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HairySticks wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

+1
I could see the appeal of a correctly scaled universe ~ but trying to fix pieces purposefully scaled 'wrong' is futile. One would need to start from the ground up and resculpt the entire lot. As pointed out in the thread, the marines arent even the worst offenders, its the human that is being compared to which is far more twisted out of proportions.
And its making the 10 men in a Rhino joke even more ridiculous.

eff a rhino...have you seen a taurox on the table?

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

You are a brave man to speak such heresy!

I'm not a man.

But I will have you know that no heresy escapes my lips, only the words of the Emperor.

And "truescale" was not amongst them.

"While the enemies of the Emperor still draw breath, there can be no peace."

 Gantoris wrote:
"While the enemies of the Emperor still draw breath, there can be no peace."

Are GW's customers the "Enemies of the Emperor?"

MB

Anyone who spreads heresy is an enemy of the Emprah!

 Melissia wrote:

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

You are a brave man to speak such heresy!

I'm not a man.

But I will have you know that no heresy escapes my lips, only the words of the Emperor.

And "truescale" was not amongst them.

They were made in his image. Those puny things gw puts out are not in his image.

I smell a heretic!

 Gantoris wrote:

Ive been consuming a lot of lore lately and cant quite recall the exact source im thinking of, to be clear tho im not suggesting that they have huge amounts of work done or are anywhere near the superhuman level Space Marines are on. The line im thinking of bassically just says that while in transit/training they get some basic genetic enhancements ect. I mean its not a huge stretch to imagine a quick regime of testosterone and other gak like that we could do now if we wanted to make murderous nutters, these are disposable troops so would be cheap of course but point is they aint just citizens pulled of the street and dropped into a fight 1 week later.

Testosterone and steroid supplements are not genetic enhancement. They would also not cause a grown man's skull to grow to be the same size as his ribcage, or cause his hands and feet to inflate to the size of his entire waist (and they would not increase his height). We get it, you like GW's overinflated-balloon-child proportions. Just don't try to argue that they fit the fluff. It's also absolutely unfair to suggest that not enjoying this, as you say, "Comic Book" style is "insane".

Marines are truescaled because they are by far the easiest to do so. The only reason I haven't collected a large Eldar army is their ridiculous proportions, and there are no alternative models (unlike the IG) because Forge World only has an upgrade kit (Corsairs) and a single Aspect that is too heavily loaded with their unique wargear to repurpose into other things (Shadow Spectres). I've entertained the notion of some day getting truescale Eldar commissioned, 3D-printing a master and having it cast up. It would be expensive, though.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
"Truescale" is pointless and isn't even true scale.

You are a brave man to speak such heresy!

I'm not a man.

But I will have you know that no heresy escapes my lips, only the words of the Emperor.

And "truescale" was not amongst them.

They were made in his image. Those puny things gw puts out are not in his image.

I smell a heretic!

Truescale attempts always end up looking goofy . The Emperor does not look goofy. He looks like Turkish Jesus in golden power armor with a flaming sword, which is awesome.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Testosterone and steroid supplements are not genetic enhancement. They would also not cause a grown man's skull to grow to be the same size as his ribcage, or cause his hands and feet to inflate to the size of his entire waist (and they would not increase his height). We get it, you like GW's overinflated-balloon-child proportions. Just don't try to argue that they fit the fluff. It's also absolutely unfair to suggest that not enjoying this, as you say, "Comic Book" style is "insane".

Marines are truescaled because they are by far the easiest to do so. The only reason I haven't collected a large Eldar army is their ridiculous proportions, and there are no alternative models (unlike the IG) because Forge World only has an upgrade kit (Corsairs) and a single Aspect that is too heavily loaded with their unique wargear to repurpose into other things (Shadow Spectres). I've entertained the notion of some day getting truescale Eldar commissioned, 3D-printing a master and having it cast up. It would be expensive, though.

No testosterone/steroids explain the overall body builder look and the exaggerated proportions are a result of a Comic style, combined the create a perfectly reasonable, artistically sound and lore friendly sculpture. Not enjoying the style s one thing but calling it a "flaw" before mutilating the minis is another, one wonders what attracted some people to GWs work in the first place.

Now we are conflating two entirely different issues of "Scale" and "Proportions", as i have argued already the scale vs everything in the game is perfectly fine apart from the Guard (and other humans), you would expect an Eldar or an Ork to be similar height to a marine. To get a bee in your bonnet about the proportions of a fictional Alien race GW made up is even stranger since whatever proportions GW give them is defecto what they look like. Stretching marines into odd mutants does nothing for the proportions and breaks the scale even further, its a lot of work to undo a perfectly reasonable design choice.

