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 Manchu wrote:
One of Horus's greates strategic accomplishments was keeping the UM away from Terra. People talk about this as if it was the result of Guilliman being dumb or something. It's funny how a lot of fans don't give Horus the credit he actually deserves. I think this is because McNeill wrote him so poorly.

This is why I think he was so successful. I still think its hilarious people say that the DA were sitting back and being lazy, even though they were besieged and actively trying to fight the Night Lords. UM are still pretty Mary Sue to me, but they fought well on Terra, and I don't think Guilliman could've acted any differently for better effect.

I actually think Horus acted perfectly, springing his traps when he knew they would do the most damage.

Fought well on Terra? They didn't fight on Terra.

I still maintain that all the UM Mary Sueishness is all post heresy, because in the HH stuff I really don't think they read as Mary Sue at all.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
One of Horus's greates strategic accomplishments was keeping the UM away from Terra. People talk about this as if it was the result of Guilliman being dumb or something. It's funny how a lot of fans don't give Horus the credit he actually deserves. I think this is because McNeill wrote him so poorly.

This is why I think he was so successful. I still think its hilarious people say that the DA were sitting back and being lazy, even though they were besieged and actively trying to fight the Night Lords. UM are still pretty Mary Sue to me, but they fought well on Terra, and I don't think Guilliman could've acted any differently for better effect.

I actually think Horus acted perfectly, springing his traps when he knew they would do the most damage.

The belief that the DA sat around being lazy comes from the fact that for most of 40k's lifespan that was all we knew about them. Until the HH novels came out all we knew was that the Dark Angels were not involved in any of the major engagments, didn't make it to Terra in time, and then had a rebellion of their own to deal with. I'm assuming a lot of people still haven't read the HH novels pertaining to the Dark Angels, and still refer to the old information (or lack thereof).

 Manchu wrote:
It is unfair to say Guilliman was "lording it up" when in reality he was actually saving the Imperium from collapse ... something Dorn was at the very least, at that point, psychologically (if not also intellectually) incapable of doing. And Dorn neither led nor as far as I am aware did the IF principally contribute to the Scouring.

According to their IA article, they did. I also don't see any reference to Dorn being psychologically or intellectually incapable of leading. Grief stricken, yes, insane as you put it later in your post, no. Dorns priorities were the Traitors. Wrong choice, maybe, but not for Dorn at this point who felt that he had to serve penance for his failing. Was it his fault that the Emperor was wounded nearly to death, no. But he felt like it was.

While the Ultramarines maintained order within the Imperium, the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, levelling fortress after fortress. Dorn led them, dressed in the black of mourning, his customary mercy set aside until the guilty were punished. While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It was rumoured that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance. After all, were the Traitors not his brothers? Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of the Space Marines.

 Manchu wrote:
Most importantly, Guilliman's greatest accomplishment was not securing the stability of the Imperium but voluntarily surrendering his rulership over it once he stabilized it. This is the ultimate sign of loyalty, which no other primarch can claim.

True, but then he got to mould the Imperium into how he saw fit. Wasn't Guilliman also one of the first High Lords, the Lord Commander of the Imperium?

 Manchu wrote:
Meanwhile, Dorn was spending increasingly long periods inside the Pain Glove. Pretty Slaaneshi if you ask me. Even after he backed down on the Codex issue, he remained nearly insane as proven by the Iron Cage incident. There again, Guilliman and the UM stepped in. This rescue seemed to finally bring Dorn and the IF to their senses. But Dorn's corruption lives on in the BT, who unsurprisingly are incredibly insecure about anything to do with the Warp.

The length mentioned is 7 days and I see no mention of increasingly long periods. Not all pain leads to corruption, some gain strength from it. The Iron Cage was what made Dorn come to his senses and split the Legions. It's what finally cleansed his being of his failure to protect the Emperor.

And surely the Black Templars are right to have insecurities about the warp, especially after the Heresy and the way it was used during that.

But I can see your theory.

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
and which Guilliman apparently directed ...

Not seen this mentioned before, where is this from?

 Manchu wrote:
Fought well on Terra? They didn't fight on Terra.

Derp. Meant Calth, not Terra. I shouldn't post before I have coffee

Were you able to find mention in IA of Guilliman "swanning about"?

