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 david choe wrote:
Based on the Fluff. It was suggested that Shaman were around before or during human prehistoric (depends which version of the fluff). The original fluff stated that the Shaman were around millions of years ago. That is not so important. The Shaman always nurture and guide human, we can assume they helped human evolved like teaching us fire or toolmaking or love and peace. The Warp was also a peaceful place. This part must be strongly stated.

From that crux of it... we can assume that the Shaman role is to help humans. If the shaman died, then human will die. You ask me what was the reason they came together, well... the safety would their #1 self preservation and #2 would be to continue helping human.

I think their action was and is always to help and protect human.

Fair enough. I know just the jist of the story and am not an expert on this part of the background. I think trying to psycho analyze the actions and thoughts of thousands of shamans 50,000 years ago (give or take a few millenia) is nearly impossible. So it's conjecture at this point. But I don't think your interpretation is too far fetched.

 david choe wrote:
You want to view the Emperor as the Emperor then go ahead and you want to see him as a tyrant, then go ahead. I never view the Emperor as an Emperor. I see him as the New Man. I understand the New Man's mission and the Emperor is and was just another guise of his. When one of his guise in the past was a tyrant or a messiah, I don't get confuse with the small details in the scale of a few hundred years or even a thousand years of what that guise did... because his mission was beyond that. This hang up on the Emperor of what he did... was only a few hundred years in the New Man's long history.

Regardless of what this "New Man" truly is, he was the Emperor. Whether it is a guise or not doesn't change that it was a part of his being at one point or another. And about the tyrant thing- the true historical meaning of the word was Greek and basically equated to a singular leader. It was not necessarily a bad thing per se, but slowly the idea of a tyranny became remembered as a very bad rule. Anyways- What do you think was the "end state" the New Man was trying to achieve? What form or guise was truly him, and would he ever finally settle on a form to remain?

 david choe wrote:
Is the Emperor dead? I don't think so. However, I have no doubt that there is a Warp god Emperor but he is not yet ready to be reveal. Who is helping the sister? Either the New Man psychic power or the Warp god Emperor (new man doppelgänger ) is doing it.
Why do I think the Emperor is not dead?

Because the current Imperium is not what he wanted. He wanted his Imperium to be based on true science, this is not. When the Emperor choose to die...he will release the shamans souls and the warp god emperor will protect them....may be a new New Man will form or maybe many shamans will come to assist mankind. But the warp god Emperor will show himself and tell the Imperium that this is not the way. Since none of this has happen and it seems like the same gak everyday since 30,000 AD... I assume that the Emperor or the New Man is still sitting there on the Gold Throne plotting and waiting for the right time.

So you believe there is a physical New Man and a warp deity New Man? And if he is more powerful in his warp form wouldn't he think it more prudent to expend all his energy in this form to fight Chaos? What is his physical form doing now that couldn't be done from the Warp?

 Ignatius wrote:


Regardless of what this "New Man" truly is, he was the Emperor. Whether it is a guise or not doesn't change that it was a part of his being at one point or another. And about the tyrant thing- the true historical meaning of the word was Greek and basically equated to a singular leader. It was not necessarily a bad thing per se, but slowly the idea of a tyranny became remembered as a very bad rule. Anyways- What do you think was the "end state" the New Man was trying to achieve? What form or guise was truly him, and would he ever finally settle on a form to remain?

But that has always been my position and point. I keep using the word New Man because the Emperor is just a small guise in his long history as the New Man. The Emperor could be a killer or a tyrant… but the New Man is beyond that. Do you see that. So when I argue that The New Man on the Golden Throne is not a tyrant… he is not a tyrant. He is the New Man taking a guise as the Emperor and is stuck on the Golden Throne… he wouldn’t want people to remember him as that Guise… he had done so much for humanity! It is like if you were Jesus, then Atilla the hun, then Vlad the impaler, MLK, and last was Pol Pot… You don’t want people to remember you as Pol Pot when you know you did good as Jesus and MLK. The New Man has no true form for us reader to know. We don’t know. We know he took 1,000s. I don’t think he will choose any form to remain. Remember… he is the product of 1,000 shaman…The Shaman are the boss. I think the end game is … when the New Man’s mission and goal is completed… the New Man must die and release the Shaman so they can be free as it was always met to be.

