Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

...and that isn't related to video gaming at all?

Just a question for all the people that want games to be more like "art" and less like arcade games, that do you also want that books have more sound and paintings to have more animations?

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and that isn't related to video gaming at all?

Only partially.

 Sienisoturi wrote:
Just a question for all the people that want games to be more like "art" and less like arcade games, that do you also want that books have more sound and paintings to have more animations?

Spoiler:

Tetris was already an form of art.

Arcade games aren't art?? IMO, video games are as much an art as movies are... The programmers have to spend a ton of time and effort in creating something that is enjoyable. Most successful games have some form of aesthetically pleasing elements to them, and most games that depict people in some way do so in a way that fits the overall style of the game.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Sienisoturi wrote:
Just a question for all the people that want games to be more like "art" and less like arcade games, that do you also want that books have more sound and paintings to have more animations?

Spoiler:

Tetris was already an form of art.

Arcade games aren't art?? IMO, video games are as much an art as movies are... The programmers have to spend a ton of time and effort in creating something that is enjoyable. Most successful games have some form of aesthetically pleasing elements to them, and most games that depict people in some way do so in a way that fits the overall style of the game.

I am sorry if I was a bit of unclear in my post, but it's main point was that arcade games are art, and that games should not have to appear like other types of art in order to be art.

It all depends on how you define art, i.e. how narrow your definition is. Techncially, even peeing the floor could be considered art with a very broad definition.

I'd put video games on the same level as movies. There are good examples of games that actually tell an interesting story (Planescape Torment), overly pretentious pieces (Gone Home, Dear Ester) and pee-poor, low quality off-the-line stuff (Call of Doody, Fifa 2105). Same as books...actually. So yeah, if you consider those art, then video games are art as well.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It all depends on how you define art, i.e. how narrow your definition is. Techncially, even peeing the floor could be considered art with a very broad definition.

I'd put video games on the same level as movies. There are good examples of games that actually tell an interesting story (Planescape Torment), overly pretentious pieces (Gone Home, Dear Ester) and pee-poor, low quality off-the-line stuff (Call of Doody, Fifa 2105). Same as books...actually. So yeah, if you consider those art, then video games are art as well.

It's not about what can be considered art, it's about what can be considered good art.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and that isn't related to video gaming at all?

Only partially.

que?

What part of gg isn't related to video games?

Okay I might as well dump my iddea on the subject.

Gaming culture can be just as diverse as any culture or subculture.

Certain parts of the gaming community are crappy.

Though I have been reaching out and talking to certain gaming communities in general.

I mean amidst all this. I think the majority of gamers really don't care about the politics going on.

As a Designer I've mostly been watching now, at the beginning I was active.

But over time I've been watching this creeping beast destroy parts of the community.

I think as a most designers we follow the same path as other designers. We are making games to entertain people and craft experiences.

Though if you guys are interested you could all learn about game development from me. And help me better understand the gaming community and their likes and dislikes.
(https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jSCEPKdbeKHlzXew8bwuOHVuP6iWX6hV8iKEYVljGSY/viewform)


In terms of ART. Games are art. In the best sense of the word. Games are art. But that doesn't mean that makes them avoid criticism.

Games as art is hotly debated among designers, I mean hell we still haven't figured out if games are art. WE are still talking about it.

To be honest though I do see some points about that games aren't art. There are some great points but the best ones are the points that say games are art. As games lend experience and teach us about things that happen in the game.

Games are art due to the work and effort put into it that makes normal art pieces look uncompetitive in comparison.

 Sienisoturi wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Sienisoturi wrote:
Just a question for all the people that want games to be more like "art" and less like arcade games, that do you also want that books have more sound and paintings to have more animations?

Spoiler:

Tetris was already an form of art.

Arcade games aren't art?? IMO, video games are as much an art as movies are... The programmers have to spend a ton of time and effort in creating something that is enjoyable. Most successful games have some form of aesthetically pleasing elements to them, and most games that depict people in some way do so in a way that fits the overall style of the game.

I am sorry if I was a bit of unclear in my post, but it's main point was that arcade games are art, and that games should not have to appear like other types of art in order to be art.

Ya. Games are already art and now it's more about expanding the kinds of art they can b. You know the different styles emotions and questions you can play with.

Ya. Games are already art and now it's more about expanding the kinds of art they can b. You know the different styles emotions and questions you can play with.

Games are art. And most of us are glad, we are just hoping they will become just as credible as movies are.

Even though games make more money than movies have been.

In the past few years the entertainment industry has been dominated by the games industry.

