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Considering Titan is part of the Sol System, it would be the second most fortified, well, anything. After the Horus Heresy, the Imperium pretty much turned the entire solar system into a weapon filled with seemingly endless torpedoes and lances.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...

Nothing suggests that this is the case.

They are often compared (along with Inquisitors) because they are among the most independent beings in the Imperium. Very few people have the legal authority (not power, authority) to boss them around or bully them.
However, they do not really have equal power.
Each of them has loads in their own way, but it's not always that comparable.

They have money, but that money will do nothing for a chapter.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...

Nothing suggests that this is the case.

Pretty sure this is just on paper to make Rogue Trader characters seem more interesting. I HIGHLY doubt a Chapter Master would entertain such a notion.

Rogue Traders are given certain rights in their Charters to do things that normal citizens of the Imperium cannot do (such as own starships or trade with Xenos). These Charters are passed down through the lines of the Trade Dynasty, and can be quite valuable, as things are added to them with new writs and charters, assigned by various Imperial officials and other worthies.

These Charters do not, in any way, put a Rogue Trader on an equal footing with a Chapter Master or an Inquisitor. A Rogue Trader who is acting outside of his or her Warrant of Trade (by, say, smuggling artifacts off of Daemon Worlds) is just as screwed if an Inquisitorial fleet catches up with them as anyone else would be.

 Psienesis wrote:
Rogue Traders are given certain rights in their Charters to do things that normal citizens of the Imperium cannot do (such as own starships or trade with Xenos). These Charters are passed down through the lines of the Trade Dynasty, and can be quite valuable, as things are added to them with new writs and charters, assigned by various Imperial officials and other worthies.

These Charters do not, in any way, put a Rogue Trader on an equal footing with a Chapter Master or an Inquisitor. A Rogue Trader who is acting outside of his or her Warrant of Trade (by, say, smuggling artifacts off of Daemon Worlds) is just as screwed if an Inquisitorial fleet catches up with them as anyone else would be.

If I implied that a Rogue Trader was the equal of an Inquisitor, that was my mistake.

As far as autonomy, the Rogue Trader is comparable to a Chapter Master. A Chapter Master cannot legally compel a Rogue Trader just as a Rogue Trader cannot legally compel a Chapter Master. The main difference between those two is that one is subject to the Inquisitoion while the other is not.

 Shidank wrote:
Marines Malevolent seem a fair guess on this one.

While on this, what seems to make a chapter stick out as an unworthy successor to the Astartes mantle?

It can't be ruthlessness alone, or the Carcharodons would be near the top. Looking at the Soul Drinkers, impetuosity seems a contributing factor.

Carcharodons ARE near the top, in my opinion. Marines Malevolent and Grey Knights are also strong contenders.

I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.

A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.

BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.

Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.

Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.

So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.

BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.

Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.

Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.

So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.

Whats that? I can't hear you over the 95 or so Grey Knight corpses.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.

BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.

Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.

Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.

So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.

.... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.

I wanna give props to the person who derailed this thread. Your trolling skills are clearly superior to mine.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Carcharodons ARE near the top, in my opinion. Marines Malevolent and Grey Knights are also strong contenders.

Yea, what they did to the Star Phantoms was pretty unforgivable. My vote probably goes to the Minotaurs though.

 Shidank wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.

A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.

Indeed!

 Psienesis wrote:
.... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.

This never really made much sense to me. Surely you can't purge every planet that's ever been exposed to the Warp or you'd lose all your Fortress Worlds like Cadia and so on. Chaos raids are pretty widespread after all. All they'd have to do is show up with a few daemons or broadcoast some daemonic nonsense on the planetary vox system NL-style and the Imperium would do their work for them. The Alpha Legion would have destroyed the Imperium long ago if this were the case. Makes no sense. And the average citizen wouldn't even know about Angron or the other traitor primarchs since its all been purged from the recrods so him being a Daemon Primarch would just be the same as every other Daemon Prince - basically just some kind of daemon leader.

I don't believe we can call the Minotaurs a 'Dirt Bag' chapter because they merely perform the duty of their office. They are fulfilling their purpose as set out by the High Lords, compared to other questionable chapters who do dickish things of their own accord.

