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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






In the officers defense the training involved with the mentally ill and homeless is very much PC and PR related. The reason for so many of them is that a single officer is unlikely to handle such a tense situation.

(For instance, worked with the mentally ill. For a single situation, the more involved/witnesses are better.)

According the LA chief, they had sensitivity training each year along with the above.

However this is LA. If you look in websters for Police Brutality, LAPD is next to it.

Also, this thread made me improve my day. I ignored Smacks. (If I didn't I'd say things that I wouldn't regret and I would get baned.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/04 18:04:02


My mostly terrain and Sons of Orar blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568699.page#6349942
 whalemusic360 wrote:
Alph, I expect like 90 sets of orange/blue from you.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration


I've spend 5 years with the fire department, and while everything that we do was centered around safety we all knew that there was a very real chance that we might not go home to our families after any call. Nobody wanted to die, nobody was planning on dying, but everybody knew that it was a possibility and everybody was still willing to run into that burning building and risk our life to save that of another. We have all gone to funerals of other firefighters that died in the line of duty, and we (and our families) knew that we could be next. But when the tones went off, we got back on that engine and responded.

Nobody wants to die, but we all knew that we may. I might sound callous, but I expect every fire fighter/cop/soldier to be aware (and accepting of) that possibility.

Our job was never to go home to our family, our hope was to go home to our family.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Backwoods bunker USA

My wife operates under the same principle.

Someone tries to get physical with her - run first and run fast. But if she can't run, shoot. Sounds more than fair to me.

I agree that the anti-gun crowd won't like that. And I agree that the anti-gun crowd will try to build a case against exactly that mindset. But that's exactly why they are wrong.

Only someone who's actually been attacked will understand.


That said @nuggz - I can understand and perhaps accept that cops should be held to a higher standard.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them.

There are plenty of people out there who are willing to extort money from you for personal benefit, and who weigh self-preservation very strongly. These people are also known as criminals. If LE expects to be viewed differently from criminals who do basically the same thing but without state-sponsorship and legal legitimacy, they need to accept the fact that they serve the community; the community does not exist for their benefit. If they want to walk around all jocked up on gear and testosterone claiming they have a dangerous job, then let them actually do the dangerous job of protecting the community. As it is, these cases highlight the fact that many are scared children who shoot first and think later, knowing that they'll be protected by the system.



By that logic when someone raises their hand to join the military/police force, they totally disregard their own lives right? Most people I knew who went to Iraq wanted to come home.

You wrote "Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them. "

He wrote "Want." Most the cops and soldiers I know want to get home safely. Yes they swore to do their job and they would give their lives to do so. But, at the same time do you think they're fatalistic and don't want to go home at night to their family? That they'd prefer to die doing their job?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/04 18:00:44


My mostly terrain and Sons of Orar blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568699.page#6349942
 whalemusic360 wrote:
Alph, I expect like 90 sets of orange/blue from you.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 KiloFiX wrote:
My wife operates under the same principle.

Someone tries to get physical with her - run first and run fast. But if she can't run, shoot. Sounds more than fair to me.

I agree that the anti-gun crowd won't like that. And I agree that the anti-gun crowd will try to build a case against exactly that mindset. But that's exactly why they are wrong.

Only someone who's actually been attacked will understand.


That said @nuggz - I can understand and perhaps accept that cops should be held to a higher standard.


Appreciated...It's my hope that some LEOs will approach their work with that mindset. Judging by blind support by the public for LEOs in questionable shootings, on one hand, and blind criticism of LEO performance by the other side, though, it seems like very few people are genuinely interested in holding them to a fair higher standard.

