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2015/03/11 13:55:22
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
They can and they do, but given how much time Summers dedicates to attacking feminism at every point her claims to be a feminist become absurdly hollow. It is literally her career to argue with feminists about everything, from the basic premise of feminism to its goals.
Is Camille Paglia a true feminist? Are scottish people?
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2015/03/11 14:06:17
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
Such as Christina Sommers, who advocates equal legal rights for men and women?
Are you reading what I wrote? Everything I ever heard about or from her is that there are already equal rights or that men have it worse. So, she is not “trying to dismantle the gender inequalities that hurts women”. Address that.
How can you tell if you admittedly do not know what a feminist is?
So you don't do any research again, going purely on hear-say, you claim she's not a feminist?
others clearly think she is:
The National Women's Political Caucus (NWPC), a U.S. organization co-founded by feminist Gloria Steinem with a mission statement "dedicated to increasing women’s participation in the political process and creating a true women’s political power base to achieve equality for all women", awarded Sommers with a 2013 Exceptional Merit in Media Award[38] for her New York Times article, "The Boys at the Back".[39] The NWPC summarizes the article as, "Author Christina Sommers asks whether we should allow girls to reap the advantages of a new knowledge based service economy and take the mantle from boys, or should we acknowledge the roots of feminism and strive for equal education for all?"
Feminist is one of those wide ranging labels like gamer, or christian. As the dictionary shows "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" They all use the No True Scotsman fallacy as well. Like you just did with Summers.
Anyone who points out the lies feminists are claiming as fact gets labeled anti-feminists. It creates a culture of, agree with whatever nonsense a feminist claims to be true or we'll denounce you as the enemy. The fun part is, if there are true feminist, and criticizing them makes you an anti-feminist. Then it is logical to conclude that those who disagree with summers are anti-feminists. Summers is advocating for political equality of the sexes like a true feminist would, you're disagreeing with her, you're an anti-feminist.
It's exactly like what happened with gamer gate, people disagreed on the premise that video games causes sexism as no evidence was ever provided to support that idea. They got labeled anti-feminists because they disagreed with a "feminist". So we can see the reluctance of feminists to speak out against some of the nonsense coming out of their camp. Yet many feminists did speak out and helped form #notyourshield, they deserve many thanks.
2015/03/11 14:55:52
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
sirlynchmob wrote: So you don't do any research again, going purely on hear-say,
I wish you applied your own standard to yourself . Because, yeah, I did check that Wikipedia article you did not bother cutting the reference numbers off before posting about Sommers.
sirlynchmob wrote: you claim she's not a feminist?
others clearly think she is:
Oh my god, some people are disagreeing with me. Definite proof I am wrong!
The NWPC summarizes the article as, "Author Christina Sommers asks whether we should allow girls to reap the advantages of a new knowledge based service economy and take the mantle from boys, or should we acknowledge the roots of feminism and strive for equal education for all?"
In other word, “should women be privileged over men or should we be equal”. Her whole stick is that the statu quo is perfect and that we have achieved equality and that actually women are better off. Hence she is not “trying to dismantle the gender inequalities that hurts women”, only dismissing those inequalities as existent.
See, if you has read what I wrote and took some time to think about it, it would have been obvious why this was not going to show me she was a feminist.
sirlynchmob wrote: It creates a culture of, agree with whatever nonsense a feminist claims to be true or we'll denounce you as the enemy.
More precisely, it means “denounce whatever nonsense a feminist claim and all the people that agree with her/him will denounce you for calling it nonsense”. Oh gosh, people disagreeing. Color me shocked!
sirlynchmob wrote: It's exactly like what happened with gamer gate, people disagreed on the premise that video games causes sexism as no evidence was ever provided to support that idea.
Gamergate wall full of nonsense. Let me denounce it.
What GamerGate will tell you:
Spoiler:
So, let us just launch DotA2 and have a look at the heroes.
Spoiler:
Who could ever call that a “form-fitting costume that seems to have shrunken under the wash” when really, it is a “non-sexualized strong female character”. Thank you Gamergate for your based opinion .
