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Rather than clog up the Army Challenge thread, I thought I'd move this here.

 Paradigm wrote:
Cheers! By my reckoning, I'm at close to 200 or more LotR minis since about last September when I started taking them seriously. Next month will see me bring my Gondor force up to 1000 points, add a few hundred points to my Fallen Men and possibly do something with my few plastic LotR-era Dwarves to make them fit with my Iron Hills army, and then I'm dangerously close to clearing my LotR backlog! Not that that'll stop me, I have great plans for more armies. Laketown post-Smaug, Dol Guldur/Gundabad Orcs, converted Mirkwood when I can get some Galadrhim cheap... the list goes on, with Moria being the only faction I don't really have plans for.

As for KoW, here's my very premilinaty thinking:

KoM/Gondor:

2x12 WoMT as basic infantry regiments
12x Osgiliath Vets as some kind of Elite regiment
A few Troops of archers, both Rangers (will use Elf profiles with tweaks) and WoMT archers
6x KoMT as Cav regiment
6x SKODA as elite cav if there are any.
Assorted heroes/support ect

Napkin maths suggests I should be able to hit around 1000 points with that, no idea if it's any good though.

For Mordor, I was actually thinking of going Undead. Orcs as either skellies or zombies, Morannons as Revenants, Ringwraiths as Necromancers/Vampires. I think that might fit the 'mindless horde and fell sorcery' style better than the actual Orc list (which I'll probably use for Uruks).

Those numbers all sound good - with that many figures already done I'd say you're already good to go.

Just be aware that most units in the Undead forces in KoW are Shambling - so they don't get to move "At the Double" (ie March Move in WHFB) - they need a Necromancer to cast Dark Surge. You could consider that thematically as the Orcs in general being useless (cowardly?) rabble and needing a good kick up the arse to get them moving.

Here's my 600-pt Gondor list:


----------------------

And my 1200pt Gondor List:




Stuff like the Banners and Musicians are going to be removed in 2nd Edition (excepting as special magical items) but you'll still be able to include them as modelling options. Basically they weren't worth the points investment, especially for smaller units. I still tend(ed) to take them because I like modelling flags and horns.


Based on your list, I'd go with the following:

2x12 WoMT as basic infantry regiments - assuming one armed with swords and one with spears:
Shield Wall (swords) Regiment 12 (20) - 80pts
Pole-Arms Block (spears) Regiment 12 (20) - 80pts

12x Osgiliath Vets as some kind of Elite regiment
Foot Guard Regiment 12 (20) - 115pts

A few Troops of archers, both Rangers (will use Elf profiles with tweaks) and WoMT archers
For WoMT archers, use them as Missile Troops Blocks - 8 models for (10) is a better use of points than a regiment of 12 (20)
Rangers of Gondor/Grey Company work as Elven Scouts - a good match both thematically and stat-wise. Troops are fast moving and great scouts while regiments can also fight. (I think I may have made an error in my own list about Nimble and Vanguard on Regiments!)

6x KoMT as Cav regiment
Knights Regiment 6 (10) - 175pts
mount on a 125x100mm base. 6 LotR cavalry actually fill out that size of element base really well.

6x SKODA as elite cav if there are any.
Elven Stormwind Cavalry Regiment 6 (10) - 170pts
Another thematic and stat-friendly choice - these guys are the best of the best. It's also 100% kosher with the rules, as the scouts and elves are both troop units taken from the Elf list - so fine as allies.

Assorted heroes/support ect
Look over both the human and elf lists. You can have one hero for each solid (larger then troop) unit. So without even bending anything you can have an Elf hero (plus 1-2 more depending on your choices with the Scouts) and a bunch of human-stat heroes.

That's very helpful, cheers! I'll have a play with the Army Builder and see what I can come up with.

I think Shambling actually suits Mordor Orcs rather nicely, especially with Wraiths as Necromancers, giving them a Surge. I've always preferred the weak, slow and only-dangerous-en-masse Tolkien-style Orcs to the GW/WoW style hulking brutes.