Stabilizing the Imperium was an objectively higher priority than confining the traitors for the simple reason that the former contained the latter and the latter assumed the former. I mean, what would we say about Guilliman if he interpreted the Emperor's death as his personal failure? That's irrational. It is no less irrational for Dorn to say it. Furthermore, Dorn interpreted what needed to be done in personal terms -- which is why he prioritized salving his own irrationally guilty conscious over saving his father's empire.

Maybe you will not find it explicitly spelled out in IA but it is clear that (a) Dorn was not in his right mind after the Siege of Terra and (b) his mental state was seriously deteriorating at least up until the Cage Incident. Pain did not make Rogal Dorn stronger. It caused him to make objectively bad decisions and ultimately Guilliman and the UM had to step in to save him from the consequences.

I thought about it after I picked corax, and I still agree that Corax would be the least likely to fall... However, I think that Corax could have fallen if he found out wether through lies or the truth that the Imperium was just as harsh a slave master as the ones on deliverance. Or something along those lines, as he is the slave fighter after all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah I think Barbaras and Baal are pretty equal. I mean poison gas that kills you if you walk in it or radiation that kills you if you walk in it, it's much of a muchness really.

Yes, but Barbarous had safe zones; the valleys where the humans lived. On Baal, literally the entire planet is covered in radiation, and rad suits and vehicles are the only way to survive.

Tiger9gamer, your picture reminds me of Jason from Home movies. I'd vote Dorn. All the primarchs were corruptible to varying degrees, but I feel that Dorn would've held off longer than most.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah I think Barbaras and Baal are pretty equal. I mean poison gas that kills you if you walk in it or radiation that kills you if you walk in it, it's much of a muchness really.

Yes, but Barbarous had safe zones; the valleys where the humans lived. On Baal, literally the entire planet is covered in radiation, and rad suits and vehicles are the only way to survive.

Surely there are also places of shelter on Baal unless the planet is completely devoid of any mountains, caves, and other features. The descriptions of the planets don't make them sound that much different, only on Baal the threat was from wandering tribes of mutants, whereas on Barbarus there was actually an organized warp-tainted alien presence that actively preyed on the humans and kept them in line. Plus the greatest of all of the alien warlords was out of reach of Mortarion, even with a protective suit.

A description of Baal :

"For the few surviving humans, existence was a constant struggle. They wandered the surface in ramshackle vehicles, desperately hoping that their patched-together radiation suits would save them, praying that they would never hear the hideous tell-tale clicking of their rad-counters, a sound that meant death was imminent. For a time it seemed that humanity was doomed and soon there would only be an endless desert ruled over by the feuding mutant tribes"

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Baal

And descriptions of Barbarus :

"Of all the worlds upon which the Primarchs were scattered, few were as terrible or forlorn a place as damned Barbarus. This Feral World orbited near a dim yellow sun in the Segmentum Tempestus, which created a thick, miasmic atmosphere of toxic chemicals. The most virulent of these gases rose through Barbarus' perpetual clouds towards the heat of its star, making the world beneath a dismal place of night, unbroken by starlight and possessed of short, shadowy days."

"The world on which the young Mortarion fell was the very epitome of the terrors which had befallen Mankind during the long night of the Age of Strife -- a domain of savage, alien overlords who ruled over an entrapped and preyed-upon human population as cruel as terrible gods."

"The higher beings' incomprehensible Warp-based powers, their ability to survive where men could not, and above all their hunger to prey upon and experiment with humankind, caused the settlers to ascribe to those beings a medieval supernaturalism and an evil animus. The true nature of these dark overlords, beyond their obvious connection to the dark entities of the Empyrean, will likely never be known."

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarus

Sure, Baal was a terrible place for human existence but I don't think you can elevate it above all the other planets the Primarchs landed on. It's not even classified as a Death World (though it probably should be). Caliban is (was):

"The world of Caliban possessed as cruel and harsh an environment as any in the galaxy. Classified as a Death World by the Imperial astrocartographers, the dark, twisted forests that covered the surface of this lush, green planet were as beautiful as they were deadly. These dangerous woods were infested with creatures known as the Great Beasts who had been warped and mutated into fanatical predators by the unnatural forces of Chaos. Imperial scholars believe this was due to the Caliban System's close proximity to the Eye of Terror. Day-to-day survival was a ceaseless struggle due to the ferociousness of the ravening Great Beasts that infested the Calibanite forests. To tread the forest paths was to invite certain death."