In my head, I remember something about the Marines Malevolent being declared renegades. If not, then I'd rank them pretty high on 'Dirt Bag'.

The Carcharodons allegedly fight like the Black Templars and yet no one has brought up the BT's as a potential 'Dirt Bag' chapter.

I'd also throw in the Star Phantoms as an option because they don't care about collateral damage, even Lord Solar Macharius said they were, "Unsuitable for tactical close support of other Imperial Units" because of that.

 Otto Weston wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.

I'm sorry but I disagree with your "second-best fortress is the galaxy" statement. I do believe it's safe to say Terra's Imperial palace is the best fortress in the galaxy but there are many contenders for second place. Whilst it may have some of the most advanced Void Shields and Laser batteries around, I don't believe it's the second most defensible fortress out there. Lexicanum states that is "perhaps the greatest fortress" since Terra but I believe there are better candidates for second place.

For a start, the Iron warriors build countless fortresses across the galaxy and they're renowned for their skill in these matters - I'd say their Fortress World of Medrengard almost rivals Terra itself and so therefore in my humble opinion, it would take second place. If you're looking at single fortresses though and disqualify entire fortress worlds as options, then I'd suggest other potential contenders for second place such as the Deathwatch Fortress of Erioch and the Grey Knight Fortress Monastery, the Citadel of Titan. The Phalanx and Rock could also have shots at second place, hell, the Rock survived a bombardment which destroyed Caliban around it. Loathe as I am to say it, even the Ultramarine Fortress of Hera is a contender, it was built at the height of the Crusade (and therefore most likely has some of the best tech too) and is made up of multiple domes which are each citadels in their own right.

These are just some options off of the top of my head and I'd pick all of them over the Fang.

Highest praise I've found for the Fortress of Hera:

The Ultramarines' citadel is considered a wonder of engineering constructed by the hand of the Chapter's own Primarch Roboute Guilliman during the bygone era of the Great Crusade.

I've never seen nor heard of a claim that the Fortress of Hera was anywhere close to the second best fortress in the galaxy. (Unless we have accounts of fortresses under siege, we have to judge them by Tech and size. The Fortress of Hera was built around the same time as the Fang and so should have the same 'advanced' technology. The difference is that it was built by the Ultramarines who had a lot more resources to dedicate to construction at the time and so the Fortress of Hera was made up of multiple citadels (at least two) whereas the Fang is only slightly larger than a standard Citadel.)

Highest praise I've found for the Citadel of Titan:

It is a forbidding sight that welcomes no visitors and brooks no trespass.

I've never read nor heard of praise for the Citadel of Titan, and this was the closest to it that I could find. (I have no canon to support my claim on this but it stands to reason that when Malcador had it constructed he would have asked for Dorn's council in its design, if not getting Dorn to design it from the ground up. Considering they were both in Sol at the time looking towards Terra's defences, I believe it's highly likely that Dorn designed the Citadel of Titan.)

Highest praise I've found for Watch Fortress Erioch:

A brutal mass of armoured basilica, domes, and spires, the fortress bristles with enough armament to rival a sizable battlegroup of Imperial warships,

Nowhere has it been claimed that it was the greatest fortress in the galaxy outside of Terra. (Since you're dismissing space-stations, then this would also be discounted.)

The Phalanx and the Rock are space Stations, not fortresses. (The Rock was a Fortress first and only became mobile later - as a Fortress it survived the destruction of an entire planet after bombardment and a warp storm that tore the planet to bits around it. That is significant.) While Aldurkh was once a mighty fortress, having powerful void shields does not make it the best fortress in the galaxy. Fortress worlds do not count either, as fortress worlds are fortresses of a whole other class.

Your opinion regarding the Fang does not matter when faced with no evidence to support. The Fang is widely considered to be the best fortress outside of the Imperial Palace, and even Rogal Dorn, the harshest fortress builder imaginable, gave it his approval and praise.(The only praise I've seen is Lexicanum's "perhaps the greatest fortress" and that's not exactly roaring approval. Also, I've been looking here - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines and yet I can't find the quote supposedly from Dorn giving the Fang his approval)

My responses above in red.

