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 j31c3n wrote:

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

All of them also have statements or showings of military brilliance.

Manus does not, nor was he flying rodent gak out of his mind at the time like Dorn or Curze (who isn't a loyalist Primarch by the way, nor are Horus and Alpharius) were (though this statement is somewhat dishonest, because Dorn has always been flying rodent gak out of his mind).

If we're counting traitor Primarchs then Angron is the worst general, and it's not close.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, I'd say Ferrus was definitely a pretty bad general, if only by the standards of his brothers.

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

Dorn and Alpharius are only MIA. We don't know if they're actually dead.

Considering Dorn was exploded and only his hand survived... I'd say it's pretty safe to call him officially deceased.

As for Alpharius, he was killed by Guilliman. I'm as big of a fanboy of the new Alpha Legion fluff as can exist, but let's face it. He's dead.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

All of them also have statements or showings of military brilliance.

Manus does not, nor was he flying rodent gak out of his mind at the time like Dorn or Curze (who isn't a loyalist Primarch by the way, nor are Horus and Alpharius) were (though this statement is somewhat dishonest, because Dorn has always been flying rodent gak out of his mind).

How were Ferrus Manus and Dorn "out of their minds"? Show your work.

 j31c3n wrote:


How were Ferrus Manus and Dorn "out of their minds"? Show your work.

I didn't say Manus was out of his mind. Reading comprehension.

Dorn, however, is a raging psychopath who sends his Legion into obvious traps for a suicidal charge and locks his Librarians in a basement for decades. All while inflicting self-harm. He's the biggest fruit loop of all the Primarchs.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:


How were Ferrus Manus and Dorn "out of their minds"? Show your work.

I didn't say Manus was out of his mind. Reading comprehension.

Dorn, however, is a raging psychopath who sends his Legion into obvious traps for a suicidal charge and locks his Librarians in a basement for decades. All while inflicting self-harm. He's the biggest fruit loop of all the Primarchs.

That's ... really not Dorn at all. You're ignoring the larger picture of the character to focus on a few moments of his story. You're being deliberately disingenuous to make a point. Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Russ, and Sanguinius were referred to by Guilliman as "the dauntless few" - the four Primarchs who most exemplified the design of the Emperor. If Guilliman thought well of a guy, chances are that guy wasn't "out of his mind."

And besides, if Ferrus Manus wasn't "out of his mind" for charging after Fulgrim, then neither was Dorn for charging after Perturabo. Logical consistency.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not, and one story of them doing something like that doesn't suddenly make them above everyone else. Sounds pretty badly written if they took zero casualties and one AL guy took out a whole chapter.

Under Alpharius, they also took an entire planet and only lose a handful of Astartes in the process, compared to the typical losses of the Ultramarines or Dark Angels. When the Alpha Legion acts competently, they are memetic in their abilities. There's no equal to them in the other Legions- not even the Raven Guard Shadowalking is comparable. They Hydras are effectively the Batman of the Legions, not the Night Lords.

every world has taken worlds with no loses, where Alpharius may have done so with trickery. chances are other Primarchs (Gulliman, Sanguinus and Horus seem likely to be particularly good at this) likely brought in worlds through diplomacy that other Primarchs would have had to fight to bring in

 j31c3n wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, I'd say Ferrus was definitely a pretty bad general, if only by the standards of his brothers.

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

Dorn and Alpharius are only MIA. We don't know if they're actually dead.

Considering Dorn was exploded and only his hand survived... I'd say it's pretty safe to call him officially deceased.

As for Alpharius, he was killed by Guilliman. I'm as big of a fanboy of the new Alpha Legion fluff as can exist, but let's face it. He's dead.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

All of them also have statements or showings of military brilliance.

Manus does not, nor was he flying rodent gak out of his mind at the time like Dorn or Curze (who isn't a loyalist Primarch by the way, nor are Horus and Alpharius) were (though this statement is somewhat dishonest, because Dorn has always been flying rodent gak out of his mind).

How were Ferrus Manus and Dorn "out of their minds"? Show your work.

We have no reason to believe that Dorn "exploded". Only his hand was recovered, his body or his armor was never found, and in all likelihood he ended up in the warp. The Ultramarines they themselves meanwhile don't even believe they killed Alpharius.

