note that AP2 would give a base 2+ a 6+ chance, seems OK to me).
Autocannons would hurt Marines half the time (assuming hit/wound). Power Swords would do something to 2+s, but not be as good as an axe.

Invulns:
Most base saves should be reduced by 1 (Storm Shields, for example).
Demons should be unaffected, probably.
No invuln should ever be a 2+. Capped at 3+.

Rerolls:
-If it specifies, only that save can be rerolled. If its any save (Fortune, Tzeech), it can only be used on one save type.

Vehicles:
How bout, damage table result = d6 + ASM - remaining HP?
Any result of 0 or lower is a glance
Land Raiders would be less likely to Explode than Rhinos.
Damage effect chance goes up evenly with AP, with only low-AP weapons having a chance to blow vehicles up, and the more damaged it is, the more likely to be heavily damaged.
Also, 2HP vehicles will be easier to do nasty pen-effects to than 3hp, which are easier than 4hp.
Also, superheavies wouldn't need a special rule for pen protections. Perhaps an additional modifier, but when you have 6 HP remaining, a pen effect is unlikely. When a Phantom has 2 HP left, losing a weapon, despite being a superheavy, seems fine.

Long, rambly post. Much I've said before. What'cyahll think?

Armor save modifiers made loyalist marines useless in 2nd ed. What you propose would likely do the same. I'd only entertain armor save mods with a D10-based system.

No, you have it all backwards. There should be 4x as much ap2. Power armor is as good as a Tshirt in the this grimdark world.

Marines should die to a stiff breeze if they can not have plot armor belonging to Movie Marines.

But if there if you make 4x the ap2 then orks won't feel special anymore.

For shooting, Plasma, lascannon equivalents and demolisher Cannon should be the only ap 2 in the game. Melta and fusion should be the only ap 1.

Grav should wound based on toughness and be ap 3.

If you want less AP2, the big rule change to make that happen is allow AP 3 and 4 to destroy vehicles without running them out of hullpoints. Suddenly Missile Launchers are cheap and viable alternatives to Lascannons and Melta weapons. Tau will have reason to equip Riptides with Heavy Burst Cannons and Crisis suits with Missile Pods again to boot.

DarthDiggler wrote:
For shooting, Plasma, lascannon equivalents and demolisher Cannon should be the only ap 2 in the game. Melta and fusion should be the only ap 1.

Grav should wound based on toughness and be ap 3.

No, because there are 2+ save MCs.


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Jefffar wrote:
If you want less AP2, the big rule change to make that happen is allow AP 3 and 4 to destroy vehicles without running them out of hullpoints. Suddenly Missile Launchers are cheap and viable alternatives to Lascannons and Melta weapons. Tau will have reason to equip Riptides with Heavy Burst Cannons and Crisis suits with Missile Pods again to boot.

Missile launchers would still be crap because of MCs with 2+ saves.

Maybe replace the profiles for Grav weapons with the graviton weapon profiles from 30k

Increase cost, by 10 points in General.

Make a Plasma gun into a ranged Power Fist, it is still usefull, but expensive as hell...

And gravguns became a really expensive option, with very limited use (not effective against vehicles).

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Increase cost, by 10 points in General.

Make a Plasma gun into a ranged Power Fist, it is still usefull, but expensive as hell...

And gravguns became a really expensive option, with very limited use (not effective against vehicles).

Not until MCs lose 2+ saves. Until then, we need cheap, plentiful AP 2, because we need to generate huge amounts of AP 2 wounds.

Isn't grav actually pretty much identical to or inferior to plasma (other than not possibly killing the user) against all targets but ones with really, really high toughness?

They have exactly the same change to put a wound on a carnifex or a terminator or riptide, while plasma has a 1/3 chance of doing it to a wraithknight and grav a 2/3. The main difference against most targets actually seems to be Concussive.

There's the extra shot, too. And the extra range for multiple shots. 3 shots -> 18" vs 2 shots ->12".

Grav is certainly useful, but its terrible against things like orks or nid swarms. That's the balancing factor. Plasma can kill both equally well but you risk killing yourself in the process.

" like orks or nid swarms"

Fortunately, bikes also have TL bolters.

That's not a problem of grav, that's the fact that biker Marines are extremely versatile/good.