Whilst I agree Rogal Dorn is a good judge of Fortresses, I can't seem to find the quote which says he approved of the Fang. Also, he's not exactly an unbiased Judge - even during the Crusade he didn't exactly see eye to eye with Perturabo and the Iron Warriors and he would not have praised them... especially after the heresy. The Iron Warrior Fortresses (past and present) may be contenders and yet wouldn't even be acknowledged by Dorn.

The Fang nearly fell to 2 million humans and 700 odd astartes. That's pathetic compared to the numbers that are usually thrown around in the 40k Universe. A small Ork Waagh could easily drop 100x those numbers and the Fang wouldn't have stood a chance. The defenders of a fortress are a key part of the fortress, you can't defend the Fang by saying they only had a single company there; a Fortress's usual garrison is part of the criteria (For example, what good are battlements if they're unmanned? Astartes would make better use of defensive emplacements than grots. Etc.).

Let me emphasize to you, THE FANG WAS HELD BY NO MORE THAN 100 ASTARTES AND SOME SERFS (not even a full Company), it's a wonder it's even still standing. There was a reason that Magnus drew over 90% of the Space Wolves over to the other side of the galaxy, and it's that if the standard garrison was there, then Magnus's chance of victory would be zero, zip, zilch, nonexistent.

Fortress of Hera was built at the same time, yes, and by the Ultramarines, who have better supply lines, yes, BUT, in the Codex Space Wolves, it says that Asaheim is rich with precious minerals, such as Adamantium, which were used in the construction of the Fang. Better supply lines do not make a better fortress, it is the architect that does that. Also, the same time does not mean the same tech. For instance, Russ may have discovered a cache of Archaeotech in a neighboring solar system, and used this cache as the blueprints for his fortress's defences, while Rouboute was just going off of standard Imperial weaponry and the like (we really don't know, but the Fortress of Hera has never been stated to be using tech that is no longer capable of being built by the Imperium, to the best of my knowledge). Also, the Fang, on any standard day, will have at least several hundred Space Marines defending it, as well as innumerable wolves, as the Space Wolves have the manpower to spare. Also, when defending against a Primarch (basically the most genius thing in all of human history), chances of victory decrease massively.

BTW, The Fang is composed of miles of underground catacombs, as well as the areas around the mountain it is composed of (which is the tallest mountain on an entire continent of mountains), and is at least several miles high and wide in just the mountain alone. It is at least as big, if not bigger, than the Fortress of Hera.

My information on the Fang comes directly from Codex:Space Wolves, 7th Edition and 5th Edition, as well as some from 6th Edition (though I didn't really delve too deeply into the 6th Ed version).

I did not discount Watch Fortress Erioch, as it is no longer a Space Station, by all intents and purposes. It used to be a Space Station, but is now a fortress in its own right.

On the Citadel of Titan: Just because it had Dorn's advice in construction does not make it the greatest thing imaginable. Dorn bent his full will into making the Imperial Palace impenetrable, but that does not mean that every fortress is going to receive as much attention and as much care in construction. In fact, Perturabo was PROBABLY a better fortress-builder than Dorn, as Perturabo's true passion was in building, not destroying. Considering this discussion is about 40k, not 30k, however, Iron Warriors fortresses don't count. Or, at least, not unless you can find an Iron Warriors fortress outside of Medrengard.

Aldurukh was originally constructed with Feudal World tech, and its backbone lies in Feudal World construction. While it has been upgraded with Imperial-standard void shields in copious quantities, void shields alone do not make the Rock the best fortress in the galaxy. Also, the Fang has DAoT-level void shields (I would assume, as it was built with non-standard Imperial tech), so what makes you think that the Fang would not survive the destruction of Fenris? The Fang survived orbital bombardment for weeks from literally an entire Imperial Navy battlefleet, with battleships capable of destroying a planet with their standard orbital bombardments should they all fire at the same time (the DA Fleet did the same in 30k, though it actually just "cracked" the planet, while the RP finished the job), and the Fang's Void Shields did not even falter a single time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...

Nothing suggests that this is the case.