EDIT:

Right, I've put a couple of test lists together, I think they're both legal.

Mordor (Undead) 1000 (970pts)


++ Undead (Standard) (730pts) ++


Warg Riders: Revenant Cavalry Regiment (155pts)

Morannon Orcs: Revenant Regiment (110pts)

Morannon Orcs: Revenant Regiment (110pts)

Mordor Orcs: Skeleton Horde (135pts)

+ Heroes/ Monsters (220pts) +

Nazgul: Necromancer (110pts)

Nazgul: Necromancer (110pts)

++ Kingdoms of Men (Standard) (240pts) ++

+ Solid Units (95pts) +

Easterlings: Pike Phalanx Regiment (95pts)

+ Units (145pts) +

Corsairs: Militia Troop (35pts)

CorsairsMilitia Troop (35pts)

Haradrim Archers: Missile Troop (75pts) [Bows]






And Gondor: 1000 test Gondor (990pts)

++ Kingdoms of Men (Standard) (575pts) ++

Osgiliath Vets: Foot Guard Regiment (115pts)

KoMT: Knights Regiment (175pts)

WoMT: Shield Wall Regiment (80pts)

WoMT: Shield Wall Regiment (80pts)

+ Heroes/ Monsters (125pts) +

Boromir: 'The Captain' (125pts)

++ Elves (Standard) (415pts) ++

+ Solid Units (310pts) +

Rangers: Scout Regiment (140pts)

SKODA: Stormwind Cavalry Regiment (170pts)

+ Units (105pts) +

Rangers: Scout Troop (105pts)




I think with those I have enough to get a feel for the game, with varying unit sizes and some inf, cav and range troops, a little magic and a hero character. One other question I have is would it hugely affect the game to implement the following house rule I saw suggested on another site:

Fight Back: If a unit that has been Charged passes its Nerve test and is not Wavering, it may immediately attack the enemy as if it has charged.


So in other words, it's a more WFB/40k style where in CC, each unit gets to attack each turn if it doesn't break, with the initiative going to the player whose turn it is. Seems like it would just be a bit more natural, and possibly speed things up, without massively impeding the flow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the board is set up, ready to go; pending how many episodes of Firefly I end up wacthing tonight, the test game will go ahead tonight or tomorrow.

I've found that I'm actually going 8-10 models for a Regiment, 4-5 for a Troop, 20 for a Horde. I tried with the numbers suggested above, but it just looked a bit too crowded for some units. But then the element-based gameplay lends itself to that, I can have my Gondorians spread thin and the Orcs packed like sardines and stlll have them evenly matched. It also means my collection can go a bit further, maybe pushing 1250 points without needing more stuff.

No worries at all mate - just wanted to make sure you hadn't overlooked that rule.

Finished the game with a crushing victory for Gondor; only losses were Boromir and a single WOMT regiment, while the Orcs were reduced to just a single Nazgul and the Horde after about 6 turns. The Horde did a ton of damage by itself, but it wasn't enough to stop the Knight-led rampage on either flank or break the plucky line-holding from the good old Warriors of Minas Tirith.

My thoughts on the game itself, though:

- In a word, awesome, it gets a lot of hype as being one of the best Fantasy rulesets around, and frankly, seems like it is! Smooth, fast, clean and deep, yadda yadda yadda! Two thumbs up!

- In the end, I didn't use the house rule from my last post, and quite quickly became enamoured with the back-and-forth of combat until one side breaks. It gave a real sense of struggle as ground was taken and lost turn by turn.

- I think I may need to write up some actual LotR profiles; some things from the Undead, KoM and Elf lists I used were perfectly servicable, but need a tweak or two to really capture the feel of the units (I was very dismayed when I checked and found out the Pike Phalanx I was using for my Easterlings was wounded on a 3+). Does anyone know if the formula for KoW profiles has been made public or figured out by intrpid gamers?

- Most importantly, perhaps, the element-based gameplay really did keep it looking like a proper battle even in the last turns; none of this 'empty trays' and '5-man remnants of regiments' that put me off WFB.

