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Can we take anything a Greater Demon of Tzeentch says as anything of value though?

Maybe he was trying to force more ambition into the Lion to start him on his path to chaos?

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Can we take anything a Greater Demon of Tzeentch says as anything of value though?

Maybe he was trying to force more ambition into the Lion to start him on his path to chaos?

Reference? If we're gonna start inferring on the intentions of a Daemon with no evidence, I'm out. The way the lore is written, we essentially have to take what he says at face value.

Isn't Sanguinius a mutant and already tainted by chaos?

So although he was probably the most loyal or pure of the primarch's the imperium's stance on chaos and mutants would have left him with plenty of reasons betray it.

Hence why I picked Vulkan over him.

Taffy17 wrote:
Isn't Sanguinius a mutant and already tainted by chaos?

So although he was probably the most loyal or pure of the primarch's the imperium's stance on chaos and mutants would have left him with plenty of reasons betray it.

Hence why I picked Vulkan over him.

Its never stated whether the wings were a mutation or if the Emperor created him that way. Considering how the Emperor didn't skip a beat when first encountering Sanguinius I'm inclined to believe that he always had the wings.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Can we take anything a Greater Demon of Tzeentch says as anything of value though?

Maybe he was trying to force more ambition into the Lion to start him on his path to chaos?

Reference? If we're gonna start inferring on the intentions of a Daemon with no evidence, I'm out. The way the lore is written, we essentially have to take what he says at face value.

I disagree, Tzeentch is heavily portrayed as a manipulator, a liar. The way the lore is written, we SHOULD doubt anything a Tzeentch daemon says.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

I almost didn't him on there, but I thought, "Surely, there aren't people that'd actually vote for him, right?"

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Rogal Dorn. He seems to have been made with the same attributes as the Custodes and his loyalty to the Emperor is placed above all else.

His pain fetish though could have put him over the edge. Too much masochism and he could have fallen to Slaanesh before he vanished into thin air.

Also, I'd have to say a tie between Sanguinius and Vulkan. Vulkan is a genuine humanitarian and the fire in his belly burns for one purpose and that purpose only- the protection of the meek. The only way I could see him falling to Chaos is if he believed he found definite proof that civilian life would be better under Chaos then under the Emperor, and there's a fat chance of that ever happening. As for Sanguinius, he's SPEEESSS Jesus.

Yea, I'm going with Vulkan on this one. The Salamanders are just all around nice guys whereas the Blood Angels have always had a bloodthirsty side to them. And while Sanguinius was ultimately incorruptible, he did have close brushes with Chaos.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

I almost didn't him on there, but I thought, "Surely, there aren't people that'd actually vote for him, right?"

Why? If Angron and Fulgrim can fall along with Mortarion, Curze, Lorgar and Horus, why shouldn't he be on the list? As it stands, he didn't fall to Chaos and actually fought against it.

Lots of support for Sanguinius on this thread, and while I agree that he's a pretty cool dude, I can actually see a rather compelling way for him to fall.

Sanguinius' weakness is that he cares about people. The Emperor is cold and ruthless. This could very easily put them at odds. Sangy also has the issue with all his sons suffering the Black Rage. If Sangy were brought far enough into despair, he could be corrupted through his desire to save his legion/humanity from destruction.

This fall would be a lot closer to what actually happened to Magnus than a purely ego-driven fall like Perturabo's or Fulgrim's. I could see Vulkan falling for the same reason. Magnus, Horus, and, to a lesser extent, Alpharus, were all corrupted through their desires to help people.

As for the Primarch least likely to fall, I have to go with Dorn. He was loyal and modest to a fault. Corax held a lot of hate towards Horus, and while that would make siding with him unlikely, it could still lead to corruption. He's also a lot like Curze in some ways. And Guilleman was ambitious and prideful. Even before he started throwing his weight around when the Emp was put on life support, he was putting down his brothers left and right for no real reason and convinced of his own superiority.