They are often compared (along with Inquisitors) because they are among the most independent beings in the Imperium. Very few people have the legal authority (not power, authority) to boss them around or bully them.
However, they do not really have equal power.
Each of them has loads in their own way, but it's not always that comparable.

I said that in response to what somebody had said, which listed Rogue Traders as a Chapter Master's peers. But, if you want, you can just take it out of context and make me look like an idiot, I honestly don't really care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.

BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.

Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.

Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.

So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.

.... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.

Not even close to the only logical course of action. For instance, have Psykers check out large amounts of Imperial Citizenry to ensure there is no Chaos corruption. Or, and this is just spitballing here, literally anything but exterminate an entire population with no evidence whatsoever of Chaos Corruption


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Grey Knights are the SCUM of Space Marine chapters. Murder entire planetary populations because of a hint of daemons nearby. Slaughter Sisters for their blood in a huge BS moment. Draigo. Ignore all other Imperial authority but about half of the Inquisition. Murder Space Marines who even see a daemon, it's a wonder the Space Wolves haven't wiped them out.

BS about them being incorruptible, when it's clear they are.

Do you know anything about Chaos? The needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few. If they let daemonic taint fester, it will eventually a full-blown daemonic invasion that could potentially consume entire sectors of space, resulting in untold billions dying and threatening the security of the Imperium. Hell they Grey Knights are part of the reason why the Imperium even still exists, and hasn't fallen to daemonic invasion erupting from deep inside its own space. Without the Grey Knights, there is no Imperium at all.

Tell that the first population of Armageddon. The people rallied to stop the daemonic invasion alongside the Wolves and the Grey Knights did NOTHING until the final hours. Then they turned their guns and swords on the population they gave nearly everything to stop the Angron, they were either outright murdered, or sterilized and worked to death in concentration camps. It's BS to think they are the reason the Imperium exists. IG, Sisters, and Space Marines have fought Chaos alone without their help and won. They certainly don't need Grey Knights coming in and killing them all after they did all the real work.

So they aren't just holes, and murderers, they are self righteous cowards and glory hogs.

Whats that? I can't hear you over the 95 or so Grey Knight corpses.

To me, the Grey Knights are the Uriel Ventrice of Chapters. Basically, their glory hounds who get gak done while they hog all the glory.

Not even close to the only logical course of action. For instance, have Psykers check out large amounts of Imperial Citizenry to ensure there is no Chaos corruption. Or, and this is just spitballing here, literally anything but exterminate an entire population with no evidence whatsoever of Chaos Corruption

"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...

Nothing suggests that this is the case.

They are often compared (along with Inquisitors) because they are among the most independent beings in the Imperium. Very few people have the legal authority (not power, authority) to boss them around or bully them.
However, they do not really have equal power.
Each of them has loads in their own way, but it's not always that comparable.

I said that in response to what somebody had said, which listed Rogue Traders as a Chapter Master's peers. But, if you want, you can just take it out of context and make me look like an idiot, I honestly don't really care.

Oh, sorry! I'd misunderstood :(
My comment was mostly aimed at the first guy, not you.

Because in practise, because of the huge variations in RT and Inq power, it can be very hard to compare them to anything else: some RT literally could destroy entire space marine chapter from space, with huge fleets, strange weapons and allies, and hordes of IG and personal troops.
However, some of them are basically 1 ship, zero savings, and no allies. 10 marines could take these down without too much efforts, if they could get into the ship.

Basically, in direct combat, there is no difference between a mighty rogue trader and a mighty inquisitor (actually, the RT generally has more direct spaceship and huge planetary murder kinda stuff handy, while the Inq can get more power with some preparation (technically, there is no legal limit to how much he can have), and generally has more elite troops and spies handy). An inquisitor lord and a major dynasty head both have enormous military and esoteric resources, although the RT might be richer and the Inq have better spies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Carcharodons ARE near the top, in my opinion. Marines Malevolent and Grey Knights are also strong contenders.

Yea, what they did to the Star Phantoms was pretty unforgivable. My vote probably goes to the Minotaurs though.

 Shidank wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.

A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.

Indeed!

