Dash2021 wrote:
Now, the rules didn't address FMCs, or WS's. But what do you want to have happen here? With one, GW made a bad codex. Instead of trying to spend the time and fix it with reasonable updates, they just said "Here ya go, spam the one good unit and be happy". In the other, they just made a core unit ridiculously good for the points. FLG's rules set is designed to help normalize a game that GW has obviously no interest in balancing, in order to make a competitive format possible. Is it really their fault that GW has no idea how much better a Toughness/Wounds value is than an equivalent AV? Or that snap-firing isn't that much of a deterrent when you can twinlink all your weapons anyway?

tag8833 wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:
Now, the rules didn't address FMCs, or WS's. But what do you want to have happen here? With one, GW made a bad codex. Instead of trying to spend the time and fix it with reasonable updates, they just said "Here ya go, spam the one good unit and be happy". In the other, they just made a core unit ridiculously good for the points. FLG's rules set is designed to help normalize a game that GW has obviously no interest in balancing, in order to make a competitive format possible. Is it really their fault that GW has no idea how much better a Toughness/Wounds value is than an equivalent AV? Or that snap-firing isn't that much of a deterrent when you can twinlink all your weapons anyway?

I don't think fixing either of those is difficult in the slightest. If you don't allow people to take a Leviathan Detachment alongside a CAD, you don't have the FMC problem we saw. Also this is basic common sense, the idea that 2 CAD is bad, but Leviathan + CAD is good is silly.

Wave Serpents are slightly more challenging because of their Dedicated transport role. The way I plan to handle this at my events is with shifting the Maelstrom to primary, and altering the objective placement rules such that all Maelstrom objectives are placed in No-Man's-Land. If Serpents are forced to move off the board edge before turn 5, they lose some of their power.

Another simple solution to wave serpents would remove the ability of Scatter Lasers to Twin Link the Serpent Shield. This Nerf is less radical than the nerf to Tyrannocyte shooting, and basically no one objected to that. There are dozens, and dozens of potential fixes that would balance them, and FLG has shown they are up to the task of directly altering rules in favor of more fun and balanced games.

I'm excited about the exit polling, because I feel like in early 7th FLG was on the cutting edge of mission design, and game balance, but they haven't felt empowered enough to maintain that edge, and I hope that a solid dataset from the exit poll will make them more comfortable moving forward in a meaningful and productive way that the entire 40k community will benefit from.

 Dash2021 wrote:
DarkLink pretty well hit it on the head. It's really nothing to do with "is it OTT, game breaking and absolute win button". . The question really is, is it fun to play against a unit you can quite literally shoot your entire army at every turn of the game and not kill? 2++ and FMC (specifically Flyrant) spam isn't any different. The inclusion of more powerful LOW (Lynx) was a direct result of attempting to address things like AdLance. Turns out they traded one monster for another, but I'm going to guess Lynx won't be asked back to play next year either. As I stated before, the FLG guys are out to make a living and making the game both competitive and fun is the best way for them to drive people through the doors.

Also, I do think you are being a little disingenuous with the assumption that since Invis stars aren't winning every single GT that it's not that powerful. Firstly, the top table certainly did have an invis star on it. Secondly, if you look at Invis star's representation at events I think you'll find it to be an extremely common list theme. As a side note, Seer Council is still very doable under the ITC format which allows self allying, and yet it wasn't a player this year.

But, again, I think the more important point is whether it's interesting to play against. There were 240 people at that event that didn't make it to the 3rd day, FLG has a much larger burden of responsibility to them than to the 8 or so guys who would have showed up and played regardless of whatever rule set they set forth. They are the ones who voted to nerf invis,, and from all accounts very few that were present regretted that decision. If the rule for the tourney was that on day 3 you had to wear hot pink tube tops, a thong, and crocs the guys at the top tables would have still showed up, and used the thong rule to their advantage as much as it was possible. The rest spend a lot of money to show up and have fun, knowing they're as likely to win the lottery as actually make it to day 3. All they ask is to have fun, and clearly those people don't think shooting your entire army at a squad and doing one wound is fun. Playing against Flyrant spam isn't either, so I expect some effort to curb that next year as well. And I'm sure it'll open some exploitable loop hole that'll subsequently have to be quashed, but every change is an experiment and some experiments fail. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Tsilber wrote:
They fixed serpents, and allowed the shield to be considered a weapon i believe.