 Melissia wrote:
Truescale attempts always end up looking goofy . The Emperor does not look goofy. He looks like Turkish Jesus in golden power armor with a flaming sword, which is awesome.

Amen to that

The Eldar are meant to look elegant. Having enormously oversized heads and hands does not fit this at all. Say what you want about what "GW created", but GW's own artwork certainly does not support your suggestion that the models are what they're actually supposed to look like. Note the heads that are not almost the same size as their entire chest, unlike those of the models.

I did not use the word "flaw". You are arguing as if your aesthetic preference is somehow an absolute fact that the rest of us just fail to grasp. You find them to be "perfectly reasonable". I, and many others, do not.

You said earlier that you prefer the Corvus helmets, which look ridiculous to me. I think of the Mark 7 helmet as one of the most iconic and cool-looking elements of Space Marine design, and I'm not going to start arguing that disagreeing is "insane".

What I don't understand is why you feel the need to justify it in-universe ("they're super tall/buff because of enhancement") while simultaneously saying that it doesn't at all matter because it's just GW's art style. Especially since you repeatedly refer to "heroic scale" as "Comic Book", since certain comic book artists are known for adding more muscles than actually exist on a human body, and exaggeration of musculature is an overall very common thing in comics.

One thing, though. GW can't decide on what "heroic scale" means. This is most commonly seen with Forge World, but even GW main tends to approach truescale with character models (compare the newer Farseer models to Dire Avengers, for instance). The Dark Vengeance Chosen Chaos Marines are also quite a bit taller than standard Marines (they're quite close to truescale, actually), and not just on account of their poses.

This Marine looks great. If the Guardsman standing next to him were not so hideously deformed, it would be perfect. You obviously disagree. That means you have different tastes, not that you are bad and wrong and desperately need re-educated.

Since you seem to think that disliking the models means it makes no sense to like the faction or their design, let me explain it to you. I like the Eldar. They look great. The models, due mostly to their bizarre proportions, do not capture the aesthetic correctly. I want my Eldar to look like this, not like some distorted, bizarrely cartoon-like version that, if exaggerated any further, would be borderline chibi. The design appeals to me. The execution in model form does not.

Game Workshops artwork is done in many many styles by many many artists i would argue that there is but one and only one cannon source for the "style" of GW minis. That source is the sculpting, whatever various styles the artists they have hired to illustrate the fluff over the years the style of minis this mini making company makes stays consistent (tho drained of humor over time).

The look of the Eldar in particular has remained consistent in the exact "comic" style they were conceived in, GW manufacture miniatures and those miniatures are the yard stick for what the official "style" is not the fluff from whatever artist drew an Eldar this week

As for justifying chunky IG "in verse" i was responding to a previous persons comment that the guard look apelike, ive never felt the "Body Builder" look of GW guard was out of place. While this doesn't remove the scale problem between guard and Marines it would further shorten what gap there is. I do agree that with IG there is a small scale problem but contend that its nothing like as bad as people seem to think. Its so small that breaking the perfectly fine scale with every other faction to fix it is madness, hence the "insane" comment.

Again, not trying to make this a personal thing just something that's always confused me and thought would be fun to chat about. Everyone can obviously do with their collection as they please.

 Gantoris wrote:
you would expect an Eldar or an Ork to be similar height to a marine.

Since you say you've been reading the source material a lot lately I would expect you to know better than this.

Eldar are physically similar to humans, although not entirely identical by any means. They have long, elegant limbs and fine ascetic features...

Codex Imperialis, pg 62

A typical Ork stands around the same height as a man.

Codex Orks, pg 6

Then you have this image (although I note your disregard for the artwork) of a Tau, human and space marine.

@Gogsnik -- While I am not opposed to using art at all to judge such things, that dude looks like he's at least 30% taller than the (hunched over) human.

Lore aside, we know exactly how tall a "normal" space marine is -- 2.1m or 7" (from bottom of boot to tip of backpack):



The average height of a 2012 human male from the United Kingom/England is 5'9", or 175.3 cm (source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world ).

So, including the extra height afforded by the backpack an average space marine should be 20% taller than the average adult male. However, that size difference is likely to be smaller, as "adult" includes old people, and people get shorter as they age -- and Imperial Guard are models are of healthy dudes with 6-packs, not wizened old men.

Of course, the one depicted could always be a super-heroic hero!

Either that, or GW lied about 210cm to rip the golden ticket winners off with a smaller stack of miniatures. =]

(Note: I really don't care. I'm just contributing this picture for the fun of it. I think SM are cool as is, and I think modified SM are neat, too.)

Er, not quite? That picture is more likely due to the fact that GW just wants to give away less stuff...

Anyway...

1) The OP REALLY should have chosen a less inflamatory title for this thread
2) ZOMG! People...have different opinions! They...like different things!
3) And

Some people want to re-create this look:



Which is more or less how Space Marines have been described in many, many pieces of GW/BL/FW fiction.

