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You know, it seems like a good idea that the label "gamers" should be dead.
Since gamergate or even well before, misogyny will always be attached to it.

I am tired of trying to have decent discussion on the future direction of game software and then having some latent or active prejudice towards women pointed out as preventing it's proper development. Like with anything in life, yes, it can be there, also it can also be done without as well, spend your money appropriately.

This garbage keeps making good people feel like apologizing for their gender, which is also wrong.
What is that rule? If a thread goes on long enough it will talk about Nazis?
I suppose any on gaming will mention misogyny.
Kill the label, it is irredeemable now.

To be absolutely fair, misogyny in the gaming world, and in the real actual world that spawned it is vanishingly rare. It's simply the new buzzword that replaced sexism because sexism was losing it's luster. Having prejudice towards women is not inherently misogyny, stereotyping women is not inherently misogyny, pandering to men -or women - is not inherently misogyny.

Misogyny is hating women, solely and specifically because they are women. Attacking a specific woman, because you think she is a witch or a liar - not misogyny.

 mattyrm wrote:
Loads of militant feminists are kicking off about it saying "Mr Gray is a rapist"

Those so-called "militant" feminists are right.

He is a rapist.

Its audience doesn't change this at all.


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 Bromsy wrote:
To be absolutely fair, misogyny in the gaming world, and in the real actual world that spawned it is vanishingly rare

Citation needed.

Recent studies regarding STEM fields contradict your assertion. Studies showing the existence of gender bias in hiring practices and elsewhere are extremely common. Unsurprisingly, it's also mostly men that dismiss these studies out of hand or simply ignore their existence to begin with.

tl;dr: it's not rare, and saying that it's rare doesn't actually make it rare.

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Loads of militant feminists are kicking off about it saying "Mr Gray is a rapist"

Those so-called "militant" feminists are right.

He is a rapist.

Its audience doesn't change this at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
To be absolutely fair, misogyny in the gaming world, and in the real actual world that spawned it is vanishingly rare

Citation needed.

Recent studies regarding STEM fields contradict your assertion. Studies showing the existence of gender bias in hiring practices and elsewhere are extremely common. Unsurprisingly, it's also mostly men that dismiss these studies out of hand or simply ignore their existence to begin with.

tl;dr: it's not rare, and saying that it's rare doesn't actually make it rare.

So, once again... misogyny... hatred of women simply because they are women.

I stated that sexism, prejudice and stereotyping are not inherently misogynistic , and you are refuting that by posting articles about the fact that gender bias exists? Since you apparently disagree with me, I would like to see your arguments about why sexism, prejudice and stereotyping by their very basic nature entail the hatred or contempt of women simply because they are women.

Once again, I am taking issue with the use of the word misogyny to replace various other words in our common societal lexicon that have actual definitions and meanings simply to create an emotional response because other words - that are technically correct and thus the words you should be using for things do not elicit the visceral response desired.

Yep. Mel sure does love her buzz words.

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Loads of militant feminists are kicking off about it saying "Mr Gray is a rapist"

Those so-called "militant" feminists are right.

He is a rapist.

Its audience doesn't change this at all.

Agreed. Overall, the book is horribly written, but from an objective stand point, it defines a rather abusive relationship, and not a traditional BDSM one either.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
To be absolutely fair, misogyny in the gaming world, and in the real actual world that spawned it is vanishingly rare

Citation needed.

Recent studies regarding STEM fields contradict your assertion. Studies showing the existence of gender bias in hiring practices and elsewhere are extremely common. Unsurprisingly, it's also mostly men that dismiss these studies out of hand or simply ignore their existence to begin with.

tl;dr: it's not rare, and saying that it's rare doesn't actually make it rare.

Misogyny is absolutely still alive in the real world. The "gaming world" I think a lot of it gets blown out of proportion, but the real world, especially countries outside the U.S., it is a much bigger deal.


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 Bromsy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Loads of militant feminists are kicking off about it saying "Mr Gray is a rapist"

Those so-called "militant" feminists are right.

He is a rapist.

Its audience doesn't change this at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
To be absolutely fair, misogyny in the gaming world, and in the real actual world that spawned it is vanishingly rare

Citation needed.

Recent studies regarding STEM fields contradict your assertion. Studies showing the existence of gender bias in hiring practices and elsewhere are extremely common. Unsurprisingly, it's also mostly men that dismiss these studies out of hand or simply ignore their existence to begin with.

tl;dr: it's not rare, and saying that it's rare doesn't actually make it rare.

So, once again... misogyny... hatred of women simply because they are women.

I stated that sexism, prejudice and stereotyping are not inherently misogynistic , and you are refuting that by posting articles about the fact that gender bias exists? Since you apparently disagree with me, I would like to see your arguments about why sexism, prejudice and stereotyping by their very basic nature entail the hatred or contempt of women simply because they are women.