As it is, if an average Joe shoots somebody, he'll likely face life-changing hardship in terms of legal ramifications even if it's 100% justified. Cops shoot somebody, and it's "well at least he went home safe." I'd like to see LE held to a much higher standard of accountability, especially given the circumstances surrounding shootings. I'd like to see accountability for judges as well. If a judge signs off on a no-knock warrant and the SWAT team hits the wrong house, and somebody dies, throw his ass in jail for first degree murder. After all, he planned (premeditated) an armed raid on an innocent person's home. Once we have real accountability, we will start having real law enforcement that we can trust. As of right now, I have about as much sympathy for the guys I watch getting toasted on Syriatube as I do for US LE. Most of the publicized interactions are more along the lines of, "When A-holes collide."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/04 18:05:44


Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Backwoods bunker USA

 d-usa wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration


I've spend 5 years with the fire department, and while everything that we do was centered around safety we all knew that there was a very real chance that we might not go home to our families after any call. Nobody wanted to die, nobody was planning on dying, but everybody knew that it was a possibility and everybody was still willing to run into that burning building and risk our life to save that of another. We have all gone to funerals of other firefighters that died in the line of duty, and we (and our families) knew that we could be next. But when the tones went off, we got back on that engine and responded.

Nobody wants to die, but we all knew that we may. I might sound callous, but I expect every fire fighter/cop/soldier to be aware (and accepting of) that possibility.

Our job was never to go home to our family, our hope was to go home to our family.


Thanks for your service d-usa.

Based on your post, I've rethought my previous statements. I understand "Mission fist, people always" too.

I won't likely be changing my own personal priorities anytime soon, but you're a better man than I and perhaps we should all hope that cops are better too.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Stormwall wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them.

There are plenty of people out there who are willing to extort money from you for personal benefit, and who weigh self-preservation very strongly. These people are also known as criminals. If LE expects to be viewed differently from criminals who do basically the same thing but without state-sponsorship and legal legitimacy, they need to accept the fact that they serve the community; the community does not exist for their benefit. If they want to walk around all jocked up on gear and testosterone claiming they have a dangerous job, then let them actually do the dangerous job of protecting the community. As it is, these cases highlight the fact that many are scared children who shoot first and think later, knowing that they'll be protected by the system.



By that logic when someone raises their hand to join the military/police force, they totally disregard their own lives right? Most people I knew who went to Iraq wanted to come home.

You wrote "Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them. "

He wrote "Want." Most the cops and soldiers I know want to get home safely. Yes they swore to do their job and they would give their lives to do so. But, at the same time do you think they're fatalistic and don't want to go home at night to their family? That they'd prefer to die doing their job?


Yes and no. At least in the military, you swear an oath to defend your country with your life. I don't know much about what LEOs swear to. The point is that the primary consideration is NOT "getting home safe." I'd much rather see a cop hesitate and take a bullet than shoot an innocent person - THAT would be fulfilling his job. That would legitimate the bragging rights. Right now, the heuristic seems to be, "If the cops shot him, he must have been a bad guy. Let's start digging for dirt."

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 KiloFiX wrote:

I agree that the anti-gun crowd won't like that. And I agree that the anti-gun crowd will try to build a case against exactly that mindset. But that's exactly why they are wrong.


And they would be able to point to your post and make a case that you wanted to kill someone and you already said that you are just waiting to "shoot first & ask questions later" without actually worrying if your life is in danger.

I'm not dinging the idea of wanting to defend yourself, including lethal force if needed (I carry), I'm just saying that making a statement that could be interpreted as "I'll kill the next guy that tries to start something" on a public forum might not be in the best interest of gun owners. That's all, didn't mean it as an attack against you or anything like that.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Backwoods bunker USA

 d-usa wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:

I agree that the anti-gun crowd won't like that. And I agree that the anti-gun crowd will try to build a case against exactly that mindset. But that's exactly why they are wrong.


And they would be able to point to your post and make a case that you wanted to kill someone and you already said that you are just waiting to "shoot first & ask questions later" without actually worrying if your life is in danger.

I'm not dinging the idea of wanting to defend yourself, including lethal force if needed (I carry), I'm just saying that making a statement that could be interpreted as "I'll kill the next guy that tries to start something" on a public forum might not be in the best interest of gun owners. That's all, didn't mean it as an attack against you or anything like that.


Actually I said I would run away first.

I'm not spoiling to draw.

If they prevented me from running and wanted to fight then that's an automatic "my life is in danger".

But I get what you are saying. We are actually on the same page.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Stormwall wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of there way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them.

There are plenty of people out there who are willing to extort money from you for personal benefit, and who weigh self-preservation very strongly. These people are also known as criminals. If LE expects to be viewed differently from criminals who do basically the same thing but without state-sponsorship and legal legitimacy, they need to accept the fact that they serve the community; the community does not exist for their benefit. If they want to walk around all jocked up on gear and testosterone claiming they have a dangerous job, then let them actually do the dangerous job of protecting the community. As it is, these cases highlight the fact that many are scared children who shoot first and think later, knowing that they'll be protected by the system.