For some reason, I thought the Chaos ship he boarded exploded at the end of the battle. What happened to it? Did they get away? If so, then I suppose Dorn being alive is about as plausible as Khan still smashing heads in the Webway or any of the other "missing primarch" stories.

Still though. Ferrus Manus wasn't the "worst general." None of the Primarchs were. The only plausible contender for that title is Angron, and I don't think he deserves it, Nails and all.

Well, the obvious answer would seem to be Dorn since he was so useless that the Emperor took him off the line and gave him the "important job" of supervising building a fort.

But there's always Russ who never saw an enemy he didn't want to charge right into.


Of course, the poll was missing the correct answer, Lorgar. But that wouldn't really be an interesting poll. There would be two options: A: Lorgar, B: I've never read any 40K fluff.

Dorn was one of the "dauntless few" though, praised by Guilliman. Just because he excelled at siegecraft doesn't necessarily mean that he suffered elsewhere.

And Lorgar was man enough to stand against Guilliman for an extended period of time at Calth. The Word Bearers didn't fold easily because Lorgar wasn't a bad general.

I was mostly joking about Dorn.

And Lorgar wasn't at Calth. Only a hologram of him was. But either way, Calth was a ridiculous loss for the Word Bearers. They had total surprise and still managed to lose horribly. If that doesn't demonstrate just how expendable and incompetent the Word Bearers were, I don't know what would.

Seriously, the most logical explanation was that Horus sent the Word Bearers to Calth because they were his least valuable troops. He knew that whomever he sent was likely to be destroyed, and well, if you're going to sacrifice somebody, it might as well be the Word Bearers. The Alpha Legion or the World Eaters might bork it up (though for different reasons). The Word Bearers could be trusted to stick to the plan and die like good little pawns.

I have not read the HH books so forgive me if I am wrong about this.

I recall learning that the point of Calth was manyfold. Many elements of the Word Bearers were deliberately sacrificed to "purge" the legion of the Marines that were less than devoted to the Ruinous Powers and more interested in petty revenge. Guilliman was intended to survive the attack, which despite ultimately failing, would cause him to worry that Terra had fallen, and therefore retreat to Macragge and call his forces there to create Secundus.

Lastly, the Word Bearers were outnumbered something like four-or-five-to-one, and still managed to give a good fight.

They achieved total space superiority within minutes, and killed a good 40% of the assembled loyalist forces (Army and Marines) before the fighting even started, and an even larger percentage of the war material which had been pre-loaded.

It's important to understand that Lorgar is an extremely unrelaible source, even in describing his own motivations. He's wildly envious, and desperately craves validation. Which is why he fell to Chaos in the first place, and why he's been writing a book nobody will ever read for the last 10,000 years. It took him halfway through Betrayer to figure out that Guilliman didn't despise him or pity him, and just destroyed Monarchia because that was what he was told to do.

So when Lorgar talks about his reasons for doing things, it's important to take it with a grain of salt. Lorgar likes to feel enlightened, because being enlightened was the only thing he thought he was better at than his brothers. The reality is probably that Horus said "Pick half your guys and send them to Calth to ambush the Ultramarines" and so he did. If Lorgar "purged" his legion, it was out of his own self-indulgence. Not because they actually needed to be purged.

Read the way Magnus talks to Lorgar as if he was an idiot child. Lorgar is the kid who thinks he's super clever, but in reality, he was weak-willed and gullible, which is why he fell first. Heck, the Fateweaver says right to his face "I'm totally going to lie to you half the time" and Lorgar still believes everything he tells him.

Well, all that said, I still don't think Lorgar is worthy of the title "worst Primarch general."

Just because he's envious and gullible and was the first to fall doesn't necessarily make him stupid. An envious and gullible person can still be cunning, and indeed would have to be, to kickstart an event as grand in scale as the Horus Heresy.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They achieved total space superiority within minutes, and killed a good 40% of the assembled loyalist forces (Army and Marines) before the fighting even started, and an even larger percentage of the war material which had been pre-loaded.

By "they" are you referring to the Word Bearers or the Ultramarines? Because if it's the former... that sounds like good generalling to me.

