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I've heard a number of ideas but reasoned this fine group of internerds would provide a vast repository of theories on the esoteric knowledge I seek.

Eternal? One of the shaman survived? A being created by the Emperor? The actual Cabal?

I'm open to ideas, folks.


***Assuming we have the capacity to entertain theories and fanciful notions outside the norm of "he a human with mad psyker skillz"

He was a psyker?

 Manchu wrote:
He was a psyker?

Nailed it.

But your theory is an absolutely average human being with above average abilities who's best friend is the most supreme being of mankind?

Dull, but feasible.

I think he was just a human. A Psyker, probably second to the Emperor, but just a human. I don't really think that's dull? It's impressive if anything, a really old man managing to basically run the Imperium while the Emperor is busy and Horus is traitor.

Emperor = human

That's actually really important.

 Manchu wrote:
Emperor = human

That's actually really important.

Elaborate, please =]

We don't really know much about the Emperor. I'm pretty sure he's the amalgamation of a bunch of shamans, which sounds more than human to me.

The Emperor is, yeah, a spiritual gestalt of every psyker who was on earth at the time of his creation. They all ritually suicided, mobbed up in the Warp and got themselves born into a new body.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Emperor is, yeah, a spiritual gestalt of every psyker who was on earth at the time of his creation. They all ritually suicided, mobbed up in the Warp and got themselves born into a new body.

Thanks, that's a very succinct explanation. So he's definitely more than human then. But Malcador is just a human, as far as I know?

Malcador the Sigilite? He's... just this guy, you know?

I don't know about all this gestalt shaman business, is that still the story? That's from Realms of Chaos right?

In any case, the Imperial Truth is that the Emperor is a human being. He is the best possible human being but human nonetheless.

Well the Imperial Truth is just that he's not a god, not that he's specifically human, afaik.

The Imperium is human supremacist. It would no sense for a nonhuman to lead it. As I mentioned to you earlier today, the human mandate to conquer the galaxy is derived from the Emperor's own person.

But he isn't human. Not really. He is, as Lorgar says, 'a god in all but name'.

Why must there be a distinction? Isn't that what Lorgar ultimately meant -- and indeed what drove him afterward to seek his own apotheosis? And tragically, this is the very lesson the Emperor tried to teach mankind before he was betrayed: that human destiny is divine in itself. The Emperor wanted for all humanity the glory and honor that the Ecclesiarchy myopically and ironically heap upon him as the God-Emperor.

From the Warhammer 40 wikia:

"During the conquest of Terra in the 30th Millennium, the Emperor gathered about him trusted lieutenants and gave them tasks and duties befitting men of status. Most of these servants were drawn from the ranks of the Terran nobility and the Space Marine Legions. Malcador was an exception, for he was not a warrior but a man of learning with the bearing of a priest. From the early years of the Wars of Unification he was ever-present at the Emperor's side. His origins were unknown to all save perhaps the Emperor Himself. He wore the hooded robes of a simple Terran administrator. Blessed with unnaturally long life there were many rumours about the true nature of this enigmatic figure. Some say he was a psyker, the first to have undergone the Soul-Binding ritual. Other rumours say that he was distantly related to the Emperor."
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malcador_the_Sigillite
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Soul-Binding

Not sure from what source that is exactly since there's a whole list but it that makes him sound like more than just a powerful human psyker. The Soul-binding thing would explain his closeness with the Emperor at least. Maybe the Emperor simply needed a powerful agent and sought out the most potent psyker, imbuing him with a part of his own psychic power.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Emperor is, yeah, a spiritual gestalt of every psyker who was on earth at the time of his creation. They all ritually suicided, mobbed up in the Warp and got themselves born into a new body.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know about all this gestalt shaman business, is that still the story? That's from Realms of Chaos right?

In any case, the Imperial Truth is that the Emperor is a human being. He is the best possible human being but human nonetheless.

The fluff is old but its certainly more intriguing than just making him Space Jesus. I hope they keep it if they ever update the fluff.