By that logic when someone raises their hand to join the military/police force, they totally disregard their own lives right? Most people I knew who went to Iraq wanted to come home.

You wrote "Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them. "

He wrote "Want." Most the cops and soldiers I know want to get home safely. Yes they swore to do their job and they would give their lives to do so. But, at the same time do you think they're fatalistic and don't want to go home at night to their family? That they'd prefer to die doing their job?


Yes and no. At least in the military, you swear an oath to defend your country with your life. I don't know much about what LEOs swear to. The point is that the primary consideration is NOT "getting home safe." I'd much rather see a cop hesitate and take a bullet than shoot an innocent person - THAT would be fulfilling his job. That would legitimate the bragging rights. Right now, the heuristic seems to be, "If the cops shot him, he must have been a bad guy. Let's start digging for dirt."


Yes and...? Your point? The keyword in question is "want."

Yes soldiers/Marines do swear their lives on the line. I familiar with the process. However the context of that quote is discussing the want/desire to return home to the family. The way the quote was written made it sound as if the job was put first which, it is honestly but, there is still the gnawing feeling of wanting to return home. Something that was not addressed in the quote I replied to.

The way the block of text had been written was that the urge to return home wasn't their or implied to be non-existent. As if when you swear to become a soldier/cop that suddenly your home and family don't matter.

Edit for clarity: I am not entirely disagreeing with you. I agree that the mission comes first but, you do think of home when on the job. As noble as swearing to defend/protect and serve is, the officer/soldier will try to protect themselves with any means possible if it means returning home in a life or death situation.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/04 18:15:49


My mostly terrain and Sons of Orar blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568699.page#6349942
 whalemusic360 wrote:
Alph, I expect like 90 sets of orange/blue from you.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Stormwall wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Stormwall wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them.

There are plenty of people out there who are willing to extort money from you for personal benefit, and who weigh self-preservation very strongly. These people are also known as criminals. If LE expects to be viewed differently from criminals who do basically the same thing but without state-sponsorship and legal legitimacy, they need to accept the fact that they serve the community; the community does not exist for their benefit. If they want to walk around all jocked up on gear and testosterone claiming they have a dangerous job, then let them actually do the dangerous job of protecting the community. As it is, these cases highlight the fact that many are scared children who shoot first and think later, knowing that they'll be protected by the system.



By that logic when someone raises their hand to join the military/police force, they totally disregard their own lives right? Most people I knew who went to Iraq wanted to come home.

You wrote "Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them. "

He wrote "Want." Most the cops and soldiers I know want to get home safely. Yes they swore to do their job and they would give their lives to do so. But, at the same time do you think they're fatalistic and don't want to go home at night to their family? That they'd prefer to die doing their job?


Yes and no. At least in the military, you swear an oath to defend your country with your life. I don't know much about what LEOs swear to. The point is that the primary consideration is NOT "getting home safe." I'd much rather see a cop hesitate and take a bullet than shoot an innocent person - THAT would be fulfilling his job. That would legitimate the bragging rights. Right now, the heuristic seems to be, "If the cops shot him, he must have been a bad guy. Let's start digging for dirt."


Yes and...? Your point? The keyword in question is "want."

Yes soldiers/Marines do swear their lives on the line. I familiar with the process. However the context of that quote is discussing the want/desire to return home to the family. The way the quote was written made it sound as if the job was put first which, it is honestly but, there is still the gnawing feeling of wanting to return home. Something that was not addressed in the quote I replied to.

The way the block of text had been written was that the urge to return home wasn't their or implied to be non-existent. As if when you swear to become a soldier/cop that suddenly your home and family don't matter.


It should be non-existent in the extent to which it (a) drives decision making for individuals, and (b) drives decision making for administration. The extent to which it infringes upon those processes should be viewed as error or bad form. As it is, this is not the case at all, and that "want" is reflected in poor decision making by LEOs followed up by poor prosecution by administration because "at least he went home safe."