As for Orogion, there is a quite interesting thread about his original artwork and rant on Steam:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/230230/discussions/0/617320628292995689/#c617320628358322648 And of course, there is what Orogion himself has written about the original art:
Secondly you are right about the key art that the male and female form are not represented equal on that image. There is no counter argument to that and I will admit that indeed there has been a bad judgement call on that part. Partially with me, partially with the marketing departement at Larian. Having done the reflection excersice more than once I do realise I made a big mistake on this part and I have only myself to blame for not seeing this issue when creating this image, as an artists it was my responsibility to say "guys, we're sending the wrong message with this image."
So that was a short overview of the kind of nonsense that Gamergate constantly brew. If you are baselessly attacking journalists for mentioning sexualization and it just takes launching a free game to find out your criticism was based on a lie, yeah, people are going to assume that this was not out of a genuine error .
sirlynchmob wrote: They got labeled anti-feminists because they disagreed with a "feminist".
You know, TERF do not get labeled as anti-feminists by outsiders, no more than trans-inclusionary feminists. They might sometime call each other anti-feminists occasionally (most of the time, they just call each other terrible persons, I guess ), but that is all. Why? Maybe because they are not dedicated to attack feminism, they just disagree with each other. That might be a good explanation.
sirlynchmob wrote: So we can see the reluctance of feminists to speak out against some of the nonsense coming out of their camp.
Again, they have no problem to speak out against what they see as nonsense. They just disagree with you on what is nonsense and what is just true.
Excuse-me, was Idi Amin Dada Scottish? Surely he was, because he claimed to be the last king of Scotland. If you dare say otherwise, you are making a true Scotsman's fallacy.
(It is sarcasm. This would not be a true Scotsman's fallacy, and Idi Amin Dada was not Scottish. Learn what the true Scotsman fallacy is.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 15:13:59
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/03/11 16:41:04
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").
The Scotsman is move of a moving the goal post fallacy and doesn't seem enter into this argument. This argument seems more about what makes a feminist or something.
2015/03/11 18:12:01
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
And I would like to provide a quite funny unexpected counter-example with My Little Pony : Friendship is Magic, which was targeted both at young girls and adults, mostly neckbeards .
MLP wasn't targeted at adults, it was explicitely targeted at young girls, even surprising the authors to a large extent.
Lauren Faust has said that MLP:FIM was designed from the point of view that it should be something that parents can watch with their kids and enjoy, rather than just endure. That's always been Lauren Faust's MO, hence why there has been a Big Lebowski bowling reference in both Fosters Home For Imaginary Friends and MLP, along with loads of other film references.
The size of the adult fanbase took them by surprise, not the fact that adults enjoyed it at all.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/03/11 18:40:59
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
Yeah, I remembered something like this. Thanks Malus. You are a very helpful town .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/03/11 19:36:40
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Are you reading what I wrote? Everything I ever heard about or from her is that there are already equal rights or that men have it worse. So, she is not “trying to dismantle the gender inequalities that hurts women”. Address that.
I'm reading everything you wrote, my friend. You've decided she is not a feminist, and that your definition of a feminist is someone who is 'trying to dismantle the gender inequalities that hurts women'
Considering she advocates completely equal legal rights for men and women, how is she not a feminist? Not to mention, the women and men who call themselves feminists, but do nothing to advance any cause just to say that they agree with feminist ideals, are they feminists? According to your definition, they are not. You'd better let them know!
How can you tell if you admittedly do not know what a feminist is?
If you she meets your definition of a feminist, as per above, how can you claim she isn't a feminist? I didn't make the claim she isn't a feminist. You did. You tried to exclude her, because you don't like her, which is fine, but be honest about it.
I think this sums up everything you need to know about gamer culture right now.
*ducks incoming fruit*.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2015/03/11 19:55:18
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
VorpalBunny74 wrote: Considering she advocates completely equal legal rights for men and women
Because that bolded word.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
liquidjoshi wrote: I think this sums up everything you need to know about gamer culture right now.
*ducks incoming fruit*.
