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I thought this would be a rule that is going to come up and well, I think it's pretty clear that this is in fact the case.

The Harlequin Masque, Detachment allows units from turn 2 onward to run and charge in the same turn. If a independent character that is not a Harlequin joins the squad can the squad run and charge in the same turn?

I say yes, it does not stop being a unit of Harlequins.

Here's the problem, what kind of unit is it when it's 1 IC and another IC?

What if a Shadowseer joins a unit of Wyches? Do the Wyches gain the run and charge? It's still considered a unit and is allowed to declare a charge if it runs.

Anyway this is the question that's going to come up eventually thought I'd get it out there.

Depends. Who joined who?

If IC A moves into coherency of IC B, then the unit is IC B.

That's a good point. Having someone join you and you joining someone else are different.

I think if an IC joins a unit from C:H then yes as they become a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

Not so much in the SS joining the Wyches example for the same reason in reverse.

If they are Battle Brothers then the IC can join the unit(pg 127, only Battle Brothers can join each other's units). And as long as at least 1 model in the unit has H&R (pg 165) the whole unit can hit and run.

So if you're Battle Brothers then yes, it can confer.

Yeah the question wasn't regarding Hit and Run but rather those two.

A Non Harlequin IC joining a Harlequin Character do they gain the ability to charge and run?

A Harlequin joining say a Wych Squad do they gain the ability to charge and run?

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah the question wasn't regarding Hit and Run but rather those two.

A Non Harlequin IC joining a Harlequin Character do they gain the ability to charge and run?

A Harlequin joining say a Wych Squad do they gain the ability to charge and run?

You did see the second part where I pointed out that Hit and Run only needs a model in the unit with the rule to use it right? It's a rule that confers.

It depends on the exact wording of the special rule that allows them to run and charge. Can anyone provide the exact wording?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah the question wasn't regarding Hit and Run but rather those two.

A Non Harlequin IC joining a Harlequin Character do they gain the ability to charge and run?

A Harlequin joining say a Wych Squad do they gain the ability to charge and run?

You did see the second part where I pointed out that Hit and Run only needs a model in the unit with the rule to use it right? It's a rule that confers.

The new Harlequin formation allows units within it to run and then charge. He is asking about whether that ability confers to battle brother units.

Hit and run is a separate issue and is quite clear as you stated.

 Eldarain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah the question wasn't regarding Hit and Run but rather those two.

A Non Harlequin IC joining a Harlequin Character do they gain the ability to charge and run?

A Harlequin joining say a Wych Squad do they gain the ability to charge and run?

You did see the second part where I pointed out that Hit and Run only needs a model in the unit with the rule to use it right? It's a rule that confers.

The new Harlequin formation allows units within it to run and then charge. He is asking about whether that ability confers to battle brother units.

Hit and run is a separate issue and is quite clear as you stated.

I don't have the book yet, so the question is, does it give those models the Hit and Run rule specifically (like how the Decurion gives models Relentless) or does it just say that they may Hit and Run?

I think the distinction will rest there (pending FAQs 3 years from now).

You can't normally charge after running. This formation allows units within it to do so. He wants to know if an IC from the formation joins a BB unit can they then run and charge.

Hit and Run is not part of the formations rules. Harlequins do have it and confer to others normally as you described.

The main special detachment allows you to run and charge as well.

It all depens on the wording of the rule...

"Units in this formation may run and charge..."
Yes, the IC joins the unit and is subject to this rule.

"Models in this formation may run and charge..."
No, the IC is subject to rules effecting the unit, this rule doesnt it effects models.

I dont have access to the Harlequin formation in question, but it comes down to the rule saying units or models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to add, if the IC joins a not Formation unit the IC is subject to rules that effect his new unit, not units from his formation. As he is kind of no longer a "unit" from the formation, hes a model in another unit now.

IC joining IC, very hard to say

Assuming it applies to units from the Harlequins detachment, if an non-Harlequins IC joins a Harlequins unit then absolutely they remain a Harlequins unit.

If a Harlequins IC joins a non-Harlequins unit then absolutely not, as the unit is a non-Harlequins unit.

If a non-Harlequins IC and a Harlequins IC are joined then it seems it would depend on which IC moved into coherency with the other.

ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't have the book yet, so the question is, does it give those models the Hit and Run rule specifically (like how the Decurion gives models Relentless) or does it just say that they may Hit and Run?

I think the distinction will rest there (pending FAQs 3 years from now).

Stop asking about Hit and Run. The question is NOT ABOUT hit and run, this has been made clear 3 or 4 times now.

Some Harlequin formations allow you to make a Run move and then Declare a Charge in the same turn. The query is whether a non-Harlequin IC joining a Harlequin unit frmo one of these formations could Run and then Declare a charge, or whether they would prohibit the unit from doing so.

From memory alone, the wording is "units from", as an IC is anormal member of theunit for all rules purposes, and the unit most definitely is from C:H, they can indeed charge and run.