At the end of the day, who cares?

Why exactly should it chap your hide if someone goes through the time/effort/trouble to make their models taller?

Answer: It shouldn't.

 Talys wrote:

I hate that pic of the sm that is used everywhere lol. Ever since someone posted this pic on my thread i notice how out of proportion space marines are when similarly compared to a human.



If you look at that pic. Each square is a "head" worth of measure and its three heads from neck to groin. Space marine models are 1 1/2 and that pic above is 2. This is why they often end up looking squishy. Torsos are completley out of scale/proportion with the rest of the model. This applies to IG as well. Obviously this is the "heroic" scale at work and this is why people feel the need to scale up the space marines. I would love to see forgeworld make some 1:32 scale ig and space marines using the 2.1m height (maybe a bit taller) of the sm as reference.

Gogsnik, these things vary a lot in the lore from source to source but i think most people would agree Eldar (Space Elves) are supposed to be a bit taller than average human height and also that Orks get bigger and bigger as they live and thus the warriors represented by minis would be bigger than average human height. I do not believe this is an unreasonable position, for Tau i will admit an utter lack of knowledge, i left the hobby about 15years ago and they appeared in my absence . I don't totally disregard the artwork (which is often stunning) but i feel that if anything is to be used as a deciding factor concerning GWs "official" style then the minis are the one true source.

 Alpharius wrote:
Er, not quite? That picture is more likely due to the fact that GW just wants to give away less stuff...

Anyway...

1) The OP REALLY should have chosen a less inflamatory title for this thread
2) ZOMG! People...have different opinions! They...like different things!
3) And

Some people want to re-create this look:



Which is more or less how Space Marines have been described in many, many pieces of GW/BL/FW fiction.

At the end of the day, who cares?

Why exactly should it chap your hide if someone goes through the time/effort/trouble to make their models taller?

Answer: It shouldn't.

I have always expected the height of a SM to be between 7 and 8 feet, that fits with any lore i have read and official depiction such as the "Compare yourself to a Space Marine" thingy at Warhammer World. I admit the thread title is a little inflamatory , mostly just to get some views and lively debate going on. I do agree with you 100%, its not a really huge deal and anyone would be a fool to seriously care about it but the reasoning behind it is an interesting topic for conversation no?

So you go from calling people who go through the effort to convert stuff to truescale "insane" to "fools". Stay classy, Gantoris.

 warboss wrote:
So you go from calling people who go through the effort to convert stuff to truescale "insane" to "fools". Stay classy, Gantoris.

What i actually said was "anyone would be a fool to seriously care about it", meaning i am not taking peoples truescaling super seriously just making chit chat :(. You completely misread the meaning m8.

Melissia wrote: Truescale attempts always end up looking goofy . The Emperor does not look goofy. He looks like Turkish Jesus in golden power armor with a flaming sword, which is awesome.

You can't possibly believe this looks goofy..?




Models and images belong to Lamenter over at http://masteroftheforge.com

Cheers,

Bra'tac

Gantoris wrote:
I admit the thread title is a little inflamatory , mostly just to get some views and lively debate going on.

Generally speaking, that sort of thing is definitely frowned upon in polite society.

And even on Dakka Dakka!

bra'tac wrote:

Melissia wrote: Truescale attempts always end up looking goofy . The Emperor does not look goofy. He looks like Turkish Jesus in golden power armor with a flaming sword, which is awesome.

You can't possibly believe this looks goofy..?

Spoiler:

Models and images belong to Lamenter over at http://masteroftheforge.com

Cheers,

Bra'tac

She might - in that she might think it is 'too big' - for either Space Marines in general, or when compared to the rest of the range.

IF GW would have just made their marines standing up straighter and not doing weird demi-squats (!), well, some of this wouldn't be an issue.

Some of FW's HH marines look quite tall due to the fact that they're standing straighter.

 Gantoris wrote:
I don't totally disregard the artwork (which is often stunning) but i feel that if anything is to be used as a deciding factor concerning GWs "official" style then the minis are the one true source

hmmm. Yes, quite. On the tabletop, as a gaming component yes as to retain some semblance of balance (hahahaha balance? In 40k) otherwise taller models maybe at a disadvantage/advantage Los wise. It still doesn't make the models anatomically correct. Unless for some reason the space marines were engineered to have no abdomen then the models are still wrong.

Truescaling isn't soley about making marines taller than ig. Its about correcting proportions. The only way to do it is to either sculpt a new model from scratch to be 28mm high and be correctly proportioned but would still be no taller than a guardsman (and wouldn't look particularly imposing) or you alter the models and correct the anatomical flaws. This ends up being taller than a guardsman model.