Once again, I am taking issue with the use of the word misogyny to replace various other words in our common societal lexicon that have actual definitions and meanings simply to create an emotional response because other words - that are technically correct and thus the words you should be using for things do not elicit the visceral response desired.

How is misogyny separate from sexism? Please, explain this to me.

"Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender, typically against women. Sexism has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

Misogyny just refers to a specific type of prejudice or stereotyping, often also of a specific sexist nature. These words are not mutually exclusive.

"Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

 jreilly89 wrote:
How is misogyny separate from sexism?

A matter of degree and definition. Misogyny literally means hatred of women. The root words that make up misogyny = "hate women". Sexism =/= hatred of women. It can mean that, but it does not always do so.

It's the same as bigotry and racism:

Not all bigots/sexists are racists/misogynists.
All racists/misogynists are bigots/sexists.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
How is misogyny separate from sexism?

A matter of degree and definition. Misogyny literally means hatred of women. The root words that make up misogyny = "hate women". Sexism =/= hatred of women. It can mean that, but it does not always do so.

It's the same as bigotry and racism:

Not all bigots/sexists are racists/misogynists.
All racists/misogynists are bigots/sexists.

But I feel like that's splitting hairs. Misogyny means hatred or dislike of women, as I quoted above. If you're sexist or prejudiced against women, I think it's clear you have underlying hate or at least dislike of them. Misogyny is really just a specific sexism or prejudice.

Edit: I see what you are saying. I guess I was just confused because the poster above me was trying to say that misogyny doesn't exist, even though prejudice and sexism still do.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Yep. Mel sure does love her buzz words.

Just to know: was that about ethics in gaming journalism? I would not want to confuse this with something else.

Too shorten the entire 50 Shades thing:

Does the female protagonist consent to having sex with Grey?

Yes.

There, no rape. Not rocket science.

 jreilly89 wrote:
But I feel like that's splitting hairs.

Quite the opposite. It's using the word correctly and not robbing it of its meaning.

 jreilly89 wrote:
If you're sexist or prejudiced against women, I think it's clear you have underlying hate or at least dislike of them.

You can't know what that person is thinking. Misogyny means hatred of women. Sexism =/= hatred of women. It can be anything from disrespect to jealousy. None of those things have to involve hatred. As I said, they can, but they don't always where as misogyny always = hatred of women because that's what the word means.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Misogyny is really just a specific sexism or prejudice.

Which is exactly why we should not be throwing it around and should instead be using it correctly, not as a counter to anyone who dares even disagree with a woman.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Too shorten the entire 50 Shades thing:

Does the female protagonist consent to having sex with Grey?

Yes.

There, no rape. Not rocket science.

But Sig, she was obviously tricked/coerced/hypnotised/mind-controlled into sleeping with Grey (pick your goal-post moving excuse at your leisure... we'll call it rapesplaining: the act of intentional cognitive dissonance to explain why consensual sex is actually rape... somehow!)

Anyone who thinks that basic pick-up tricks are rape needs psychological attention. Fast. Cognitive dissonance is a super basic strategy, like telling an obviously beautiful woman that you love her humor as it it makes up for her lack of beauty.

 Bromsy wrote:
I stated that sexism, prejudice and stereotyping are not inherently misogynistic

Devaluing someone for not having a penis is pretty fething misogynistic.

If that statement pisses you off, then BE pissed off.

I haven't read 50SoG, but isn't the main problem with it not BSDM, not the position difference (Her working and him being the boss), but because she says the safeword in one scene and he ignores it? I've heard all KINDS of claims about this, even hearing that it happens all the time, that it only happens in book 3, that it only happens in book 2, but I have NO idea and no intention of reading the book (You fooled me with Twilight, ladies, but you won't be so lucky this time....)


The point is, as an outsider looking in, all I ever hear is "It describes an abusive relationship", but am never given examples as to what is going on except one thing that constantly changes when it happens (And gives the impression that people are making it up or nobody read the books).

 Slarg232 wrote:
I haven't read 50SoG, but isn't the main problem with it not BSDM, not the position difference (Her working and him being the boss), but because she says the safeword in one scene and he ignores it?

That's just one of many, many problems with it. He's an emotionally manipulative, controlling bastard who flat out doesn't 'care whether or not he has her consent, and only ever bothers to try to get it so he can use it to abuse her further.

But the biggest problem is the idea that the author pushes that, if you're loving enough "he will change" (and I do use male pronouns here because let's face it the author probably never considered the opposite) and thus you should stick with an abusive, emotionally manipulative rapist to "save" him. This is a really common idea thrown out in religious fundamentalist circles (it's not as strange to find links to fundangelicalism here as you might think; porn is really popular amongst them) to try to shame people in to saying in abusive relationships instead of divorcing or separating. No surprise that it's pushed by them, as many of the men who have power in said fundy organizations are themselves notorious abusers, rapists, and pedophiles.