The whole 'Heavens Gate' shaman cult suicide thing I thought was pretty dumb. I tend to ignore it, and am more inclined nowadays to look at the Emperor as an antichrist

I would just find it fitting if the Emperor wasn't behind the more famous but rather, the more infamous, like: Nero, Various feudal kings, Stalin, Hitler. lol

kveldulf wrote:
The whole 'Heavens Gate' shaman cult suicide thing I thought was pretty dumb. I tend to ignore it, and am more inclined nowadays to look at the Emperor as an antichrist

I would just find it fitting if the Emperor wasn't behind the more famous but rather, the more infamous, like: Nero, Various feudal kings, Stalin, Hitler. lol

That would hardly make any sense in the 40k context. The Emperor is devoted to fighting Chaos. Why would he even bother with villains on that level? Plus it would be pretty dumb. The psyker coalescing thing is much more compelling imo.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
From the Warhammer 40 wikia:

"During the conquest of Terra in the 30th Millennium, the Emperor gathered about him trusted lieutenants and gave them tasks and duties befitting men of status. Most of these servants were drawn from the ranks of the Terran nobility and the Space Marine Legions. Malcador was an exception, for he was not a warrior but a man of learning with the bearing of a priest. From the early years of the Wars of Unification he was ever-present at the Emperor's side. His origins were unknown to all save perhaps the Emperor Himself. He wore the hooded robes of a simple Terran administrator. Blessed with unnaturally long life there were many rumours about the true nature of this enigmatic figure. Some say he was a psyker, the first to have undergone the Soul-Binding ritual. Other rumours say that he was distantly related to the Emperor."
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malcador_the_Sigillite
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Soul-Binding

Not sure from what source that is exactly since there's a whole list but it that makes him sound like more than just a powerful human psyker. The Soul-binding thing would explain his closeness with the Emperor at least. Maybe the Emperor simply needed a powerful agent and sought out the most potent psyker, imbuing him with a part of his own psychic power.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Emperor is, yeah, a spiritual gestalt of every psyker who was on earth at the time of his creation. They all ritually suicided, mobbed up in the Warp and got themselves born into a new body.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know about all this gestalt shaman business, is that still the story? That's from Realms of Chaos right?

In any case, the Imperial Truth is that the Emperor is a human being. He is the best possible human being but human nonetheless.

The fluff is old but its certainly more intriguing than just making him Space Jesus. I hope they keep it if they ever update the fluff.

This is the sort of discussion I was looking forward to. It's recognized by even the Primarchs that Malcador is above the average human in more than title and power. I'm just wanting to expound and explore what options would be available to a being such as that.

I'd always thought that Malcador was a Sensei, but the Soul-Bound Psyker works too. Makes sense, even.

A benevolent warp being in a human body?

Is it ever explicitly noted that everything in the warp is evil and corrupt? Although its emotion manifest, surely there must be some "good" emotions in there?

 Shidank wrote:

But your theory is an absolutely average human being with above average abilities who's best friend is the most supreme being of mankind?

Dull, but feasible.

I find it much more dull that everyone who is anyway important needs to be some sort of superspecial übermensch. (I'm still livid about what Black Library did to Ollanius Pius.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

But your theory is an absolutely average human being with above average abilities who's best friend is the most supreme being of mankind?

Dull, but feasible.

I find it much more dull that everyone who is anyway important needs to be some sort of superspecial übermensch. (I'm still livid about what Black Library did to Ollanius Pius.)

That can be an overrun cliche, but not necessarily in the bounds of science fiction. We have a plethora of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Since everything in 40k is carbon copied from what came before, I like unique characters that come in the form of the Primarchs, the Emperor, and even a normal Malcador. I like the idea that on occasion, GW can push something out that is unique and that we won't see again and again in the fluff until the worth is so watered down, we need a gold-filigreed collection to come out to renew our interest.

The idea of Malcador being something more is a romantic idea that empowers and adds depth to the character. While I agree that this process itself can be overdone and flatten any worthwhile character, the mystery of Malcador provides a myriad of possibilities we can forever entertain.

To me, writing him off as simply Malcador the Man isn't giving the character all your due respect. We build legends around that which inspires intrigue, but if we dismiss Malcador(most mysterious of them all) as this one thing and nothing more, we're letting our imagination sink in a world where we can fly.