Games matter to the people who care and that can be enough. I mean there is more we can do. You know like have awards that aren't the VGAs and more critical talk and commentary. Maybe a better way to distribute our more eccentric art games. (and you know less of GG if we want to bring it up.)

nomotog wrote:
Games matter to the people who care and that can be enough. I mean there is more we can do. You know like have awards that aren't the VGAs and more critical talk and commentary. Maybe a better way to distribute our more eccentric art games. (and you know less of GG if we want to bring it up.)

Ever heard of GDC?

At GDC we have an awards ceremony for the best developers, awards for people that deserve it. GDC awards are probably the best bet in terms of video game awards.

Games are meant for our customers

Games help people out and to be honest there is so much more we could do with them.

 Sienisoturi wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It all depends on how you define art, i.e. how narrow your definition is. Techncially, even peeing the floor could be considered art with a very broad definition.

I'd put video games on the same level as movies. There are good examples of games that actually tell an interesting story (Planescape Torment), overly pretentious pieces (Gone Home, Dear Ester) and pee-poor, low quality off-the-line stuff (Call of Doody, Fifa 2105). Same as books...actually. So yeah, if you consider those art, then video games are art as well.

It's not about what can be considered art, it's about what can be considered good art.

That's implying that bad art isn't art

 Sigvatr wrote:
It all depends on how you define art, i.e. how narrow your definition is. Techncially, even peeing the floor could be considered art with a very broad definition.

I'd put video games on the same level as movies. There are good examples of games that actually tell an interesting story (Planescape Torment), overly pretentious pieces (Gone Home, Dear Ester) and pee-poor, low quality off-the-line stuff (Call of Doody, Fifa 2105). Same as books...actually. So yeah, if you consider those art, then video games are art as well.

Oh man, I can't wait for Torment: Tides of Numenura. Going to be SOOOO EPIC.

 Sigvatr wrote:
>> Videogame thread moved to Off Topic

Top tier moderating

I can't view spoiler images...was the image removed?

well the tone of the thread did change rather fast after it was moved to off topic, for the better. I wonder what the reason for that change is?

 Bullockist wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
>> Videogame thread moved to Off Topic

Top tier moderating

I can't view spoiler images...was the image removed?

well the tone of the thread did change rather fast after it was moved to off topic, for the better. I wonder what the reason for that change is?

The thread changed from a flamewar between half the forum and Hybrid Son of Oxayotl to a circlejerk?

I've been debating whether to post this story or not. I'm not even sure of the point I'm trying to make with it, or how it's relevant or even my entire opinion on it but... Anyhow, my gut says it's related, somehow.

I was at a show to see a comedian (who will remain unnamed) recently. I'll be honest, I didn't particularly enjoy the show, or even find him funny.

But anyhow. He had a bit of a question / answer session with the audience at the end and this woman was practically dancing, waving her hands for her question. He finally picked her.

W: "So, in your act, you made all these comments about why someone being sexist is a really stupid thing to be. Why then do you make jokes about rape?"

C: *Stands, looking confused.* "I didn't make any rape jokes."

W: "Not tonight but." *Points* "You, always make rape jokes."

C: *Looks even more confused, doesn't say anything for several seconds.* "I can't even think of any rape jokes, can you tell examples of what ones I've said and we'll go from there."

W: *Flusters and stutters...* "Um, um, well, I don't know any, but you tell them all the time!" *Points*

C: "Well, uh... Sorry... I guess?" *Woman sits down*

He then moves on to another question, still appearing at least, rather confused.

But yeah, I don't really want to say too much more on that, but to be honest, it was the most interesting part of the show for me and I couldn't help but go away thinking about it.

Now, I do think this fits into this topic, but the way it fits in probably does depend greatly upon your point of view and, as I've said, I'm not entirely sure what my opinion of it is, especially considering I don't exactly follow the comedian (he could be playing dumb, for example).

Anyhow, some food for thought.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
>> Videogame thread moved to Off Topic

Top tier moderating

I can't view spoiler images...was the image removed?

well the tone of the thread did change rather fast after it was moved to off topic, for the better. I wonder what the reason for that change is?

The thread changed from a flamewar between half the forum and Hybrid Son of Oxayotl to a circlejerk?

Nothing wrong with that, Sigvatr is rather skilled with his hands.

Compel that guy is clearly a misogynist.

 Compel wrote:
I've been debating whether to post this story or not. I'm not even sure of the point I'm trying to make with it, or how it's relevant or even my entire opinion on it but... Anyhow, my gut says it's related, somehow.

I was at a show to see a comedian (who will remain unnamed) recently. I'll be honest, I didn't particularly enjoy the show, or even find him funny.