... be that as it may, I'm not sure what this particular topic has to do with gaming culture? I don't think 50SoG is exceptionally popular amongst the gaming crowd.

 Melissia wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I stated that sexism, prejudice and stereotyping are not inherently misogynistic

Devaluing someone for not having a penis is pretty fething misogynistic.

If that statement pisses you off, then BE pissed off.

What? If someone loves women, absolutely adores them - but is convinced say that women are just inherently stupider than men, that person is not a misogynist. He is sexist as hell, prejudiced and stereotyping half of the population of the Earth, but he doesn't hate women. I just want words to be used properly. People started throwing misogyny around because it's relatively fresh and sounds terrible. Now it is being overused to the point of absurdity.

 Melissia wrote:
That's just one of many, many problems with it. He's an emotionally manipulative, controlling bastard who flat out doesn't 'care whether or not he has her consent, and only ever bothers to try to get it so he can use it to abuse her further.

But the biggest problem is the idea that the author pushes that, if you're loving enough "he will change" (and I do use male pronouns here because let's face it the author probably never considered the opposite) and thus you should stick with an abusive, emotionally manipulative rapist to "save" him. This is a really common idea thrown out in religious fundamentalist circles (it's not as strange to find links to fundangelicalism here as you might think; porn is really popular amongst them) to try to shame people in to saying in abusive relationships instead of divorcing or separating. No surprise that it's pushed by them, as many of the men who have power in said fundy organizations are themselves notorious abusers, rapists, and pedophiles.

You know the author is female, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._L._Jame"
"Erika Mitchell (born 7 March 1963),[1] better known by her pen name E. L. James,[2] is a British author.'

Interesting leap of logic from a female author's portrayal of a fictional male character to religious fundamentalism.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You know the author is female, right?

Am I supposed to be floored by this "revelation" (which I was already aware of) instead of not giving a damn?

Because that's not happening. I already know that. If you had a point, you failed miserably to make it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
What? If someone loves women, absolutely adores them - but is convinced say that women are just inherently stupider than men, that person is not a misogynist.

Actually, yes.

mi·sog·y·ny
məˈsäjənē
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

That qualifies for two out of the three qualifiers

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Loads of militant feminists are kicking off about it saying "Mr Gray is a rapist"

Those so-called "militant" feminists are right.

He is a rapist.

Its audience doesn't change this at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
To be absolutely fair, misogyny in the gaming world, and in the real actual world that spawned it is vanishingly rare

Citation needed.

Recent studies regarding STEM fields contradict your assertion. Studies showing the existence of gender bias in hiring practices and elsewhere are extremely common. Unsurprisingly, it's also mostly men that dismiss these studies out of hand or simply ignore their existence to begin with.

tl;dr: it's not rare, and saying that it's rare doesn't actually make it rare.

I think it's worth noting that when you look closely at the wage gap between men and women, if you control for having the same jobs women are basically paid the same as men (there's still a very small gap). However, many more men work hiher ranked jobs within most industries, inflating their statistics over women. Some of it is women dropping out of the work force to raise a family rather than pursue a long term career, but that doesn't account for all of it as far as I can tell.

 DarkLink wrote:
I think it's worth noting that when you look closely at the wage gap between men and women, if you control for having the same jobs women are basically paid the same as men (there's still a very small gap). However, many more men work hiher ranked jobs within most industries, inflating their statistics over women. Some of it is women dropping out of the work force to raise a family rather than pursue a long term career, but that doesn't account for all of it as far as I can tell.

If you look at jobs which were traditionally male-focused but a lot of women have recently gone in to them (such as veterinarians), or traditionally female-focused but a lot of men have recently gone in to them (nursing), you'll see a pattern of pay increasing where there are more men and decreasing where there are more women.

I've never read 50 Shades or even paid much attention to it, but for the sake of this thread I went to the wiki article to start on some preliminary research and the first thing I see is origin as a Twilight Fan Fiction.

Suddenly all the things I hear about the book glorifying an abusive relationship make sooooo much sense XD

Yep, it started out trashy and decided it didn't have enough trash.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
I think it's worth noting that when you look closely at the wage gap between men and women, if you control for having the same jobs women are basically paid the same as men (there's still a very small gap). However, many more men work hiher ranked jobs within most industries, inflating their statistics over women. Some of it is women dropping out of the work force to raise a family rather than pursue a long term career, but that doesn't account for all of it as far as I can tell.

If you look at jobs which were traditionally male-focused but a lot of women have recently gone in to them (such as veterinarians), or traditionally female-focused but a lot of men have recently gone in to them (nursing), you'll see a pattern of pay increasing where there are more men and decreasing where there are more women.