 Psienesis wrote:
.... the Sisters probably would have purged those citizens, too. They'd seen that which should not be seen, heard words that should never be uttered and been exposed to the corrupting influence of the Warp. It was the only logical course of action.

This never really made much sense to me. Surely you can't purge every planet that's ever been exposed to the Warp or you'd lose all your Fortress Worlds like Cadia and so on. Chaos raids are pretty widespread after all. All they'd have to do is show up with a few daemons or broadcoast some daemonic nonsense on the planetary vox system NL-style and the Imperium would do their work for them. The Alpha Legion would have destroyed the Imperium long ago if this were the case. Makes no sense. And the average citizen wouldn't even know about Angron or the other traitor primarchs since its all been purged from the recrods so him being a Daemon Primarch would just be the same as every other Daemon Prince - basically just some kind of daemon leader.

After seeing a major daemonic Insursion, especially with the baleful energies and fell powers unleashed with the traitor primarch, I'm just not surprised at their reaction. It's a bit excessive, and very brutal, but understandable.
Personally, I'd have tossed all of those men in front of a hive fleet or something. have them die, but at least for a purpose.

@Talon of Anathrax

Well the Grey Knights were not only partly responsible for the execution of thousand of guardsmen and PDF troopers who fought in the war, but also for the destruction of reinforcement ships that were on their way there and outpost who detected their ships while they were comming to Armageddon. That's one of the reason the Grey Knights are perceived has D-Bag.

Not reinforcement ships, the fleeing vessels carrying potentially-contaminated personnel and cargo that the Space Wolves allowed to flee hither and yon.

Any world those ships went to was summarily subject to Exterminatus.

That's the Space Wolves' fault.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not reinforcement ships, the fleeing vessels carrying potentially-contaminated personnel and cargo that the Space Wolves allowed to flee hither and yon.

Any world those ships went to was summarily subject to Exterminatus.

That's the Space Wolves' fault.

Well that's the problem, the Wolves never look at the bigger picture.

Re the Fortress of Hera, I doubt very much it's all that great it's worth nothing that the defensive rebouts chosen in the battle of Mcragge where the polar fortresses. PRESUMABLY, those are the "toughest nuts to crack" on Mcragge.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
This never really made much sense to me. Surely you can't purge every planet that's ever been exposed to the Warp or you'd lose all your Fortress Worlds like Cadia and so on. Chaos raids are pretty widespread after all. All they'd have to do is show up with a few daemons or broadcoast some daemonic nonsense on the planetary vox system NL-style and the Imperium would do their work for them. The Alpha Legion would have destroyed the Imperium long ago if this were the case. Makes no sense. And the average citizen wouldn't even know about Angron or the other traitor primarchs since its all been purged from the recrods so him being a Daemon Primarch would just be the same as every other Daemon Prince - basically just some kind of daemon leader.

After seeing a major daemonic Insursion, especially with the baleful energies and fell powers unleashed with the traitor primarch, I'm just not surprised at their reaction. It's a bit excessive, and very brutal, but understandable.
Personally, I'd have tossed all of those men in front of a hive fleet or something. have them die, but at least for a purpose.

Yea but you'd do that to each and every system that's been exposed to daemonic incursions? Don't you think the Imperium would be rapidly depopulated in strategically vital positions? Not to mention it'd be a massive waste of resources to basically fight yourself. You already have the Inquistion to root out corruption, you don't need them if you just want to kill your entire population indiscriminately.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Psienesis wrote:
The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters.

This has never been the case.

Other Space Marine Chapters and /or the Grey Knights have been the typical force called to take errant Space Marine Chapters to task. Has that meant that the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition have not tried to use SIsters to do it? Sure. And it ends up poorly for them as often as not.

The only fluff blurb that ever suggested that was in a Rogue Trader rulebook sidebar. And that was back when the Sisters were just galactic busybodies, and when Space Marines still supposedly worshipped the Imperial Cult. It has never been mentioned since then and for good reason. The closest the fluff gets to suggesting the Sisters are used against Space Marines is the Codex: Witchhunters line of "challenging Renegade Space Marine chapters" but provides no context beyond that which would suggest they are the "go to". It's simple Sister Fanon, lacking a reasonable causal relationship. "Because the Sisters will fight renegade Space Marines, it must mean they are the first choice." No, that's not how logic works, lol.