In fact, a lot of the loyalist/traitor primarchs are mirrors of each other: Sanguinius/Horus, Corax/Curze, Guilleman/Fulgrim, Angron/Russ, Mortarion/Lion El'Johnson. Those are just the ones that stick out to me. You might be able to pair all of them up this way.

 fallinq wrote:
Lots of support for Sanguinius on this thread, and while I agree that he's a pretty cool dude, I can actually see a rather compelling way for him to fall.

Sanguinius' weakness is that he cares about people. The Emperor is cold and ruthless. This could very easily put them at odds. Sangy also has the issue with all his sons suffering the Black Rage. If Sangy were brought far enough into despair, he could be corrupted through his desire to save his legion/humanity from destruction.

This fall would be a lot closer to what actually happened to Magnus than a purely ego-driven fall like Perturabo's or Fulgrim's. I could see Vulkan falling for the same reason. Magnus, Horus, and, to a lesser extent, Alpharus, were all corrupted through their desires to help people.

As for the Primarch least likely to fall, I have to go with Dorn. He was loyal and modest to a fault. Corax held a lot of hate towards Horus, and while that would make siding with him unlikely, it could still lead to corruption. He's also a lot like Curze in some ways. And Guilleman was ambitious and prideful. Even before he started throwing his weight around when the Emp was put on life support, he was putting down his brothers left and right for no real reason and convinced of his own superiority.

In fact, a lot of the loyalist/traitor primarchs are mirrors of each other: Sanguinius/Horus, Corax/Curze, Guilleman/Fulgrim, Angron/Russ, Mortarion/Lion El'Johnson. Those are just the ones that stick out to me. You might be able to pair all of them up this way.

You can, though I'd say that it's Russ/Magnus (both were Psykers, but one lied about it due to societal conditionong), who hated each other to an fault and were the antithesis of each other.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

I almost didn't him on there, but I thought, "Surely, there aren't people that'd actually vote for him, right?"

Its just plain beautiful every time this debate sparks, and I love seeing the anger about it.

 dusara217 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Lots of support for Sanguinius on this thread, and while I agree that he's a pretty cool dude, I can actually see a rather compelling way for him to fall.

Sanguinius' weakness is that he cares about people. The Emperor is cold and ruthless. This could very easily put them at odds. Sangy also has the issue with all his sons suffering the Black Rage. If Sangy were brought far enough into despair, he could be corrupted through his desire to save his legion/humanity from destruction.

This fall would be a lot closer to what actually happened to Magnus than a purely ego-driven fall like Perturabo's or Fulgrim's. I could see Vulkan falling for the same reason. Magnus, Horus, and, to a lesser extent, Alpharus, were all corrupted through their desires to help people.

As for the Primarch least likely to fall, I have to go with Dorn. He was loyal and modest to a fault. Corax held a lot of hate towards Horus, and while that would make siding with him unlikely, it could still lead to corruption. He's also a lot like Curze in some ways. And Guilleman was ambitious and prideful. Even before he started throwing his weight around when the Emp was put on life support, he was putting down his brothers left and right for no real reason and convinced of his own superiority.

In fact, a lot of the loyalist/traitor primarchs are mirrors of each other: Sanguinius/Horus, Corax/Curze, Guilleman/Fulgrim, Angron/Russ, Mortarion/Lion El'Johnson. Those are just the ones that stick out to me. You might be able to pair all of them up this way.

You can, though I'd say that it's Russ/Magnus (both were Psykers, but one lied about it due to societal conditionong), who hated each other to an fault and were the antithesis of each other.

But when I'm looking for mirrors, I'm not looking for primarch's antitheses, I'm looking for primarchs who are very similar in temperament, strengths, and weaknesses. It's very useful for questions like this. So Magnus/Russ wouldn't fit the bill, because, while they were both psykers, they were opposites in personality and interests. Magnus was a calm, logical guy who valued knowledge above all else and was willing to make compromises and be dishonest to get what he wanted (going underground with his legion's sorcery, rather than be openly rebellious when it was outlawed). Russ valued emotions far more than knowledge, had problems with authority and anger issues, and considered giving his word a sacred bond. What's going to cause one to fall won't apply to the other.