Isn't it a bit fallacious to consider it based upon the idea that it's solely because mostly women work there and not because, until relatively recently, women were pretty much told they could only work unskilled labor that generally pays less?

 Slarg232 wrote:
Isn't it a bit fallacious to consider it based upon the idea that it's solely because mostly women work there and not because, until relatively recently, women were pretty much told they could only work unskilled labor that generally pays less?

That would be the case if it weren't 'for the examples of male-dominated professions losing prestige, wages, and benefits as more women get in to them, like veterinarians.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You know the author is female, right?

Am I supposed to be floored by this "revelation" (which I was already aware of) instead of not giving a damn?

Because that's not happening. I already know that. If you had a point, you failed miserably to make it.

I apologize, in your long tirade that veered off into a discussion concerning the alleged sexual deviance of "religious fundamentalists" you kept using gender neutral or male pronouns. Your failure to note the author's gender, much less use a specific pronoun to identify her cast some doubt as to whether you knew the gender of said author, especially when you allege the author was pushing a point that many would consider to be harmful towards women.
Would you say that her doing so was because of internalized sexism, or were other factors perhaps at play? You may PM me your answers if you so wish, I don't see the need for this thread to go further off topic.

In any event thank you for your clarification, and trying not to make any discussion personal.

It's not relevant.

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Loads of militant feminists are kicking off about it saying "Mr Gray is a rapist"

Those so-called "militant" feminists are right.

He is a rapist.

Its audience doesn't change this at all.

Please forgive any ignorance here about the target material because while I am sure neither of us have read, or will read the fether, Im guessing you at least will have read plenty of blogs by feminists and stuff, so probably know a lot more about the story than me.

But I saw the author talking about it on BBC Newsbeat, and she said that all of the "kinky" stuff the couple use like.. codewords or whatever, so he stops if she gets massively upset with the situation. She wrote the bloody thing, is that not the case? I don't see how it can be classified as rape if that is the case surely? You can enlighten me though im sure, being stereo-typically stuffy and British and having no interest in BDSM (and even less interest in FSOG) so you will have to give me an abridged version of what the fething stupid thing entails. I think reading about David Carradine kicking the bucket is the most I know about bizarre erotic practices, the most kinky thing I get up to is deviating from the missionary position after much coaxing from my wife.

The second question I have is linked that what I was saying about "popularity."

If the vast, VAST majority of women do not want to see FSOG banned, what do you think the point is of kicking off about it? I mean, even if it is totally inappropriate, the masses do not want to see this hubub, so dont you take my point, that booting off about these things is extremely counter-productive?

If feminists want to see change they need to get the masses on side, and that will never ever happen if they antagonize them. Do you not see my point? Its surely a bad decision to complain about things that the majority of women actually line up to see, because you are just providing the misogynists with great press, they can wave this stuff in the faces of women and say "see, the feminists are crazy, you should agree with me!"

And plenty will.

So you're saying if something is popular it shouldn't be criticized?


Would you say the same thing about extremist Islam in the middle east?


And yes, I know you don't hesitate to criticize that unless you have a threat of ban going on. That's the point.

 Melissia wrote:
So you're saying if something is popular it shouldn't be criticized? Would you say the same thing about extremist Islam in the middle east? And yes, I know you don't hesitate to criticize that unless you have a threat of ban going on. That's the point.

Obviously I'm not saying that, but the difference is that you need a strategy if your attempts are going to get you anywhere, criticizing Islam is much much easier because there is no gray area when it comes to killing people and blowing gak up.

If feminists alienate women, feminists aren't going to get gak accomplished, because they are actually alienating the half of the population you would think would actually tend to agree with them!

I keep saying it, I honestly believe they should save their ire for obviously and aggressively anti-women policies instead of picking of bloody hobbies. It comes up every time we talk about it on dakka dakka, I just think if they spent more time talking about the wage gap and less time dripping about books, or comics, or minis, or Princess getting rescued off Mario, then maybe important gak would actually get done.

Fundamentally its all our disagreement ever is, I think that its counterproductive because I have never bought into the "slippery slope" argument about anything at all.

I think we can all agree that just because a majority of people like something that doesn't make it right.

Some people just never think about what they are reading. Some people don't know what a healthy relationship even looks like. And some cultures at least in the US are raised to find abusive relationships to be acceptable. Still doesn't make it right or okay.

OT:
If it wasn't for Dakka I would of never learned about GG. I still see the call against sexism in gaming a, "well duh!". I am personally against corruption in journalism. But never used game journalists to base my decisions. As I can just wait a month and look at what you guys have to say and get a good idea (except for Destiny....worst game I've ever played).

Your exposure to the obsessive "gamer" culture is one you inflict upon yourself. I'm sure there are plenty of places to discuss all aspects of gaming in mature ways.