But anyhow. He had a bit of a question / answer session with the audience at the end and this woman was practically dancing, waving her hands for her question. He finally picked her.

W: "So, in your act, you made all these comments about why someone being sexist is a really stupid thing to be. Why then do you make jokes about rape?"

C: *Stands, looking confused.* "I didn't make any rape jokes."

W: "Not tonight but." *Points* "You, always make rape jokes."

C: *Looks even more confused, doesn't say anything for several seconds.* "I can't even think of any rape jokes, can you tell examples of what ones I've said and we'll go from there."

W: *Flusters and stutters...* "Um, um, well, I don't know any, but you tell them all the time!" *Points*

C: "Well, uh... Sorry... I guess?" *Woman sits down*

He then moves on to another question, still appearing at least, rather confused.

But yeah, I don't really want to say too much more on that, but to be honest, it was the most interesting part of the show for me and I couldn't help but go away thinking about it.

Now, I do think this fits into this topic, but the way it fits in probably does depend greatly upon your point of view and, as I've said, I'm not entirely sure what my opinion of it is, especially considering I don't exactly follow the comedian (he could be playing dumb, for example).

Anyhow, some food for thought.

Without knowing who it is, there really isn't a way to verify it, honestly.

She could have just been easily offended by something, he could have just been playing dumb. Alternatively, he could have as you said been playing dumb.


Easiest way to affirm it would be to actually go through and watch his stuff.

It's also possible she intended to protest some other comic, and in a stupid moment, ended up at the wrong show.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and that isn't related to video gaming at all?

Only partially.

Only completely.

 illuknisaa wrote:



Also in how many games you can actually sexually assault something?

I guess you never played some of those Japanese eroge games

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and that isn't related to video gaming at all?

Only partially.

Only completely.

I don't agree games can be art, like journey, but most games are products to be sold (lice a car or vacuum cleaner) , they can be artful but that is not their main function if all games are art then everything is art.

The "can be sold" criteria isn't really useful as there also is art that's produced to be sold. The only reason art became that popular, after all, is because rich people wanted stuff

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:



Also in how many games you can actually sexually assault something?

I guess you never played some of those Japanese eroge games

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and that isn't related to video gaming at all?

Only partially.

Only completely.

I don't agree games can be art, like journey, but most games are products to be sold (lice a car or vacuum cleaner) , they can be artful but that is not their main function if all games are art then everything is art.

You do realize that there's a market for art right?
I'm pretty sure art collectors don't spend away thousands of dollars for fun.

 LordofHats wrote:
It's also possible she intended to protest some other comic, and in a stupid moment, ended up at the wrong show.

I could see that. I once mistook a homeless guy for Dane Cook. I think it was the rape jokes.

@Sigvatr and @CthuluIsSpy what i am trying to convey is that games primary function is to be well a game, and art-piece main function is to be art. That is why i say games can be art but not all games are art (because i have played some atrocious buggy, crappy games and calling those art would insult some artists).

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
@Sigvatr and @CthuluIsSpy what i am trying to convey is that games primary function is to be well a game, and art-piece main function is to be art. That is why i say games can be art but not all games are art (because i have played some atrocious buggy, crappy games and calling those art would insult some artists).

And you would say the same about books/movies/television shows/music/etc.?

 daedalus wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
It's also possible she intended to protest some other comic, and in a stupid moment, ended up at the wrong show.

I could see that. I once mistook a homeless guy for Dane Cook. I think it was the rape jokes.

To make a short story shorter, something similar happened at my college;

A group of Amish came to the school and spent about 4 hours in the middle of campus calling all the girls sluts for wearing short shorts in 100+ degree weather*. Needless to say, the entire student body kind of laughed at the whole ordeal cause it was ridiculous. Two weeks later, there was a seminar by some Amish as part of some local culture event we were having. Their little stand got picked by the local Women's Studies faculty and some students for being sexist, only this group of Amish had no idea what was going on because they were a completely different group of Amish who also though the other group of Amish was ridiculous for doing what they did.

Case and point, just because your an activist doesn't mean you don't do something embarrassingly stupid (like accusing the wrong Amish comic of being a douche).

*Honestly I wanted to wear short shorts too, but I just don't have the thighs

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
@Sigvatr and @CthuluIsSpy what i am trying to convey is that games primary function is to be well a game, and art-piece main function is to be art. That is why i say games can be art but not all games are art (because i have played some atrocious buggy, crappy games and calling those art would insult some artists).

Agreed. Some are specifically made to be art, but not all games are. Some are just meant to be fun. I think like everything else, it's objective, because not all books, films, and music are art, but some definitely are.