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas



I've been in a great many physical fights - one of which was in jail. I've been shot at on more than one occasion. I've been stabbed twice.


i think its to reconsider your life choices....

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Stormwall wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 Stormwall wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe I'm draconian but I feel like if someone is resisting arrest with force (i.e. fighting with cops), then cops shouldn't really have to go out of their way to try to keep that person alive at the risk of their own safety.

Cops want to get back to their families alive too.


Going to have to disagree with you here...LEOs signed up to "protect and serve." It is the job of Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them.

There are plenty of people out there who are willing to extort money from you for personal benefit, and who weigh self-preservation very strongly. These people are also known as criminals. If LE expects to be viewed differently from criminals who do basically the same thing but without state-sponsorship and legal legitimacy, they need to accept the fact that they serve the community; the community does not exist for their benefit. If they want to walk around all jocked up on gear and testosterone claiming they have a dangerous job, then let them actually do the dangerous job of protecting the community. As it is, these cases highlight the fact that many are scared children who shoot first and think later, knowing that they'll be protected by the system.



By that logic when someone raises their hand to join the military/police force, they totally disregard their own lives right? Most people I knew who went to Iraq wanted to come home.

You wrote "Law Enforcement to PROTECT and SERVE the public, not to get home safe as a primary consideration, and definitely not to kill them. "

He wrote "Want." Most the cops and soldiers I know want to get home safely. Yes they swore to do their job and they would give their lives to do so. But, at the same time do you think they're fatalistic and don't want to go home at night to their family? That they'd prefer to die doing their job?


Yes and no. At least in the military, you swear an oath to defend your country with your life. I don't know much about what LEOs swear to. The point is that the primary consideration is NOT "getting home safe." I'd much rather see a cop hesitate and take a bullet than shoot an innocent person - THAT would be fulfilling his job. That would legitimate the bragging rights. Right now, the heuristic seems to be, "If the cops shot him, he must have been a bad guy. Let's start digging for dirt."


Yes and...? Your point? The keyword in question is "want."

Yes soldiers/Marines do swear their lives on the line. I familiar with the process. However the context of that quote is discussing the want/desire to return home to the family. The way the quote was written made it sound as if the job was put first which, it is honestly but, there is still the gnawing feeling of wanting to return home. Something that was not addressed in the quote I replied to.

The way the block of text had been written was that the urge to return home wasn't their or implied to be non-existent. As if when you swear to become a soldier/cop that suddenly your home and family don't matter.


It should be non-existent in the extent to which it (a) drives decision making for individuals, and (b) drives decision making for administration. The extent to which it infringes upon those processes should be viewed as error or bad form. As it is, this is not the case at all, and that "want" is reflected in poor decision making by LEOs followed up by poor prosecution by administration because "at least he went home safe."


No, I agree with you on that. But, it is human nature to survive normally.

Not to be puny, or waning poetic... but, the term "walking the thin blue line," comes to mind? These discussions are fascinating to me as I might be swapping my degree so I can become a State trooper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:


I've been in a great many physical fights - one of which was in jail. I've been shot at on more than one occasion. I've been stabbed twice.


i think its to reconsider your life choices....


Chicks dig scars.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/04 18:22:42


My mostly terrain and Sons of Orar blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568699.page#6349942
 whalemusic360 wrote:
Alph, I expect like 90 sets of orange/blue from you.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 KiloFiX wrote:
My wife operates under the same principle.

Someone tries to get physical with her - run first and run fast. But if she can't run, shoot. Sounds more than fair to me.

I agree that the anti-gun crowd won't like that. And I agree that the anti-gun crowd will try to build a case against exactly that mindset. But that's exactly why they are wrong.

Only someone who's actually been attacked will understand.


That said @nuggz - I can understand and perhaps accept that cops should be held to a higher standard.


See there's your problem. You need to arm your wife like mine, with a van and advanced tactical training that curbs are merely guidelines, to be ignored if inconvenient, like buildings and cars.

Its bad when you have the body shop on speed dial.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Backwoods bunker USA

 Frazzled wrote:


I've been in a great many physical fights - one of which was in jail. I've been shot at on more than one occasion. I've been stabbed twice.


i think its to reconsider your life choices....


Sadly, had to go where the work was and it took me to some bad areas.
   
 
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