This is the same reason I wouldn't put Perturabo as the Chaos version of Dorn. They both get lumped together a lot because they're the "siege guys" and hated each other, but Dorn's self-persecution over even his tiny failures is the exact opposite of Perturabo's "WHY'S EVERYONE DUMPING ON ME?! I DESERVE BETTER!" attitude.

Who would you put for Dorn, then? Perturabo I can see being a lot like Angron in that he was fethed over by the Imperium during the entire Great Crusade

 dusara217 wrote:
Who would you put for Dorn, then? Perturabo I can see being a lot like Angron in that he was fethed over by the Imperium during the entire Great Crusade

Yeah, but both Angron and Perturabo are both traitors. I'm looking for loyalist/traitor comparisons. Shadow archetypes, if you will.

The more I think about it, the more I match Dorn with Lorgar. I kind of feel like they both have this deep seated insecurity and self loathing that they mask with fanatical devotion to some higher power or goal.

I think Dorn does pair with Perturabo. Extermination has a whole little section about how theyre basically two sides of the same coin, not just because they're siege guys.

However I also think they don't really pair up at all, you can kind of make quite a few pairings based on quite arbitrary categories, and I think they're all complex characters in their own right.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Dorn does pair with Perturabo. Extermination has a whole little section about how theyre basically two sides of the same coin, not just because they're siege guys.

However I also think they don't really pair up at all, you can kind of make quite a few pairings based on quite arbitrary categories, and I think they're all complex characters in their own right.

I tend to agree. there are some vague surface similarties but each of the primarchs was also quite differnt

Hmm... I'd hesitate to call any "Incorruptible", but some are less likely than others.

~ Leman Russ
The man has anger management issues, authority issues, and an ego the size of a mature fenrisian Kraken. Not to mention he could be lead around by the nose into doing things that a manipulator wanted him to do (like assaulting Prospero) and was very ready to spill legion blood. Definitely corruptible

Ferrus Manus
The silver hands doesn't necessarily translate to warp immunity. C'Tan have issues with the warp but the Necrodermis is ultimately just (sophisticated) metal - it's what's inside that doesn't like psykers. Fulgrim reckoned he could be turned but then Fulgrim, more than any other primarch, is a steaming Imbecille. Certainly had no reason to be corrupted as - almost uniquely - he had no particular Dark Secret (tm) or similar curse, and was universally considered fairly honest, if short-tempered - possibly manipulated by the latter (in fact, he was - the reason he died at Istvaan is that he was too obsessed with what Fulgrim and Horus had done to think intelligently) but not to the extent of Russ or Angron.

Vulkan
Probalby not. A genuinely good man - so if corrupted, it would probably have been as a counter to the brutality of the Imperium (which, on the front line of the crusades, he wouldn't have seen).

Rogal Dorn
Unlikely, but possible - see Nemesis; as with Vulkan and Sanguinius, Dorn is loyal to the Imperium and Humanity above even his loyalty to the Emperor (Valdor, by comparison, doesn't see any distinction between the two). Despite his stone face, he has a human heart - which is why Peturabo knows he can breach the palace ("He won't have turned the palace into a fortress perfectly because he's want to put it all back"), and unfortunately for the Emperor, many parts of the Imperium aren't good for humanity.

Roboute Guilliman
Very corruptible. He has a very human character and has some of the closest friendships with astartes and humans. Plus Ultramar. Suppose the Imperium had determined that his personal vest-pocket empire being answerable to him before Terra was a seditious idea, and had tried to take action? Especially if, for example, his "mother" had been killed in the process?

Sanguinius
As an individual - as noted, he's space jesus. The flaw is there, and provides an 'in' - more for his legion than for him, though. I'll be honest - I'd trust Lorgar's absolute opinion even if you think Horus is just being an egotist.

