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 jreilly89 wrote:

Why? There is literally no requirement in the rules to paint your models. Why is your enjoyment more important than your opponents?

Why is there enjoyment more important than mine?

Honestly now, i dont give a rats back side if there stuff isnt painted. but the i dont have time to paint but i have all the time in the world to play excuse when asking the question why isnt your stuff painted is just a pet peeve.

If you dont like painting then just say so.

 kingbobbito wrote:
One of the rules of our store is that if you wish to compete in any of our organized events, all models need to be painted. At the end of a game, any models that aren't painted count as casualties, AKA won't count as controlling objectives and unpainted warlord will result in "slay the warlord".

Is this all that uncommon of a rule, or is it reasonable? In general we don't allow proxies in organized events (to avoid confusion and possible trickery/cheating), and our store owner has the rule about painting because a lot of people apparently used to play with unpainted miniatures. The rule is designed to "encourage everyone to paint their models, because a game isn't as good if you're playing against a bunch of grey pieces of plastic".

Do any tournaments have any rules like this, and do you agree with this idea? You're fine to use whatever in casual games and you can still play in events (at a disadvantage, so no one plays with unpainted stuff though).

I kind of like the idea, but I know that a decent number of people go to other stores because of this (there's one about half an hour away, and one an hour and a half away). I mean, of the few times I've been to the other store I've played against tau suits that didn't have any weapons attached but all had different weapons, and against a completely unpainted army of marines that had allies from different chapters.....

Sounds like a reasonable and great idea to me.

Most events I go to require painted models to play as well as WYSIWYG to avoid any confusion.

Around here we dont have a pentalty for no paint but bonuses for paint

Undercoat, basecoat, secondary colour is not difficult to do- although it used to be much easier when Devlan Mud existed.

At the tournaments I've been to there is a three-colour minimum, and also a painting score. There never used to be, and there were very few well-painted (or even above 3-colour) armies. Now the skill level locally is far better, which does make the game much more interesting for most.

For casual games, I don't mind using unfinished models or having them used against me, as long as progress is made over the months. I never used to field an unpainted model, but the second army expanded quickly on me. First world problems at their finest.

I'm not sure I've ever been to am event that outright allowed unpainted models. There are some people who sneak primed models in, and s long as the whole army isn't just black primer, I haven't seen a fuss made.

But, 40k to me is all about models on a table, so in my opinion, there should be some paint effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zed wrote:
Undercoat, basecoat, secondary colour is not difficult to do- although it used to be much easier when Devlan Mud existed.

It's even easier to get to 3 colors now: Army Painter colored primer, quickshade, and then a drybrush. Or, if you're super cheesy, prime the base a different color

Models are so expensive though... I dunno why someone would do that.

It sounded like it was for organized play, so like tournaments and such. If it is for that, then it is very forgiving. If it is just to play at the store at the same time as everyone else, then it is a bit tough.

Some time ago, I decided to play only with painted models and frowned upon those that had the nerve to show up with grey blobs of plasyic. Everyone around me was having fun and I wanted to play, so I imposed on myself an iron discipline and set my eyes on the goal to paint 7-8 miniatures per week to a good TT standart . It worked for a while... and it was stupid. Extremely stupid and I will never put myself through this hell again. In the end, I was totally burned out and couldn't paint for months. I asked myself - Why I am doing this? This is something I do in my spare time and is something that is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. Deadlines? Goals? Discipline?! Those things don't have a place in my spare time, sorry. I love painting, but I am gamer first.

Nowadays, I am more relaxed and would gladly put a grey model on the table , if I want to play with it. And now painting is more enjoyable and I paint whatever and whenever I feel like, instead of doing the chores. As a result my new minis look much better. Playing with painted army is far more enjoyable indeed, but it shouldn't come at a price. Especially , when we come dangerously close to elitism.

 Desubot wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Why? There is literally no requirement in the rules to paint your models. Why is your enjoyment more important than your opponents?

Why is there enjoyment more important than mine?

Honestly now, i dont give a rats back side if there stuff isnt painted. but the i dont have time to paint but i have all the time in the world to play excuse when asking the question why isnt your stuff painted is just a pet peeve.

If you dont like painting then just say so.

Because playing is usually more rewarding than painting in terms of enjoyment. Besides, a lot players have said they hate painting, and people still give them gak about it.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Because playing is usually more rewarding than painting in terms of enjoyment. Besides, a lot players have said they hate painting, and people still give them gak about it.

More enjoyable for gamers not so much for the middle ground or pure painters.

If people are still giving them gak for something like that then they have more problems than just paint snobbery.

 TychoTerziev wrote:
Especially , when we come dangerously close to elitism.