As to the issue of only 2 IC's joining each other, it would appear that it would not have the ability to both run and charge. The unit of the 2 IC's would be both Factions and be both a unit from the Detachment/Formation and not a unit from the Detachment/Formation. This hybrid status does not comply with the conditions of the ability. It does not matter who joins whom because the rules state:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes,..."

Regardless of who joins whom, they are part of each other's unit.

The IC does not have the special rule when joined to the unit, because special rules for formations/detachments are given to the models in them prior to deployment.

So the rule would have to state it affects the unit in the special rule itself, if it states 'models with this rule' then the unit would not be able to use it with the IC attached that does not have the special rule. If the rule states 'units with this rule' or something similar, it appears the IC counts as a member of the unit for "all rules purposes" and the unit would benefit from the rule. As the IC is part of the unit, it would also appear to benefit from the rule.

Until someone can verbatim quote the rule and not the leaked poor translation from italy/spain in the rumors thread it is hard to discuss the issue.

blaktoof wrote:
Until someone can verbatim quote the rule and not the leaked poor translation from italy/spain in the rumors thread it is hard to discuss the issue.

Codex: Harlequins, p68 wrote:Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this Detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn.

 Happyjew wrote:
Depends. Who joined who?

If IC A moves into coherency of IC B, then the unit is IC B.

Got a rules quote to support that?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Depends. Who joined who?

If IC A moves into coherency of IC B, then the unit is IC B.

Got a rules quote to support that?

Independent Character rules.

To join a unit an IC simply has to move so that they are within coherency at the end of the Movement phase.

So, two IC's 12" apart. IC A moves 6" towards IC B. IC B moves 4" towards IC A. IC B moved so that at the end of the Movement phase he is in coherency with IC A, thus joining the unit "IC A".

IC A also moved such that he was within 2" of IC B at the end of the movement phase. Unless you're claiming IC A moves 6" towards unit B, unit B moves 4" towards IC A, means IC A does not join unit B? Is that your claim.

Always both ICs have moved such that they have ended the movement phase within 2" of each other, even if one elected to not move such that he ended the movement phase within 2" of the other.

 Happyjew wrote:

Independent Character rules.

To join a unit an IC simply has to move so that they are within coherency at the end of the Movement phase.

So, two IC's 12" apart. IC A moves 6" towards IC B. IC B moves 4" towards IC A. IC B moved so that at the end of the Movement phase he is in coherency with IC A, thus joining the unit "IC A".

As I quoted above, the rules regarding IC's don't concern themselves with who joined whom in the "part of the unit for all rules purposes" language. It is irrelevant.

The IC who was joined isn't part of the unit, they are the unit. So yes, it does care.

 Quanar wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Until someone can verbatim quote the rule and not the leaked poor translation from italy/spain in the rumors thread it is hard to discuss the issue.

Codex: Harlequins, p68 wrote:Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this Detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn.

Based on the wording, I'd say no, an IC that joins a Harlequin unit /cannot/ take advantage of the Run and Charge. It says "units in this detachment" (referring to the harlequin units in the formation/masque), and while an allied Battle Brother IC could join them, he's not part of their detachment, despite being part of their unit.

So the Harlequin unit, despite being a unit in the detachment, cannot use Rising Crescendo?

Why is that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The IC who was joined isn't part of the unit, they are the unit. So yes, it does care.

That makes absolutely no sense. After they have been joined they are absolutely part of a unit. The unit is 2 IC's of which each is a part of.

Angelic wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The IC who was joined isn't part of the unit, they are the unit. So yes, it does care.

That makes absolutely no sense. After they have been joined they are absolutely part of a unit.

The question is which IC is being joined to make it a unit.

I can't find anywhere in the rulebook that details how you determine who joined who. As we are only given permission to declare who an IC is joining if there are more than one available options.

 Eldarain wrote:

Angelic wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The IC who was joined isn't part of the unit, they are the unit. So yes, it does care.

That makes absolutely no sense. After they have been joined they are absolutely part of a unit.

The question is which IC is being joined to make it a unit.

I can't find anywhere in the rulebook that details how you determine who joined who. As we are only given permission to declare who an IC is joining if there are more than one available options.

It doesn't matter. The rules say "While and Independent Character is part of a unit...". It is not a once and done thing determined by who joined whom. How is it possible to say that either IC is not part of a unit of 2 members?

If two BB ICs move within 2" of each other and join to form a unit which detachment is the unit from for the purposes of utilizing detachment specific special rules.

A? B? Both? Neither?

Honest question. I don't know.

 Quanar wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Until someone can verbatim quote the rule and not the leaked poor translation from italy/spain in the rumors thread it is hard to discuss the issue.

Codex: Harlequins, p68 wrote:Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this Detachment that have the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn.

Just so it doesn't get overlooked, the IC that is joining a Harlequin unit must also have Fleet. As quoted above, the Run and Charge ability applies to Units with Fleet, and Units only have Fleet if they are "...composed entirely of models with this special rule..." (from the Fleet entry in the BRB. This might not settle the arguement of the 2 IC unit, but it might lower the instances in which it applies.

Edit: Never mind, I just looked at how many IC choices for the Eldar and Dark Eldar have Fleet. It only rules out 2 from the Dark Eldar and none from the Eldar.