I will thank Az for the recomendation, to give the game a try, it's great fun and I'll certainly be playing more in future!

I'm also quite keen to give this a go once I get my board sorted out.

I need to convince my girlfriend to try it with me.

I thought of maybe using Twilight Kin to represent Orcs. Perhaps a little too "elite" for Orcs, but evil enough and with enough weird monstery options to fill in a lot of the blanks.

I've got Orcs, Dwarves, Undead and now also Kingdoms of Men getting started. 12 models per unit is really a much more manageable size.

After a little digging, I've found a set of fan-lists for LotR-KoW (dubbed rather neatly King of the Rings). Might not be 100% balanced, but Ill certainly try them out in my next game.
http://cruciumgiger.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/lord-of-rings-army-lists-for-kings-of.html

On units sizes, as said above I've found that 8 guys on 25mm rounds looks alright on a Regiment (20) base. Perhaps it's the fact that I've never loved the square-based ranks of WFB, but I prefer the look of a few guys scattered around to everyone in neat rows. And it also allows you to have one force appear 'outnumbered' (as most Good Guys in LotR are!) while keeping the forces balanced.

Cool link! I will definitely give that a look.

 Paradigm wrote:
Finished the game with a crushing victory for Gondor; only losses were Boromir and a single WOMT regiment, while the Orcs were reduced to just a single Nazgul and the Horde after about 6 turns. The Horde did a ton of damage by itself, but it wasn't enough to stop the Knight-led rampage on either flank or break the plucky line-holding from the good old Warriors of Minas Tirith.

My thoughts on the game itself, though:

- In a word, awesome, it gets a lot of hype as being one of the best Fantasy rulesets around, and frankly, seems like it is! Smooth, fast, clean and deep, yadda yadda yadda! Two thumbs up!

- In the end, I didn't use the house rule from my last post, and quite quickly became enamoured with the back-and-forth of combat until one side breaks. It gave a real sense of struggle as ground was taken and lost turn by turn.

- I think I may need to write up some actual LotR profiles; some things from the Undead, KoM and Elf lists I used were perfectly servicable, but need a tweak or two to really capture the feel of the units (I was very dismayed when I checked and found out the Pike Phalanx I was using for my Easterlings was wounded on a 3+). Does anyone know if the formula for KoW profiles has been made public or figured out by intrpid gamers?

- Most importantly, perhaps, the element-based gameplay really did keep it looking like a proper battle even in the last turns; none of this 'empty trays' and '5-man remnants of regiments' that put me off WFB.

I will thank Az for the recomendation, to give the game a try, it's great fun and I'll certainly be playing more in future!

Sounds great! Any pics? The game really does give that feeling of units crashing back and forth at one another, It's one of the things I really like about it.

For the Easterling Pikes, you could try the Basilean Men at Arms w/Spear & Shield profile? Brings their defence up to 4+
Men-at-Arms (spear & shield) Infantry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (10) 5 4+ – 4+ 10 11/13 80
Regiment (20) 5 4+ – 4+ 10 14/16 110
Horde (40) 5 4+ – 4+ 20 21/23 210
Special: Phalanx
Options
• Banner (+15 pts)
• Musician (+10 pts)

Maybe even use the Basilean list for the whole Easterling force? There are Byzantine influences on both forces, and the Basilean Paladin Knights could be a good choice for the Easterling Cataphracts. Take a look, anyway.

Paladin Knights Cavalry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (5) 8 3+ – 5+ 8 12/14 110
Regiment (10) 8 3+ – 5+ 16 15/17 200
Horde (20) 8 3+ – 5+ 32 22/24 385
Special: Crushing Strength (2), Headstrong
Options
• Banner (+15 pts)
• Musician (+10 pts)

I'll take a look at the LotR lists (there are also Historical ones out there as well) though I'm generally just painting to my existing lists for the time being, since the new rules and army lists will be out very soon. Since Mantic is about to launch another Kickstarter, I'm expecting the KoW pledge manager to hit at pretty much the exact same time.