This is the most important aspect of the discussion in my mind. This is an expensive and daunting hobby to get into these days. Seeing the pictures in the codexes and youtube videos and models around you at the game store can be really frustrating for someone with no experience with a brush and no artistic background. Discriminating against these people is not how you keep them invested.

I am all for communities encouraging improvement and an ideal to aspire to. But I think it is better done through rewarding painting with points in your event/campaign/league. Not punishing those who use unpainted models. I think store or community organized hobby days are the best approach. It can be really intimidating only seeing the finished product and comparing it to your first few steps into painting. But if you can see people at work and have them teach you the shortcuts we all relied on when we were terrible it can make painting far less of a chore.

Miniatures are so expensive, why would you buy them to have them sit unpainted indefinitely?
I mean, you might as well just take the time to make your army look half-decent.
I suppose that I don't have a solution, but I just don't understand why someone would be content with using an unpainted army.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Miniatures are so expensive, why would you buy them to have them sit unpainted indefinitely?
I mean, you might as well just take the time to make your army look half-decent.
I suppose that I don't have a solution, but I just don't understand why someone would be content with using an unpainted army.

Same with when people buy a house and then trash it, or buy a car and treat it badly or anything else. House maintenance just isnt every bodies thing to do, as much as I would like my neighbors to mow their lawn frequently. I guess for many, models are a gateway to the game, not the hobby, like buying a car is for traveling, not the hobby.

Or something.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Miniatures are so expensive, why would you buy them to have them sit unpainted indefinitely?
I mean, you might as well just take the time to make your army look half-decent.
I suppose that I don't have a solution, but I just don't understand why someone would be content with using an unpainted army.

Maybe because people just like playing? I know such people. TT wargaming can give you something different than boardgames and hex-and-counter wargames, even without the hobby aspect.

 TychoTerziev wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Miniatures are so expensive, why would you buy them to have them sit unpainted indefinitely?
I mean, you might as well just take the time to make your army look half-decent.
I suppose that I don't have a solution, but I just don't understand why someone would be content with using an unpainted army.

Maybe because people just like playing? I know such people. TT wargaming can give you something different than boardgames and hex-and-counter wargames, even without the hobby aspect.

Wouldn't gaming with a painted army be preferable to using grey plastic though? It's not like 40k is a game focused on balance. People are, at least on some level, are playing for narrative which only suffers from using an unpainted army.
Painting your models isn't only about the hobby, it enhances other facets of the game.

 TychoTerziev wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Miniatures are so expensive, why would you buy them to have them sit unpainted indefinitely?
I mean, you might as well just take the time to make your army look half-decent.
I suppose that I don't have a solution, but I just don't understand why someone would be content with using an unpainted army.

Maybe because people just like playing? I know such people. TT wargaming can give you something different than boardgames and hex-and-counter wargames, even without the hobby aspect.

Yeah, but then just stick cardboard triangles with pictures of your units into bases and save yourself a thousand bucks. Frankly, I would rather play against cardboard triangles than unpainted plastic.


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 jreilly89 wrote:

Because playing is usually more rewarding than painting in terms of enjoyment. Besides, a lot players have said they hate painting, and people still give them gak about it.

For sure, there are people who feel this. I find it amazing, honestly, that such people still exist in 40k, because there are so many models to buy that if you hate painting (and I assume, modelling), it is *awfully* expensive and time-consuming to build. If you love the painting and modelling, on the other hand, the cost is much more reasonable, because of the enjoyment you get out of the hobby.

I mean, how long does it take to put together a Stormraven or Baneblade without even one drop of paint on it? I'd have to absolutely adore the game to go to the effort of assembling one (let alone several like models to make 1850 pts), just to play it, if I disliked the hobby.

Most people who hate painting tend to love assembling. I love assembling/converting. Only recently have I loved painting too.

 Eldarain wrote:

 TychoTerziev wrote:
Especially , when we come dangerously close to elitism.

This is the most important aspect of the discussion in my mind. This is an expensive and daunting hobby to get into these days. Seeing the pictures in the codexes and youtube videos and models around you at the game store can be really frustrating for someone with no experience with a brush and no artistic background. Discriminating against these people is not how you keep them invested.

I am all for communities encouraging improvement and an ideal to aspire to. But I think it is better done through rewarding painting with points in your event/campaign/league. Not punishing those who use unpainted models. I think store or community organized hobby days are the best approach. It can be really intimidating only seeing the finished product and comparing it to your first few steps into painting. But if you can see people at work and have them teach you the shortcuts we all relied on when we were terrible it can make painting far less of a chore.