***
In regards to Pious, I found it to be in poor taste to shred the lore of an established David character. Shame on BL indeed.

I think the opposite, I think writing him as more than a man gives him less respect, where as with everything that he did, while being JUST a man, would make me respect him more than if he was some kind of uber special... Thing.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think the opposite, I think writing him as more than a man gives him less respect, where as with everything that he did, while being JUST a man, would make me respect him more than if he was some kind of uber special... Thing.

OH, I follow now. You misunderstood. We're not asking for fluff that defines him as more. We're entertaining the notion of him BEING more.

 Shidank wrote:
To me, writing him off as simply Malcador the Man isn't giving the character all your due respect.

If anything, what makes him extraordinary is that a mere man managed to rise to such a level of influence in the presence of so many superhumans. Malcador was de-factor Emperor during the time the Big E was working on the webway project, and was more powerful than most of the Primarchs (maybe more powerful than any of them, even Horus).

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
To me, writing him off as simply Malcador the Man isn't giving the character all your due respect.

If anything, what makes him extraordinary is that a mere man managed to rise to such a level of influence in the presence of so many superhumans. Malcador was de-factor Emperor during the time the Big E was working on the webway project, and was more powerful than most of the Primarchs (maybe more powerful than any of them, even Horus).

I feel as if we're on the same page and it's just not being seen. You just said he was more powerful than demigods. That would make him, by definition, more than a mere man.

Since you already acknowledge him as such, what's so threatening to the image to entertain the notion of something more to him?

I'm a fan of Malcador being just a man (albeit a very gifted one) rather than anything "more." To me, it makes more sense than the alternative. The Emperor is, honestly, so above and removed from the rest of humanity. His entire existence is spent on the future of mankind, and fighting xenos and Chaos and what-not. He's making plans that span generations into the future. He's constantly devoting part of himself to the Astronomican. I'd imagine all of that could be a bit distracting.

Malcador is his anchor to humanity. Malcador is the reminder for the Emperor of the people that he leads. I would think that spending your daily life surrounded by Primarchs, Astartes, Custodes, Magos, and so many other meta/super humans could drastically skew your view of humanity. By having his closest confidant and adviser - the second in command of the entire Imperium - be just a "mere," regular human, it reminds the Emperor of the other 99.999% of the Imperium. It reminds us all to whom this galaxy truly belongs.

Make Malcador another meta/super human, and suddenly all of humanity is answering to the gods, rather than working beside them. And that is a very important distinction.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter, hoping to add to the discussion. Enjoy.

kveldulf wrote:
The whole 'Heavens Gate' shaman cult suicide thing I thought was pretty dumb. I tend to ignore it, and am more inclined nowadays to look at the Emperor as an antichrist

I would just find it fitting if the Emperor wasn't behind the more famous but rather, the more infamous, like: Nero, Various feudal kings, Stalin, Hitler. lol

except....... why? other then "the emperor is evil! these men where evil! LOL maybe the Emperor was them!" I'm just not tracking. thats pretty poor logic, because good and evil are simple moral declerations.

I think pegging the emperor as anyone in history is gonna be impossiable unless GW says it. Particularly because we don't know his plan, I mean.... as early as the Iron age he was planning the foundations of the Mechanium apparently.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
A benevolent warp being in a human body?

Is it ever explicitly noted that everything in the warp is evil and corrupt? Although its emotion manifest, surely there must be some "good" emotions in there?

The Warp is a mirror of ALL of the emotions on real space. Unfortunately, 60 mil years ago, the evil emotions gained sentience and went into real space and started sowing Chaos. Now, all of the positive or "good" emotions are like specks in a snow storm. Although, it is notable that the Eldar Pantheon (Order) were able to combat Chaos for 60 Mil years, until their followers turned to Chaos Pleasure Cults (which severely weakened them) and Slaanesh was born (who still couldn't consume Khaine despite consuming trillions of Eldar souls). The Eldar Pantheon likely had many positive emotions represented, like mirth (see: the Laughing God), or honor (see: Khaine), though it is arguable that the Chaos Gods can be seen to represent positive emotions (ludicrous as it sounds).