 Ignatius wrote:

So you believe there is a physical New Man and a warp deity New Man? And if he is more powerful in his warp form wouldn't he think it more prudent to expend all his energy in this form to fight Chaos? What is his physical form doing now that couldn't be done from the Warp?

You almost got it.

There is a physical New Man (Emperor) on the golden throne.

The Warp deity is the Emperor (a doppelgänger of the Emperor - allies of the New Man). He is almost the same as the New Man, same goals and agenda… but it is not a New Man doppelgänger because mankind didn’t worship the New Man… they worship the Emperor. You understand?

Why is the New Man still at the GT? I guess The New Man is still on the GT because the Warp god Emperor is not powerful enough to take on chaos or his other complicated plan B is not ready for him to step down from the Golden Throne or die. I don’t know. May be … it is about to happen… this is why the GT is breaking. For all we know The warp god Emperor might just give the New Man a boost and resurrect him as a reborn Emperor for the New Man to continue with this guise. We just don’t know yet.

I think it is an exciting times for the Ecclesiarchy.

I just thought of something....
If all of my theory is true....
The New Man is really in trouble because the Warp god Emperor is being worship as the Emperor ... which is a bit of a order freak.. a tyrant. The New Man and the Shaman were not like this, they were free sprit being the Emperor was just a guise and not to be worship as in the Imperial Truth. I think the New Man wanted to create a new religion based on science and peace and love... but got the Emperor because ...he had to do as plan B....... So after the defeat of Chaos (if possible), looks like the New Man and the Shaman might have another fight with the god of Order. ...

The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

I don't think this is true because (as far as I know)... you can't keep the souls in the warp and claim them as your "vortex" in the warp if the Emperor is still not dead. So all the souls and emotions that is creating the Warp god Emperor is another being in the making, but is just like the Emperor... this is why I use the word doppelgänger.

Also, The Emperor is not The New Man true form...all the souls and worshiper of emotions goes to power the Emperor(New Man) doppelgänger - The Warp god of Order or god Emperor. They can not be the same person as the New Man.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

Is there really a difference? In the end he will be an immensely powerful Warp entity. But probably something akin to the Eldar gods than the malevolent Chaos gods.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

Is there really a difference? In the end he will be an immensely powerful Warp entity. But probably something akin to the Eldar gods than the malevolent Chaos gods.

Yes,that is true.

Because this is grim dark... I just think that the Emperor god in the Warp is being worship in the wrong way... so I think the end result is a powerful tyrant god of Order that is just like the Emperor in life... which is not too good in my book. Too bad for man kind... if the New Man had his way... the god that human would be worshiping would be god of peace and love and science.... the harmony god for mankind. The way the Shamans wanted it to be.

 david choe wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

I don't think this is true because (as far as I know)... you can't keep the souls in the warp and claim them as your "vortex" in the warp if the Emperor is still not dead. So all the souls and emotions that is creating the Warp god Emperor is another being in the making, but is just like the Emperor... this is why I use the word doppelgänger.

Also, The Emperor is not The New Man true form...all the souls and worshiper of emotions goes to power the Emperor(New Man) doppelgänger - The Warp god of Order or god Emperor. They can not be the same person as the New Man.

The Emperors souls is strong enough to ward of warp predators, it is not souls that will strengthen him but the worship and adoration from his followers, it is only the dark gods that also crave souls. I think one of the reasons The emperor of mankind didn't want to be worshiped is because it would effect him in some way.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The warpgod is the emperor, his soul in the warp is accumulating the worship of his followers but he cannot ascend because the golden throne that somehow is draining him is also keeping him alive.