Well, to be fair, in his big long "Woe is me" speech, Lorgar also admits he was the worst general in TFH, and bemoans how the Emperor won't let him be a philosopher or priest instead.

I mean, Lorgar was probably not a complete schlub. But compared to the other Primarchs he wasn't very good at warfighting. Which makes it doubly funny that he teams up with the World Eaters. It's like the blind leading the blind.

The Word Bearers didn't achieve superiority by generalship, they achieved it by treachery. Pretty easy to destroy a fleet at anchor that isn't expecting you to open fire on them. If I invite you to the movies and stab you in the neck as soon as the house lights go out, that doesn't make me a good fighter.

tgjensen wrote:
That is not necessarily a fluff contradiction. The Ultramarines conquered more worlds, while the Dark Angels had more victories. Not every battle is a world conquest.

Oh, and that quote can be found in the 2nd edition Codex:Ultramarines, I believe. So not written by Ward.

Fair enough, I hadn't considered that.

 j31c3n wrote:
Depends on how you're defining "good general," honestly. The Primarchs were engineered to be the perfect generals, and they were. The problem is, they're people too, and people have weaknesses.

-snip-

That's a pretty good assessment!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They achieved total space superiority within minutes, and killed a good 40% of the assembled loyalist forces (Army and Marines) before the fighting even started, and an even larger percentage of the war material which had been pre-loaded.

That doesn't reflect badly on the Word Bearers considering how much larger the Ultramarines were as a legion. Its impressive that they could inflict casualties on that scale and it would have evened the odds. Plus the Ultramarines were in a much better position to recover from the attacks and reinforce.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, to be fair, in his big long "Woe is me" speech, Lorgar also admits he was the worst general in TFH, and bemoans how the Emperor won't let him be a philosopher or priest instead.

True, but remember, Lorgar is an extremely unreliable narrator and he has that whole religious guilt/shame thing going on in absolute spades.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Word Bearers didn't achieve superiority by generalship, they achieved it by treachery. Pretty easy to destroy a fleet at anchor that isn't expecting you to open fire on them. If I invite you to the movies and stab you in the neck as soon as the house lights go out, that doesn't make me a good fighter.

Doesn't make it an invalid strategy, though. He's a treacherous snake, but a successful one.

I like to compare the Primarchs to the Greek gods, the Greek gods where.... exaggerations. everything about them was larger then life, INCLUDEING their flaws.

tgjensen wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Does unremarkable translate into bad?

Vulkan: Unremarkable
Corax: better at small engagements
Angron: Reckless
Curze: no plan or control

Honestly, it seems like Vulkan comes out on top given those 4.

No, it doesn't. They were all great generals. Some of them were undeniably greater than others, however, which is why I went by the one that, as far as I'm aware of, has the least greatest reputation. Corax and the Khan at least have trademark styles of warfare that they are supposedly masters of.
Another unremarkable Primarch is Sanguinius, actually. He's very charismatic and a great fighter, and gets lots of attention on those accounts, but I've never heard any praise of him as a general. Not like Guilliman, Dorn and the Lion.

And Angron and Curze are obviously irrelevant, since we are only discussing the loyalists.

Read Fear to Tread and you will see Sanguinius's genius in action. Right at the beginning, in the prologue

Regarding Sanguinius... if Warmaster Horus says Sanguinius ought to have been Warmaster instead of him... I think that means Sanguinius is pretty frickin' baller.

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly I think the Alpha legion fans tend to over state their trickyness. they certinly pull lots of fast ones but but honestly the "everything is a AL trick" gets kinda silly at times. especially in a serious discussion. right now all we have is whats presented to us, the AL tried planning for RGs conventional tactics. and RG adapted. but then I've always viewed the codex as being more orginizational and some tatical guidelines then a "paint by numbers" stragety guide.

I'm a huge alpha legion fan and the 'it's all an AL plot!' Gets old quick, both from the actual authors and from people speculating. They're tricky and very good at what they do but they're not infallible.