Meanwhile, when the fluff talks about Space Marines who have gone renegade, this is how it works.

Renegades:
Flame Falcons - Destroyed by Grey Knights
Relictors - 4 Chapters of Space Marines, then later, Grey Knights.
Badab War - Space Marines
Crimson Slaughter - Space Marines

Meanwhile, the Sisters glorious litany of self-provoked offensive actions against Space Marines:
Sons of Malice - lost horribly. Even worse, the sons of Malice weren't even renegades until they were attacked.
Space Wolves - lost. Again, the Space Wolves weren't renegades, this was more galactic busybodying by the Ecclesiarchy.



Just because they've done it occassionaly in the fluff doesn't make them the "go to" option. The Sisters are shock troops and religious enforcers, nothing more. They are also single-minded and unqestioning, meaning they can be easily steered in whatever direction an amibitious and clever Inquisitor or Cardinal can convince them is heretical. This is why they end up being routinely complicit in stealing Xenos artifacts, or foolishly attacking Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy is the 40K universe's poke at the dangers of unquestioning belief and the consequences of reactionary action by religious zealots. The Sisters of Battle aren't used to attack Space Marines. That woud be silly. Space Marines are superior to Sisters of Battle in every way, from biology, to training, to arsenal. What the Sisters of Battle will do, is attack Space Marines if you convince them it's the correct thing to do, because they don't stop to consider consequences.

Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.

minotaurs. ally killing bastards
possibly grey knights thanks to the inquisition

the space sharks just feth up the imperiums enemies very well,
marines malevolent are just asses who do their job.
i wouldn't say soul drinkers are dirt bags, just kind of eh.

 Brennonjw wrote:
minotaurs. ally killing bastards
possibly grey knights thanks to the inquisition

the space sharks just feth up the imperiums enemies very well,
marines malevolent are just asses who do their job.
i wouldn't say soul drinkers are dirt bags, just kind of eh.

Thing is the Minotaurs are doing exactly what they've been created and ordered to do. They follow the express instruction of the High Lords, they are simply a tool. I don't believe the tool should be blamed for the actions the wielder forces them to do.

Whereas the Dark Angels -- they commit acts of friendly-fire and heresies to protect their secret. Their subsequent actions have been worse than the original secret! I'd say the Dark Angels are worse than the Minotaurs.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I don't believe we can call the Minotaurs a 'Dirt Bag' chapter because they merely perform the duty of their office. They are fulfilling their purpose as set out by the High Lords, compared to other questionable chapters who do dickish things of their own accord.

In my head, I remember something about the Marines Malevolent being declared renegades. If not, then I'd rank them pretty high on 'Dirt Bag'.

The Carcharodons allegedly fight like the Black Templars and yet no one has brought up the BT's as a potential 'Dirt Bag' chapter.

I'd also throw in the Star Phantoms as an option because they don't care about collateral damage, even Lord Solar Macharius said they were, "Unsuitable for tactical close support of other Imperial Units" because of that.

Ok, maybe it was Karma for the Star Phantoms

I still feel like the Minotaurs are dirtbags, regardless of whether or not they're the High Lords of Terra's hounds. Mainly because of what they did to the Lamenters, who were fighting for the wrong side but still loyal. And because those guys have terrible luck and I feel bad for them.

 Brennonjw wrote:
minotaurs. ally killing bastards
possibly grey knights thanks to the inquisition

the space sharks just feth up the imperiums enemies very well,
marines malevolent are just asses who do their job.
i wouldn't say soul drinkers are dirt bags, just kind of eh.

Yea pretty much how I feel I think.

 J3f wrote:
Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium Crazy Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.

Drop Pod assault by non-Astartes against Astartes? Really? Doesn't sound like a plan but I'll not question the fluff validity.

oh yeah, I suppose DA should be up for debate as well, with the whole imma kill my friends so no one knows that i have a secret.

Exactly

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh yeah, I suppose DA should be up for debate as well, with the whole imma kill my friends so no one knows that i have a secret.

Hi, do you have a spare minute?