Put a spoiler tag when posting videos that include spoilers!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 20:02:52
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/03/11 20:08:47
Subject: Re:Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
LordofHats wrote: Only if you completely miss the point of the fallacy, but then it's kind of a thing in OT to misapply logical fallacies so *shrug* I never once claimed "No feminist would Y." I claimed "X calling herself a feminist is meaningless because X doesn't agree with feminism." And it is blatantly obvious she doesn't agree with Feminism simply from the fact she wrote an entire book about how she disagreed with Feminism. I'm not even the one making the claim she disagrees. She did that all on her own.
You joked she's not a feminist, it was pointed out she considered herself an equity feminist, you said that's not true feminism in your opinion, invoking nihilism for some reason.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: You joked she's not a feminist, it was pointed out she considered herself an equity feminist, you said that's not true feminism in your opinion, invoking nihilism for some reason.
How isn't that a No True Scotsman?
In the exact same way that not considering Idi Amin Dada a Scottish is not a true scotsman fallacy. The true Scotsman fallacy is about saying “A true X will never do Y”, and setting enough of those rules that nobody is a true X. Here we are just saying that someone claiming to be something is not always something. For instance, Idi Amin Dada claims to be the last Scottish king, but he is not the last Scottish king. All of this has already been explained to you, and you failed to address it.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/03/11 21:28:40
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
Sorry, we'll be sure to call in the femistasi next time we see her going on tour.
Except, you know, Sarkeesian is not a misandrist in any way. I know 'Anita sucks xd' memeposting is fun to bandwagon all night long, but she has a few valid things to say and she matches the criteria for feminism as far as I know
Her 'business' practices, which I am sure will be complained on shortly, do not actually matter for that definition.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 21:38:39
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: In the exact same way that not considering Idi Amin Dada a Scottish is not a true scotsman fallacy. The true Scotsman fallacy is about saying “A true X will never do Y”, and setting enough of those rules that nobody is a true X. Here we are just saying that someone claiming to be something is not always something. For instance, Idi Amin Dada claims to be the last Scottish king, but he is not the last Scottish king. All of this has already been explained to you, and you failed to address it.
I'm happy to compromise and create a new fallacy called the No True Feminist, if you'd like.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: I'm happy to compromise and create a new fallacy called the No True Feminist, if you'd like.
I would rather you explained to me how saying Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy. Or how this is somehow different from Sommers calling herself a feminist. Maybe you will finally answer that. Thanks.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2015/03/11 21:35:08
Subject: Am I the only one tired of gaming culture?
VorpalBunny74 wrote: I'm happy to compromise and create a new fallacy called the No True Feminist, if you'd like.
I would rather you explained to me how saying Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy. Or how this is somehow different from Sommers calling herself a feminist. Maybe you will finally answer that. Thanks.
Sure, point out where I said Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy, and I'll address that.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: I'm happy to compromise and create a new fallacy called the No True Feminist, if you'd like.
I would rather you explained to me how saying Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy. Or how this is somehow different from Sommers calling herself a feminist. Maybe you will finally answer that. Thanks.
Sure, point out where I said Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy, and I'll address that.
I can wait.
Fine Sommers isn't a feminist and therefore she is a liar. In that being, Anita is also not a gamer and lied to everyone on that. We can also agree that Anita, Simmers, and Milo are also pretty shifty people that are generally playing us to get views revenue and attention and the delicious sensationalism that they all crave.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 21:41:38
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
StarTrotter wrote: Fine Sommers isn't a feminist and therefore she is a liar. In that being, Anita is also not a gamer and lied to everyone on that. We can also agree that Anita, Simmers, and Milo are also pretty shifty people that are generally playing us to get views revenue and attention and the delicious sensationalism that they all crave.
I agree with this.
Anita is a feminist, but that doesn't have to mean I agree with her business practices.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I would rather you explained to me how saying Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy. Or how this is somehow different from Sommers calling herself a feminist. Maybe you will finally answer that. Thanks.
Sure, point out where I said Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy, and I'll address that.
I can wait.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 21:52:01
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
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