MozzyFuzzy, I don't think he would have needed to see Alpharius (although I'm sure they've probably all seen eachother informally at some point or another), in the original story for how Alph was found, he boarded Horus' ship and fought his way to the bridge, and when he got there they both knew they were brothers. I imagine Guilliman can tell the difference between a Primarch and a normal marine from things like their fighting skills and just the sheer awe factor a Primarch has, even Alpharius to a lesser degree. And they might even have a kind of sense for each other due to their creation.

Horus was a Psyker Primarch, though, while Guilliman was not. Not all of the Primarchs were Psykers, but most of them were (Russ, Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Magnus, etc.). And that whole "sheer force of presence" thing is physical personality (which only shows when helmet is off).

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly I think the Alpha legion fans tend to over state their trickyness. they certinly pull lots of fast ones but but honestly the "everything is a AL trick" gets kinda silly at times. especially in a serious discussion. right now all we have is whats presented to us, the AL tried planning for RGs conventional tactics. and RG adapted. but then I've always viewed the codex as being more orginizational and some tatical guidelines then a "paint by numbers" stragety guide.

I'm a huge alpha legion fan and the 'it's all an AL plot!' Gets old quick, both from the actual authors and from people speculating. They're tricky and very good at what they do but they're not infallible.

MozzyFuzzy, I don't think he would have needed to see Alpharius (although I'm sure they've probably all seen eachother informally at some point or another), in the original story for how Alph was found, he boarded Horus' ship and fought his way to the bridge, and when he got there they both knew they were brothers. I imagine Guilliman can tell the difference between a Primarch and a normal marine from things like their fighting skills and just the sheer awe factor a Primarch has, even Alpharius to a lesser degree. And they might even have a kind of sense for each other due to their creation.

Horus was a Psyker Primarch, though, while Guilliman was not. Not all of the Primarchs were Psykers, but most of them were (Russ, Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Magnus, etc.). And that whole "sheer force of presence" thing is physical personality (which only shows when helmet is off).

It's been suggested by the Khan that all Primarchs have psykic potential, most just never really tap it. (something I'm inclined to suspect has some truth to it) as for Horus being and outright Psyker, there's no real evidance of it other then the stories of the battle of terra. where it's notable he was "jumped up by the dark gods" thus he may have effectivly been granted psykic powers by chaos.

 dusara217 wrote:
And that whole "sheer force of presence" thing is physical personality (which only shows when helmet is off).

This is very untrue. Check out movies like Batman, Judge Dredd (the new one), Robocop, and V for Vendetta. The protagonists of these films have huge personality despite their face being obscured for nearly the entire film. Personality isn't shown just through the face, it's also body language, stance, gait, fighting ability, etc.

BrianDavion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly I think the Alpha legion fans tend to over state their trickyness. they certinly pull lots of fast ones but but honestly the "everything is a AL trick" gets kinda silly at times. especially in a serious discussion. right now all we have is whats presented to us, the AL tried planning for RGs conventional tactics. and RG adapted. but then I've always viewed the codex as being more orginizational and some tatical guidelines then a "paint by numbers" stragety guide.

I'm a huge alpha legion fan and the 'it's all an AL plot!' Gets old quick, both from the actual authors and from people speculating. They're tricky and very good at what they do but they're not infallible.

MozzyFuzzy, I don't think he would have needed to see Alpharius (although I'm sure they've probably all seen eachother informally at some point or another), in the original story for how Alph was found, he boarded Horus' ship and fought his way to the bridge, and when he got there they both knew they were brothers. I imagine Guilliman can tell the difference between a Primarch and a normal marine from things like their fighting skills and just the sheer awe factor a Primarch has, even Alpharius to a lesser degree. And they might even have a kind of sense for each other due to their creation.

Horus was a Psyker Primarch, though, while Guilliman was not. Not all of the Primarchs were Psykers, but most of them were (Russ, Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Magnus, etc.). And that whole "sheer force of presence" thing is physical personality (which only shows when helmet is off).

It's been suggested by the Khan that all Primarchs have psykic potential, most just never really tap it. (something I'm inclined to suspect has some truth to it) as for Horus being and outright Psyker, there's no real evidance of it other then the stories of the battle of terra. where it's notable he was "jumped up by the dark gods" thus he may have effectivly been granted psykic powers by chaos.