If the Emperor finally dies, will the emperor become a new God or a new Chaos god?

I don't think this is true because (as far as I know)... you can't keep the souls in the warp and claim them as your "vortex" in the warp if the Emperor is still not dead. So all the souls and emotions that is creating the Warp god Emperor is another being in the making, but is just like the Emperor... this is why I use the word doppelgänger.

Also, The Emperor is not The New Man true form...all the souls and worshiper of emotions goes to power the Emperor(New Man) doppelgänger - The Warp god of Order or god Emperor. They can not be the same person as the New Man.

The Emperors souls is strong enough to ward of warp predators, it is not souls that will strengthen him but the worship and adoration from his followers, it is only the dark gods that also crave souls. I think one of the reasons The emperor of mankind didn't want to be worshiped is because it would effect him in some way.

True that the Emperor soul is strong. But his soul is made up of 1,000s shaman. The Shaman were Chaos #1 enemy that is not talk about very much anymore.... the Emperor is the last of the Shaman. His soul is the most prized by Chaos... they will eat him. There is no way the Emperor could defend this. This is the reason why the New Man was created... so the shaman could never have to die and be eaten by chaos. Shaman made the New Man to escape Chaos. The only way for the New Man or the Shaman souls to survive is they must have a protector in the Warp. This protector I think is the Emperor warp god which they didn't want to create in this version... but it was better than nothing.


This reinforce the Imperial Truth... the New Man did not want people to worship the Emperor because the New Man didn't want a warp god of the Emperor. The Emperor was just a guise of the New Man and a tyrant one at that. The last thing the New Man wants is a Warp god of Order that is a tyrant and fanatical. I really believe that if all the plans had worked out.. the New Man (Emperor) will issue a dogma of worshiping a god in a shamanistic ways... so they can create a Shaman warp god. Remember the shaman is the New Man.. the New Man do not want to be the Emperor forever. No point in making a Emperor god.

Like you say the emp could not defend himself from chaos, but using humanity as shield, he could buy himself some time.

Tyrant/humble man, they could well be just what was needed at the time. Maybe after 40000 years he's forgotten his original purpose. Everyone know's it doesn't take 40 day's for politician's to start serving their own agenda. 1000 personalities doesn't make for a good anything.

Maybe all the steps he took along the way were just to preserve himself, just like the shaman's. the road to hell and all that. He wouldn't be the first human that wanted to be a god.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the minute he trucked with chaos, to obtain knowledge/science. Was the moment the warp really started paying attention.

The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

the ancient wrote:
Like you say the emp could not defend himself from chaos, but using humanity as shield, he could buy himself some time.

Tyrant/humble man, they could well be just what was needed at the time. Maybe after 40000 years he's forgotten his original purpose. Everyone know's it doesn't take 40 day's for politician's to start serving their own agenda. 1000 personalities doesn't make for a good anything.

Maybe all the steps he took along the way were just to preserve himself, just like the shaman's. the road to hell and all that. He wouldn't be the first human that wanted to be a god.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the minute he trucked with chaos, to obtain knowledge/science. Was the moment the warp really started paying attention.

I'm not sure about this....

The Shaman were people who have lived thousands up on thousands of years and they were content naturalistic and peaceful people. The fluff stated that they help and guide humanity for thousands of years and they themselves seems peaceful and balanced people. From what I read about the shaman, they weren't slaver or vampire or leech or ambitious power seeker like being. They seems to enjoy balance of nature and enjoy their unique power of reincarnation of their souls.

My thoughts on this is that the shaman were human who have special psychic ability and can reincarnate into other humans. To populate more Shaman... they need male and female shaman to produce human baby who is also a new shaman with brand new shaman soul (not other shaman soul who were reincarnated). This is how I think their race is populated.

They are all immortal from the soul. Meaning that the live and die as normal people, but will be reincarnated as another human with their full memory from the past.