There is no excuse at all to belittle someone who just doesn't have the most amazing painted army. Model elitism is horrible. If I see that kind of stuff going on, I will go and make it a point to walk over and beat the bully with a wet fish

Besides, we all painted our first model at one point. I still have my first Ral Partha minis painted with six bottles of Testors enamels and a nylon brush that I wouldn't use to apply glue now ^.^ I was just as proud of the crappy-ass blob of a paintjob I managed to do then as I am with anything I do today.


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 Swastakowey wrote:
Most people who hate painting tend to love assembling. I love assembling/converting. Only recently have I loved painting too.

Neat. I didn't know there were many people like that I would suggest just priming it with a tinted primer (or just use Krylon) and giving it a wash with an AP shade. That would be good enough for just about every event I've been to. Not for you, of course, since you enjoy painting now too

lustigjh wrote:
Who's going to want to limit themselves to kill team if they can play a real game?

People who like playing Kill Team?



I'm no seeing the issue here. Many, many tournaments have had 'painted only' policies for decades now. So have a lot of stores that offer gaming space, including (at least historically, not sure if it's still the rule) GW themselves.

If a venue imposes a painting requirement to play at their venue, that's their choice. If you want to play with unpainted stuff, you just play somewhere else.

Painting requirements are a failure in most parts. I can see tournaments, large ones, but nothing locally. Dictating what someone else does with their plastic army manz is quite selfish indeed.

I've been grilled several times as I view war gaming as the hobby first. I've since come into my own with painting, but I always had to chuckle at those condemning people pushing bare plastic, more so when it was towards myself. Usually had a few friends let the individual know I was a competitive mini painter and much prefer making one guy look amazing than painting armies. Each have their merits and I'm truly envious at some of the painters I've met in their ability to jam out above tabletop so fast. But then they've said they could never spend weeks to months on one 28mm unit/mini like I can.

I play other games with much less restrictions to painting requirements these days. I would recommend anyone else in the same environment to do the same. Don't put up with all that.

 Drasius wrote:
Prefered Enemy: Unpainted Miniatures was a thing here for a while in a couple of tournies and it worked well, with people still fielding some stuff that wan't finished, but most fielding fully painted armies. Most people still felt a bit bad about taking advantage of it though, so it went away and many tournies resulted in a flood of grey plastic again.

For pick up games though, playing against the grey marines was and still is just fine.

This!!

Fully painted armies have the 'preferred enemy: unpainted models' rule!
It's so simple i cant beleive i didn't think of it myself!

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Prefered Enemy: Unpainted Miniatures was a thing here for a while in a couple of tournies and it worked well, with people still fielding some stuff that wan't finished, but most fielding fully painted armies. Most people still felt a bit bad about taking advantage of it though, so it went away and many tournies resulted in a flood of grey plastic again.

For pick up games though, playing against the grey marines was and still is just fine.

This!!

Fully painted armies have the 'preferred enemy: unpainted models' rule!
It's so simple i cant beleive i didn't think of it myself!

It's so perfect!

Just wanted to add to the thread that I've also never participated in any sort of organized event that allowed unpainted miniatures. Three-colors and based is typically the minimum requirement for anything fielded.

I like it tbh. I once got an entire 2000 point Necron force from being on-sprue to nicely painted and based in under 10 days just to be able to play in a tourney. I did it within 6, and spent the final days doing little details and improving the work a lot. It was super-fun and my first doing proper assembly-line work.

 Desubot wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Because playing is usually more rewarding than painting in terms of enjoyment. Besides, a lot players have said they hate painting, and people still give them gak about it.

More enjoyable for gamers not so much for the middle ground or pure painters.

If people are still giving them gak for something like that then they have more problems than just paint snobbery.

Touche. To be fair, you're actually a lot more understanding than others. Every once in a while, the "Why unpainted models?" thread shows up, and some of the guys are rather unrelenting in their hate of people who play "grey" marines.

My FLGS had a tournament where painted armies got you extra points. If your army was fully painted, you got to re-roll all misses. That really helped my IG in a couple of overwatches!

 Talys wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because playing is usually more rewarding than painting in terms of enjoyment. Besides, a lot players have said they hate painting, and people still give them gak about it.

For sure, there are people who feel this. I find it amazing, honestly, that such people still exist in 40k, because there are so many models to buy that if you hate painting (and I assume, modelling), it is *awfully* expensive and time-consuming to build. If you love the painting and modelling, on the other hand, the cost is much more reasonable, because of the enjoyment you get out of the hobby.

I mean, how long does it take to put together a Stormraven or Baneblade without even one drop of paint on it? I'd have to absolutely adore the game to go to the effort of assembling one (let alone several like models to make 1850 pts), just to play it, if I disliked the hobby.

One of the guys at my LGS has a full DE army that is entirely unpainted but assembled. It's rather strange, but more power to him.