Psychic powers are a genetic mutation. You're either born with them, or you're not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
And that whole "sheer force of presence" thing is physical personality (which only shows when helmet is off).

This is very untrue. Check out movies like Batman, Judge Dredd (the new one), Robocop, and V for Vendetta. The protagonists of these films have huge personality despite their face being obscured for nearly the entire film. Personality isn't shown just through the face, it's also body language, stance, gait, fighting ability, etc.

Stance and body language were literally studied by the Alpha Legionaries in order to ensure best possible reproduction of the Primarchs, as were gait, fighting style, etc. As far as fighting ability, every commander in 40k is head and shoulders above his subordinates in melee combat for no logical reason whatsoever, so Alpharius's stunt doubles would work just fine, as just about all of them were pretty high ranking so as to be able to actually make decisions should the need arise.

The Primarch's 'force of personality' thing is also in their voice. Lion amplifies it with his librarians, but he's still able to project it through a comms system.

I don't think 'worst' really comes into it. In all reality, a Legion vs Legion fight is going to come down to who's more pissed, because he's gonna be more inclined to fight harder and think outside the box.

Psychic powers are a genetic mutation. You're either born with them, or you're not.

Yeah except as I said it's been theorized ALL Primarchs where born with it. and even if not, I'm sorry but I REALLY don't think it's outside the realm of the possiable for a buncha people capable of having limbs spontaniously become tentacles to turn someone into a psyker. so far we have not seen ANY sign of Psykic ability from Horus.

BrianDavion wrote:

Psychic powers are a genetic mutation. You're either born with them, or you're not.

Yeah except as I said it's been theorized ALL Primarchs where born with it. and even if not, I'm sorry but I REALLY don't think it's outside the realm of the possiable for a buncha people capable of having limbs spontaniously become tentacles to turn someone into a psyker. so far we have not seen ANY sign of Psykic ability from Horus.

That is true, but we didn't see any out of Fulgrim unitl he went talkin' to some Daemons and got them to teach him how to use 'em.

Roboute Guilliman (A.K.A.: Rowboat Girlyman, Rawbutt Jellyman, Rampant Gullytan, Robot Gulliver, Robot Gorillaman, Robert Gullible, Big BobbyG, Papa Ultra Smurf)

His tactics appear full of arrogance and a lack of flexibility, as long as the Ultramarines didn't have the "Emperor's Blessing" for a moment.

The thing that sets him out as one of the weaker ones out of that list is due to the fact he wrote the codex astartes every single trick he has come up with is written down and likely accessible. Being able to see what he's doing then checking it up in detail makes it easier to counter and predict him. Also while the others have specialities and excel with them, he has sort of stuck into a bland all around type which while good for when you get completely countered by the opposition also leaves him not being so great in any of those; a jack of all trades. What he does excel in, and does so well, is the political side of things.

Basically his strategies are broad, this is both a strength and a weakness.

It would be hilarious if like, Rule 1008 of the Codex Astartes was "don't follow standardized battle doctrines as they make you too predictable" or something.

Like, "The Codex Astartes does not support this Codex Astartes, brother-captain!"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It would be hilarious if like, Rule 1008 of the Codex Astartes was "don't follow standardized battle doctrines as they make you too predictable" or something.

Like, "The Codex Astartes does not support this Codex Astartes, brother-captain!"

I suspect there IS a line along those lines. people keep thinking the codex astartes is some sort of inflexable paint by numbers guide to fighting. it's not. that kind of book is frankly impossiable. the codex Astartes likely mostly focuses on orginization and logistics. it tells you how to set up your unit structure, how to ensure you have sufficant supplies for the fight, how to perpare for certin possiabilites etc. and yes it proably has many MANY examples, But I seriously doubt it says "you must do THIS at such and such a time" (as I said if the codex was that inflexable the Ultramarines would be dead. the Tyranids would have killed them)

it likely does have some stuff like "fast attack units are most useful if used to flank the enemy, such as in the battle of such and such, I held the enemies eyes with my tatic squads, while I moved up the sides and flanked them with bike mounted troops"

It's proably basicly "Space SunTzu's art of war"

BrianDavion wrote:
It's proably basicly "Space SunTzu's art of war"

That's pretty much exactly what it is.