When Chaos start eating them... they die permanently .... this is heavy for them.

They can populate more shaman to continue to out live the death rate... but they do not want that. That would means that each of them would only have one human life time.

I don't think The New Man ever forget his purpose. We forget his purpose. The New Man are Shamans... they have no intention to be a conquer or any of this... they have been around more than 50,000 years...I would guess some Shaman who is in the Emperor might be 100,000 years old or more.

Remember that the Emperor is one of Guise of the New Man. This Emperor was only about 5% of the New Man's Guise. The Emperor before the Golden Throne only exist for about 500 - 1,000 years. What I mean by this is ... if you look at Emperor life during the middle ages... (lets pretend he was Vlad the Impalers) and our game and hobby takes place during that period... you would assume that Vlad was his last and final form or he was corrupted with power... but that would be wrong. The New Man took Vlad as a Guise for a short period of his long life to do whatever needed to be done as Vlad... as wrong or evil as we think that was. He did it for his ultimate goal.

It makes no narrative sense for us to assume that the Emperor who is the New Man got corrupt with power... he had too many guise as tyrant with power in his past history.. and all of them were just anther identities for his long mission. The Emperor fit the pattern of just anther character that needed to be play. Everything about the Emperor goes against the character of the Shaman.. I really do not see this as his true self at all. To me, the Emperor is just another guise no different than any tyrant of the past human history.

I don't think the 4 chaos gods forget their number 1 enemy... the Shaman... the very last one. This is why the Emperor must and can not die during 30,000 AD or he would be consume by the gods right away. No chance to be reborn. Now... if there is that Warp god of the Emperor in the Warp... he will protect the Shaman souls or the souls of the New Man or...who you have been calling the Emperor.

Magnus broke the GT along with the human part of the webway. I'd imagine that's why it's not healing him properly.

 Psienesis wrote:
The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

I love that story and I think it really reflect the heart of real life people. RL people with real faith hated the Emperor, while RL atheist agreed with the Emperor. Almost down to the core and it tells us that our real life bias also follows our fantasy fiction.

I think there were false narrative in this story from the author's background... it stated that people needed faith and a god to worship. There are many people and nations that have atheist as the majority in the population and disagree with Uriah. I think China, UK, and France are some of them.

RL atheists don't necessarily agree with the Emperor, no. A certain kind of rabid atheist, who needs to proclaim to the world that they are atheists and that religion is terribad... they might back the Emperor.

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

I love that story and I think it really reflect the heart of real life people. RL people with real faith hated the Emperor, while RL atheist agreed with the Emperor. Almost down to the core and it tells us that our real life bias also follows our fantasy fiction.

I think there were false narrative in this story from the author's background... it stated that people needed faith and a god to worship. There are many people and nations that have atheist as the majority in the population and disagree with Uriah. I think China, UK, and France are some of them.

Personally, I'm an atheist. However, I've got to mention that most of the french population is not atheist I believe: very few of them actually practise a religion, but if you asked them, only about 30% replied they were atheist (I can Source this if you want).
France is one of the most atheist countries in the world though.
Here in France, being "laic" (It's a special concept, but it's basically secularism) is seen as very important.
So everyone might be catholic or muslim or whatever the two main religions in France), but they'd all be so secular you'd never notice, unless they're in the small part of the population that actually practices a religion regularly.

That's been a big debate actually, as the French are all wondering why the jihadists didn't just integrate and become secular like everyone else. the answer is probably economic, but you know, people just seem to turn it into a debate about islam...

I kinda wish it could be debated IRL as easily as in The Last Church

feth it ill bite, Mr choe. It's way ot. but whatever
As far as i remember humans were created and forgotten by the old one's. Left in the dust as failure's in the great scheme of things. We sure got them ey.. ey...
A naturalistic and peaceful people now ,It was a person last time. A naturalistic and peaceful people does not make a galaxy spanning empire. Unless it's a plague. A hungry and thirsty people makes a galaxy spanning empire.