Lion El'jonson
Absolutely loyal to the Emperor. Which means he's allowed to do things which in no way fit that description (like using proscribed technology, disobeying his own sworn oath at nikea, etc, etc). Also ambitious (wanting support to be the 'next' warmaster). Also a lousy judge of people. All told, not a great candidate for "hey, do you want to betray the emperor?" corruption (like Angron) but a prime target for "holy crap, I'm a traitor and didn't realise until too late!" like Magnus.

Jaghatai Khan
Well, he's a bit of a mystery to everyone. Which is kind of the point.

Corax
The one I'd point at as least likely, for two reasons. Firstly, he's one of the few genuinely 'good people' amongst the primarchs, but at the same time is already aware what hive-scum life is like in the imperium (he's lived it). More importantly, it's heavily hinted that he's a pariah - the invisibility trick, his avowed lack of psychic powers (which most primarchs have, at least at an instinctive level) and above all his ability to see 'revalation' rather than the emperor.
If I had to plump for one of them, I'd say Corax.

The lion he is like Stannis, he'll break before he bends

After taking on curze he went to Ultramar willing to end Gulliman and the ultramarines if they dared turn on the emperor

He deals in absolute

 mitch_rifle wrote:
The lion...
He deals in absolute

those who deal in absolutes tend to be problems waiting to happen though as they don't handle comprimise well

I actually believe the Lion has a credible defense here in that Chaos tried and found it had absolutely nothing to offer him. The gods of whim and fancy could not, for the literal life of them, think of one thing this sociopath could want.

Some of you seem to be mistaking high-functioning sociopathy with warp-taint.

It's my personal belief that the Lion knew about Chaos the whole time from his early years on Caliban. The Knights of Lupus basically worshiped Chaos and tried their best to keep the Chaos Daemons from being exterminated, and had a fething HUGE garganturan massive miles-high library regarding everything they knew in the universe - especially Chaos. The Lion preserved this library for further study, so it seems to me that he knew about Chaos and how to control it the whole time - you may note that Luther learned runecraft from this Library and this library was basically how Luther first contacted the forces of Chaos.

Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

natpri771 wrote:
Corax, he cares more about helping people than anything that could lead them to fall to chaos. Corax was also the only Primarch who hated Horus with a passion. This was due to Horus trying to take control of his legion and the assault on gate 42, where Horus and Perturabo used the Raven Guard as cannon fodder.

This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mitch_rifle wrote:
The lion he is like Stannis, he'll break before he bends

After taking on curze he went to Ultramar willing to end Gulliman and the ultramarines if they dared turn on the emperor

He deals in absolute

Horrible comparrison. Stannis did a lot of bending. Going as far as changing religion and sending a shadow demon to assassinate his brother. Or maybe it is a better comparrison than I firrst thought......hmmmm.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

Okay seriously I don't know why you get so worked up in your posts, I was literally just asking, because I didn't know. I haven't read the two DA books so from my limited grasp I just thought they thought they were native beasts.

Ferrus Manus, because

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ferus Manus. If the rumours about his hands being Living Metal are true, that's a built-in anti-warp-taint device right there.

and because he's just too damn stubborn to change his mind on anything, let alone something as drastic as the Emperor!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

Okay seriously I don't know why you get so worked up in your posts, I was literally just asking, because I didn't know. I haven't read the two DA books so from my limited grasp I just thought they thought they were native beasts.

Did I come across as worked up? I was using "friggin" and capital letters as a means of emphasizing certain words, because i'm too lazy to use bold and italics. I'm actually quite calm.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

Okay seriously I don't know why you get so worked up in your posts, I was literally just asking, because I didn't know. I haven't read the two DA books so from my limited grasp I just thought they thought they were native beasts.

Did I come across as worked up? I was using "friggin" and capital letters as a means of emphasizing certain words, because i'm too lazy to use bold and italics. I'm actually quite calm.

It's not just that post, it's a general trend with your posts.

IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

Shh, you can't speak positively about Ultramarines around here, they'll kill you for such heresy!

For what its worth though, I totally agree. He was the most level-headed of the bunch and his key aspect that the Chaos Gods might've fed on would be pride/duty.

Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.