It's also mentioned that the native flora and fauna were deadly as well ("There isn't much here that is not capable of killing a man, one way or another. Carnivorous animals, poisonous flowers, venomous insects: the creatures of this world only know one law and that is 'kill or be killed'." - from Descent of Angels, pg 11).

Without the Primarchs' intervention, these worlds would have remained that way for human life.

Also on Barbaras the necromancer guys were always going hunting for humans so I wouldn't say the valleys were safe really. Safer than the gas maybe, but not safe.

Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

I never criticised him for that, so...

And maybe now you know how it feels when people don't read what you're saying

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

He's more accomplished then Sanguinius. Baal is still a radioactive godforsaken wasteland. Vulkan meanwhile actually managed to improve his deathworld- kicking out the Dark Eldar, and I think he may have had a hand in building the seven citadels.

this was what I was arguing against. You chimed in for wyzilla, and took over for his side of the argument, or so it seemed

When I 'chimed in for Wyzilla' (I was just putting my opinion forward about Baal and Barbaras) the discussion was about whether Baal or Barbaras was worse. I agree with you that there wasn't much he could do for Baal.

You make it sound like me and Wyzilla are some kind of tag team haha. I will say though about reading what people are saying; people in glass houses and all that. And again, just cool the tone off a little on your posts.

 dusara217 wrote:
Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

I would say Mortarion or Angron had the most difficult challenges. I mean they faced a challenge not even the might of a Primarch could overcome.

 dusara217 wrote:
Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

Yes you can. It's called underground homes and a furiously good scrubbing down.

Angron fared poorly on Nuceria, which is probably not because Nuceria is so terrible ... more like Angron never had the ambition of, say, Fulgrim. I don't have a great sense of the scale of Mortarion's war against his adoptive father but it seems to me that he didn't greatly improve Barbarus, either.

I don't know why Baal Secundus is being held up as such a great challenge, it's just radiation.The bigger issue is that we don't know much about what Sanguinius did before the Emperor showed up in contrast to, for example, Fulgrim who masterminded a 180 degree turnaround of a planetary economy. As far as I can tell, Vulkan just kicked some DE out of a single town.

Wasn't Fulgrims planet irradiated too? I know it was pretty inhospitable and desolate.

I don't know, I think it was just an economic disaster based on over-mining. Does Vol II or III of the HH series contain any info on Chemos?

I believe Calth were made due to meddling of the star. Showers the start difference between between a Primarch intervening for the good for the planet and the ones that doesn't You also have. Both Dorn abd Guilliman managed to improve planets they, and Guilliman was cast at besically green fields in a harsh system with a little trade already (people would be shocked if the opened a book about Afrika and saw this, But it seems to be the easier challenge,

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know, I think it was just an economic disaster based on over-mining. Does Vol II or III of the HH series contain any info on Chemos?

Chemos would be in Book I, in the EC section. I know there was like storms with razor metal and stuff that would shred people and stuff like that, I just pictured it to be irradiated but I dunno if it's cos I read that or made it up.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

I would say Mortarion or Angron had the most difficult challenges. I mean they faced a challenge not even the might of a Primarch could overcome.

Angron would have overcome, if the Emperor hadn't been a gakker and abducted him at a crucial moment, leaving his men to die.

 fallinq wrote:
Angron would have overcome, if the Emperor hadn't been a gakker and abducted him at a crucial moment, leaving his men to die.

The background points towards Angron definitely dying had he stayed. I hear that the reason the Emperor took Angron but left the others is because the world had become compliant peacefully and as such the gladiators were in revolt against a loyal regime (though why the Emperor couldn't try to enforce an amnesty and move the gladiators off-world I do not know).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
(though why the Emperor couldn't try to enforce an amnesty and move the gladiators off-world I do not know).

Again, because the Emperor is a gakker. On another note, I just learned that Dakkadakka censors a certain very mild English curse word with "gakker".

 dusara217 wrote:
this was what I was arguing against. You chimed in for wyzilla, and took over for his side of the argument, or so it seemed

Oi, I'm your opponent here. Did you not read my eloquent post? Nah, I'm just kidding but you might want to take your own advice and cool off.

And yea, underground shelters. It's basically Fallout in space. Calth managed somehow. And how would you have fixed Barbarus? The gas was caused by the planet's position in relation to its star, not much you can do about that either.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Chemos would be in Book I

Ugh I was hoping you wouldn't say that. My copy is buried under mounds of stuff.

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