The problem still exists that the guard models are anatomically broken. Again the 2 options apply. You sculpt one from scratch or you alter the current model. I've never seen it done probably because people would have brain aneurisms because they would be taller than marines.

I'm currently making plans to convert some 1:32 ww1 minis to 40k because I want to make some realistic soldiers bristleing with gear which U just can't do on an if model cos all there equipment is the size of a mans head!

Lol @ this thread.

There are plenty of "insane" things people do in this hobby according to other people. Who cares? I for one don't care about "true" scale (not actually true because Space Marines are fictional lol and also not true because as stated everything in the game is proportioned out of whack) *but* there are plenty of things I don't care for in the hobby that others love. Heck, honestly, anything that gets more people converting and using greenstuff and what not is a win IMHO.

Oh for the love of ...not the golden ticket picture...at least the first five pages of the golden ticket giveaway thread were almost all bitchin' about what "GW says the height of space marine is"

My problem with lameter's image is that the over all body proportions seems a little too thick for me and the head seems a little small, but that's my personal opinion. It's certainly far better than what I can do, and I have no desire to make anything truescale.

 bra'tac wrote:

Melissia wrote: Truescale attempts always end up looking goofy . The Emperor does not look goofy. He looks like Turkish Jesus in golden power armor with a flaming sword, which is awesome.

You can't possibly believe this looks goofy.

Yuck.

Yes, I can. And it does.

Again, opinions and all that...

Great thread, there is just a ton of information getting thrown around in here, subscribing.

I really like the way the Space Marines look, even as they are right now. The one thing that does irritate me though, is that they are just not big enough when you see an Astartes model next to an Imperial Guard model. So yeah, the scale is just plain off, at least as outlined in the lore and novels. I'm really not sure how they could "fix" it now though, this late in the game. I would be horrible to feel the need to replace ALL of your models because a new series came out that was scaled better..../shudder.

 Alpharius wrote:
Again, opinions and all that...

people do seem to have a tendency to write their posts as if what they are saying is a fact, and not their opinion...
the fact is, opinions vary a lot across such a wide spectrum of hobbyists...
for example, i have not agreed with a single thing that i have seen Melissia post in her entire five years on here, which in itself is pretty impressive...
we see things from the opposite ends of the spectrum...
different strokes for different folks...

personally, that piece of artwork from the Tau Codex is always how i have invisioned Space Marines to be...
in the fiction, the Guardsman's perspective has pretty much always been that Space Marines are giant gods of war astride the battlefield...
if they were the same size as a Guardsman, i don't think that the Guardsman would be so impressed...

i think "true scale" looks awesome when done well...
i will definitely have a go at it one day...
as the models come out of the box, i definitely wouldn't put a Cadian, or a Catachan, next to a Space Marine in a diorama...
it just doesn't give the right impression of the size of a Space Marine, to me...

alone, or next to an Ork Nob, a Space Marine looks just fine, as far as i'm concerned...
next to a Cadian or Catachan, not so much, but i think that FW's Elysians do a better job of representing the size difference...
anyway, i think that most people can agree that the scale is out of whack all through the GW model ranges, so there is not really any way to say who is right, and who is wrong...

cheers
jah

 Gantoris wrote:


...supposed to be a bit taller...

A bit taller is not 7-8 feet

the warriors represented by minis would be bigger than average human height.

It is well established that the average ork [boy] stands roughly the same height as a man and as such, the average ork model should be the same height as a man not 7-8 feet. The metal boss model I have in front of me stands 39mm or 8 feet tall and yet a space marine model stands no more than 32mm or 6 feet 6 inches a clear discrepancy; even more so with a Rogue Trader space marine who stands a mere 27mm high.

The stock miniatures are a very poor metric by which to judge the relative sizes of the things they represent as clearly they don't do that job very well. Even disregarding all the source material beyond 'space marines are giants compared to ordinary humans' the models fail to accurately portray this. Since shrinking a model is very difficult then adding height to a space marine model is a legitimate attempt to make a space marine look how he should look, which is much taller than a regular human model; and also in keeping with the established idea of regular elder and orks also being approximately the same size as a regular man.

I guess in my case a big part of it is being a bitter hate filled old man! . The proper iconic "look" of Space Marines was always about the minis first when i were a wee lad, i didn't read to much fluff until i was older i just played with Space Crusade and HeroQuest. I have a nostalgic love of way GW sculpt and design their products but i guess i can see why slightly younger generations can have an averse reaction to the minis. If your coming the the hobby after starting with Lore, Video games and Artwork i can see how the style of the miniatures may not match up to your pre conceptions of a Space Marine.

Er, I started 40K right around the transition from Rogue Trader and 2nd - and I'm a huge True Scale fan!