Good call on the Baseliens for Easterlings. I had shied away from them at first thanks to the kind of Holy aspect that really doesn't fit that well in LotR for the good guys, but now I think about it, elite infantry/cavalry, warrior-priests and even fast, light cav (CatCav as Khandish?) would work very well as an Eastern ME list. As with everything else, you have to tone down a bit of the High Fantasy stuff, but that's as simple as ignoring some units and shuffling the odd rule.

No pics, I'm afraid, as my camera is away at the moment, but as and when I get around to doing up some proper movement trays and get a better feel for the rules, I may well go as far as a batrep or two.

Yeah, I just look at the stats & mechanics and think of what they could represent as you've done with the Orcs already while disregarding the fluff (probably for the best with Mantic's fluff anyway!)

Since Blessing is just a variant of Heal anyway, think of it as the hardy Easterling warriors getting up and fighting on, or a rallying recovery of morale. Inspiring and Angelic (Fly + Regeneration) can be co-opted by darker elements like Regular Ringwraiths, Twilight Ringwraiths, Ringwraiths on Black Steeds, etc.

 Paradigm wrote:
Nice progress! I have got 5 WoMT done today, will knock out their fellows tomorrow.

For the KoW conversion, have you found a profile to use for Riders of Rohan? Looking at the Kingdoms of Men list you get Mounted Sergeants (fit pretty well, but can't shoot) or Mounted Scouts (can only be taken in Troops, crap in CC), but I can't find anything that is both competent on the charge and can shoot. I could just split the archers from the rest, but I'd like them to all be able to play 'properly'. I'm having similar problems finding a profile for Khandish and Warg Riders.

I'm not up to my Rohirrim yet, but you could consider using the Twilight Kin (Dark Elves) Heralds of Woe entry to fix this particular issue. They're not as well armoured as KoMT or SKoDA, but they're supposedly the best riders in the lands, so HoW are exceedingly fast, numble and maneuverable - and are armed with bows.

Heralds of Woe Cavalry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (5) 10 4+ 4+ 3+ 5 11/13 90
Regiment (10) 10 4+ 4+ 3+ 10 14/16 160
Special
Light crossbows (treat as bows). Nimble
Options
• Musician (+10 pts)

Isn't KoW LotR just War of the Ring?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Isn't KoW LotR just War of the Ring?

KoW is a lot more streamlined than WotR, and oddly enough much more in line with Middle Earth in how it handles magic (there was waaay too much in WotR). WotR does have its place, but KoW has the advantages of needing a less insane model count (thanks to multi-basing), much less complex rules and less OP heroes.

@Az: thanks for the suggestion, that could certainly work. Ideally I'd want something with Crushing Strength 1 (I see CS2 as 1 for the horse and 1 for the Lance, so I'd like Rohan to have at least CS1), but in the absence of such a profile or creation mechanics, it will certainly do!

Put together a Kingdom's of Men list supposed to represent my planned purchases for Rohan. Just need one box of riders and warriors and the heroes to finish it off.
1000 points -

Spear Phalanx (Regiment) - 95 (12 Warriors of Rohan)
Shieldwall (Regiment) - 80 (12 Warriors of Rohan)
2 x Missile Troop (Troop) - 150 (12 Warriors of Rohan)
Militia Mob (Regiment) - 45 (12 of Tre Manor's Brigands)
Knights (Regiment) - 175 (6 Riders of Rohan with spears)
Mounted Sergeants (Regiment) - 125 (6 Riders of Rohan with swords)
2 x Mounted Scouts (Troop) - 140 (6 Riders of Rohan with bows)
General on Horse - 130 (Theoden)
Hero on Horse - 60 (Éomer)

Looks good to me!

My original plan was to do all of my Gondor, then Rohan. Now it's looking like it'll be Minas Tirith and the smaller Fiefdoms, and then probably my Dwaves (while finishing off a very small Goblin force of figures that are mostly-painted at the same time) After that it'll be Dol Amroth, which is looking more and more like it'll be a full army onto itself following BA's worthwhile suggestion to use the Numenorans as DA troops - and then Rohan.