In either case, the argument of "this is broken", "this needs to be fixed", "this needs a nerf" ....Has little merit.

The Tourney heard what the people liked and set house rules and FAQ's. People were made aware of this, and yet 200+ people still showed up to play.

The diversity of the top list, that hold very little "powerful internet" builds in them,, or the typical cookie cutter builds shows any army, played by good players can win or do a good showing.

Enough of this is overpowered or this is broken... Let it go. Every Army has the ability to counter anything else.

 RobPro wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
They fixed serpents, and allowed the shield to be considered a weapon i believe.

In either case, the argument of "this is broken", "this needs to be fixed", "this needs a nerf" ....Has little merit.

The Tourney heard what the people liked and set house rules and FAQ's. People were made aware of this, and yet 200+ people still showed up to play.

The diversity of the top list, that hold very little "powerful internet" builds in them,, or the typical cookie cutter builds shows any army, played by good players can win or do a good showing.

Enough of this is overpowered or this is broken... Let it go. Every Army has the ability to counter anything else.

Shh! You're not supposed to let everybody know that every army can counter everything else!

The top 8 lists looked like they were very well attuned to the missions for this event and the terrain, which I think contributed a huge amount to where they placed (right after the skill level of their pilots).

I would like to see everything under 1850 that lets you stay battle forged allowed next year, a 900 or 1450 point titan won't help you with maelstrom.

 Blackmoor wrote:


The Sceamerstar died way earlier. The fact that it does not have hit and run means that it was a gimmick list that had a lifespan of a few months.

 Blackmoor wrote:


The fact that Seer Council won last year, and they have not been a factor at any other major GT that does not even have the nerfed 2++ after 7th edition dropped seems to be evidence enough. You cannot build an army around unreliable psychic powers. Do you know what you can build an army around? FMC and Wave Serpents.

CaptainA wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:


The Sceamerstar died way earlier. The fact that it does not have hit and run means that it was a gimmick list that had a lifespan of a few months.

Nick Nanavanti was running two mini screamerstars in his list.

TSMango wrote:
So has anyone gotten a hold of Brandon Grant's Dark Angel list that took 12th this year?

 punchdub wrote:

CaptainA wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:


The Sceamerstar died way earlier. The fact that it does not have hit and run means that it was a gimmick list that had a lifespan of a few months.

Nick Nanavanti was running two mini screamerstars in his list.

8 screamers and a Tzherald does not, a mini-screamerstar make. That's like saying 8 scouts and Sgt. Telion is a mini Scoutstar. He was, however, effectively using 2 squads of screamers with heralds to harass enemies and score objectives.

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

Budzerker wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

Which is one of the most ridiculous rulings I've seen in a long time. I played a greentide with the same thing. Most greentides at the event had one.

In the spirit of altering certain rules to be "more fun" this should be at the top of the list.

At one point the guy had boyz 36ish inches up the table with a couple lone dudes in the back within 12in of the shield... come on...

 Blackmoor wrote:
Well, it is RAW. It is just like GW though to not see the consequences of combing an enormous unit with the void shield generator.

Breazeal wrote:
Those Large yellow knights I have seen on several of the picture threads. What model range are they or are they scratch built? I have attached a photo.

Budzerker wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

Which is one of the most ridiculous rulings I've seen in a long time. I played a greentide with the same thing. Most greentides at the event had one.

In the spirit of altering certain rules to be "more fun" this should be at the top of the list.

At one point the guy had boyz 36ish inches up the table with a couple lone dudes in the back within 12in of the shield... come on...

PanzerLeader wrote:

 RobPro wrote:


Shh! You're not supposed to let everybody know that every army can counter everything else!

The top 8 lists looked like they were very well attuned to the missions for this event and the terrain, which I think contributed a huge amount to where they placed (right after the skill level of their pilots).

I would like to see everything under 1850 that lets you stay battle forged allowed next year, a 900 or 1450 point titan won't help you with maelstrom.

I would invert the skill level and the list considerations. Sean played almost the exact same list at Templecon two weeks prior and also did well even though the mission format (ETC) could not be more different.