As long as china makes the gak i want, they can think what they like. The poms.. mmkay. No one, i repeat no one, cares what the french think. Stupid Uriah, Should have kicked that bitch to the curb, same as Arthur.

The shamen aren't any different from a davinite's tbh. There's your shamen. Chaos worshippers to the core.

People do need something to worship.

 Psienesis wrote:
RL atheists don't necessarily agree with the Emperor, no. A certain kind of rabid atheist, who needs to proclaim to the world that they are atheists and that religion is terribad... they might back the Emperor.

See that is not a true statement....you are interjecting. I have an atheist friend who is not rabid or anti-religion and agreed with what the Emperor did.

But lets not derail the topic and get into politics of religion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The short story "The Last Church" gives us some insight on the Emperor's inner thought processes.

I love that story and I think it really reflect the heart of real life people. RL people with real faith hated the Emperor, while RL atheist agreed with the Emperor. Almost down to the core and it tells us that our real life bias also follows our fantasy fiction.

I think there were false narrative in this story from the author's background... it stated that people needed faith and a god to worship. There are many people and nations that have atheist as the majority in the population and disagree with Uriah. I think China, UK, and France are some of them.

Personally, I'm an atheist. However, I've got to mention that most of the french population is not atheist I believe: very few of them actually practise a religion, but if you asked them, only about 30% replied they were atheist (I can Source this if you want).
France is one of the most atheist countries in the world though.
Here in France, being "laic" (It's a special concept, but it's basically secularism) is seen as very important.
So everyone might be catholic or muslim or whatever the two main religions in France), but they'd all be so secular you'd never notice, unless they're in the small part of the population that actually practices a religion regularly.

That's been a big debate actually, as the French are all wondering why the jihadists didn't just integrate and become secular like everyone else. the answer is probably economic, but you know, people just seem to turn it into a debate about islam...

I kinda wish it could be debated IRL as easily as in The Last Church

You are right, according to the source.. France is 40% atheist... which is really high and the UK is about 55%. Vietnam is about 90%. What my point was... the writer made that statement from the Priest POV that people needed faith and religion. Which is false.. in RL many many people do not need it at all is my point. I understand that it was just the priest POV, but the writer and many gamers keep using this story as some kind of social commentary and I disagree with the premise. Many people do not give a hoot and prefer there were no religion at all. John Lenon ... Imagine.

@the ancient
Errrm... I don't need anything to worship. I personally find worship a complete waste of time that could be better spent doing something else.

So please don't speak for everybody.

the ancient wrote:
feth it ill bite, Mr choe. It's way ot. but whatever
As far as i remember humans were created and forgotten by the old one's. Left in the dust as failure's in the great scheme of things. We sure got them ey.. ey...
A naturalistic and peaceful people now ,It was a person last time. A naturalistic and peaceful people does not make a galaxy spanning empire. Unless it's a plague. A hungry and thirsty people makes a galaxy spanning empire.

As long as china makes the gak i want, they can think what they like. The poms.. mmkay. No one, i repeat no one, cares what the french think. Stupid Uriah, Should have kicked that bitch to the curb, same as Arthur.

The shamen aren't any different from a davinite's tbh. There's your shamen. Chaos worshippers to the core.

People do need something to worship.

No... human were not created by the Old Ones. I could be wrong, but I'm 85% sure because Old one left the galaxy before human were around.

Even if the Old ones did created human, what does that got to do with anything?

I told you about my example of the New Man as Vlad... You keep viewing the Emperor in a narrow view. If the New Man was any of the great world conqueror (which according to the fluff he was some of them), he did the same thing as the Emperor... just back then on Earth.. it was a smaller scale. But none the less effective with in the premise. The New Man became the Emperor because the game is bigger, the scale is bigger... from one planet to galaxy of planets... you can't be soft. As the New Man guises goes.. there is no different between being the Emperor or Julius Caesar. He ruled with an iron fist and just like his other guises, he will move on when this role as a tyrant is done.