For everyone worried about painting elitism no, we definitely don't do that sort of thing

Usually once or twice a month we have painting tutorials, and we'll usually pick a random topic to cover on those days based on what anyone wants to know. Going over how best to thin or mix paints, how to highlight, when to use washes, etc. Plus the store owner is a great guy, he'll happily sit down with you for an hour or more to show you how to paint something you're struggling with (how I learned to paint fething robes, the hardest thing to shade on DA and make it look good).

In general though, I mainly just look at painting your models as a common courtesy to guys that care more about the narrative (which is really prominent at my store). It's not a ton of work, and it genuinely is more fun to play against an army that looks nice. Sure, I'll play an unpainted army. But if the following month you show up and haven't painted a single model, and I know that you had more than enough time, I might be a tad disappointed.

Look at it this way. For a second, assume I'm a lazy slob. I don't like personal hygiene, and I feel that I don't have enough time in my schedule to shower or brush my teeth every day. Even though it might only take an hour a week to take quick showers, I tell you that an hour is too much to ask of me. Every time I show up at the store, I reek of pure filth, I'm covered in grease, you can actually smell me across the table. You can easily just ignore it, but it's really obvious the entire time and kind of annoying. Would you be a bit reluctant to hang out with me, maybe ask me why I haven't showered and smell like bum?

Our FLGSs don't allow grey armies. But they will allow unpainted units as long as they are assembled and WYSIWYG. As long as you are making progress on painting them (ie primed one week, a few base colours the next, so on) then you can use that unit. It helps get new units on the table, and also encourages you to paint, without limiting you to excluding a unit or two you just haven't had time to finish up yet.

I personally will at least prime my guys and get the base green on them before I put them on the table, and once again, this is only ever a unit I am working on that I just didn't get painted in time because "oh yeah I have a life and stuff happens", and I have a game scheduled.

This rule is for regular/casual/pick-up games, as well as narrative and campaign events.
Tournaments still have a painting minimum. I'm not sure if it is actually the "3 colours" rule, but basically it has to be pretty much finished. If you haven't finished all the shading on some guys you're good(ie a step not everyone does or can effectively do). If you haven't painted their eyes and guns, better get the brush out before the game starts(this actually happened recently, and yes he got them done, and did a decent job).

 pwntallica wrote:
If you haven't painted their eyes and guns, better get the brush out before the game starts(this actually happened recently, and yes he got them done, and did a decent job).

Feth your eyes, ain't nobody got time to paint those

I will say they're something we've never required, we do more of a three-color rule with some sway room depending on what army you're playing. Most of the time if you have the body painted and the weapon a different color it's good.

I won't lie when I say that eyes are one of the few things I've genuinely skipped, like half of my scouts don't have them because I just cannot do them right. I get them decent on all the models that I care about, but after I did 4 scouts and botched two of those... maybe when I'm a bit better at painting I'll try to make them look less googly.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:
If you haven't painted their eyes and guns, better get the brush out before the game starts(this actually happened recently, and yes he got them done, and did a decent job).

Feth your eyes, ain't nobody got time to paint those

I will say they're something we've never required, we do more of a three-color rule with some sway room depending on what army you're playing. Most of the time if you have the body painted and the weapon a different color it's good.

I won't lie when I say that eyes are one of the few things I've genuinely skipped, like half of my scouts don't have them because I just cannot do them right. I get them decent on all the models that I care about, but after I did 4 scouts and botched two of those... maybe when I'm a bit better at painting I'll try to make them look less googly.

Handy tip.

Paint the eyes first. Paint the white way more around the eye then you need to, then paint black lines starting from above the eye going below the eye (instead of doing a black dot). Then paint the face around the eyes. You will have near perfect eyes every time.

Its actually pretty easy when you get the hang of it, just dont force someone to sit down before a game and it (not only because that is down right dumb)... because it takes planning to do it ahead of the face etc.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Handy tip.

Paint the eyes first. Paint the white way more around the eye then you need to, then paint black lines starting from above the eye going below the eye (instead of doing a black dot). Then paint the face around the eyes. You will have near perfect eyes every time.

Its actually pretty easy when you get the hang of it, just dont force someone to sit down before a game and it (not only because that is down right dumb)... because it takes planning to do it ahead of the face etc.

If I'm painting a single eye, I'm perfectly fine. I love models that have a bionic one because it doesn't matter what the eye looks like, there's nothing to compare it to. When I have to paint two identical eyes next to each other, however, I often end with one slightly different in size, or shape, or different sized pupil, or not quite even with the other. It's especially difficult on the scouts as half of them have a scope a mm from their face, I'm tempted to rip all the heads off and paint them separately.

I do use exactly that technique you described though, it's probably the easiest way to do them. If I could just get both eyes to be looking in the same direction for once