Wow... real smooth with your social skill there.. I'm sure some French gamer are a bit ticked.

People do not need something to worship.. ...

The dumbest part in the Uriah debate is that ... I would have told Uriah.. hey man.. you can keep doing good deeds as you always have and teach people about science... you do not need to pray and learn the BS story of God. You know God was just the Emperor... he tricked you... I mean, I wonder when the Vikings finally got converted to Christianity ... did their temple priest or shaman or whatever insist they stay in their hall and keep worshiping Thor and watch their temple burned? Once you discover that your religion is false ... you have to be a fool or an idiot to continue with the cause. Who are you talking to... you know you are talking to thin air... wake up bitch.

Devil's advocate here. When is the last time anyone as actually seen the emperors body and described in the fluff (in the real stuff preferably, Black library isn't regulated enough)?


If no one or its been 6000 years then we don't really know its deteriorating as there as been no verification.

Majsharan wrote:
Devil's advocate here. When is the last time anyone as actually seen the emperors body and described in the fluff (in the real stuff preferably, Black library isn't regulated enough)?


If no one or its been 6000 years then we don't really know its deteriorating as there as been no verification.

I think I've read about his in the BRB last edition that the Golden Throne is failing by out of universe for the reader.

Yeah the BRB does say its deteriorating but it doesn't actually base that on any eyewitness accounts or anything.

Majsharan wrote:
Yeah the BRB does say its deteriorating but it doesn't actually base that on any eyewitness accounts or anything.

True.... but that is out of universe, which is the most important.

People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

Alcibiades wrote:
...emotions, not belief.

I thought it's the same thing.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
So, the Emperor has been around for roughly 48000 years.

So before he was interred into the Golden Throne he was alive for 40K years...

why is he deteriorating on the throne then?

Whats causing a perpetual to die or die slowly?

1. He's a corpse with a soul inside him
2. The Golden Throne is failing

Alcibiades wrote:
People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

Belief leads to powerful emotions, especially where religion is concerned.

You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

 Swabby wrote:
You know I always thought of the emperor as a militant atheist. This thread has shown me that not only was he never a militant atheist, but how wrong atheists are in the 40k universe.

I now believe that this is a deep flaw in the fluff. The emperor wanted humans to be atheists to avoid belief and thus spawning more chaos-stuff but really he should have just wanted everyone to be emotionless.

Atheists can be just as irrational and full of emotion as their theist brothers.

Indeed.

There's lots of flaws in the "Imperial Truth" from an outside perspective. The main being that humans aren't the only sentient species in the galaxy, so even if they stopped believing in the Chaos Gods, there's plenty of other species out there. Another being that the Emperor didn't seem to be all that anti-theist. After all, there were billions of people on Terra during the GC who were venerating him as a living god, and he did nothing to stop or discourage this practice. Possibly a "better they worship me than something else" philosophy, possibly a "this is what I wanted all along" angle, or maybe even "I'll deal with that later I don't have the time right now" (even though he took the time to go all the way to Monarchia and deal with the Word Bearers... for reasons in which religion is a trapping, not a cause.). And, further, the pursuit of science is the pursuit of knowledge, which is the domain of Tzeentch. So even if you somehow got rid of the Chaos Gods, you'd still be feeding one of them in your quest for knowledge... and if you wanted to make something perfect, then you're now feeding Slaanesh... so in no way was the GC or the Imperial Truth ever going to end the Chaos Gods. What it might have done (possibly) is supplant the Chaos Gods with the Emperor.

Alcibiades wrote:
People believing in the Emperor's divinity in no way turns him into a warp god. The warp is fueled by emotions, not belief.

This does seem like splitting hairs a bit. Faith can be considered a powerful emotion. The definition will vary from person to person, but I think it's futile to say it doesn't count as a strong human 'feel'.