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strike squads are in fluff the unit the GKs send in first to secure the beach head etc. problem is that cause GKTs can also take teleport homers, why not just use GKTs in that role? if Strike Squads all had teleport homers as a unique peice of war gear they'd have a better place. barring that give strike squads Scout.

I wouldnt engage in conversation with Pozy, hes the type of person the OP was referring too, unsubstantiated hate.

The fluff may be a bit silly, but the reason you see the same units from the GK codex pop up is because the other units really arent worth taking in our 7th ed codex.

Loss of psybolt hurt our vehicles and even troops to some degree, salvo psycannons hurt power armor GKs. Terminators are still terminators. Dreadknights are one of the few units to get better.

BrianDavion wrote:
strike squads are in fluff the unit the GKs send in first to secure the beach head etc. problem is that cause GKTs can also take teleport homers, why not just use GKTs in that role? if Strike Squads all had teleport homers as a unique peice of war gear they'd have a better place. barring that give strike squads Scout.

I've said before that giving Strikes the Scout USR would solve every supposed problem they currently have, while also letting them function in-game in a way that's very close to their background...
That pre-game move could be used to help set-up an instant spearhead for teleporting down Termies/whatever, or else they could come in from their opponent's rearward flank and set-up some solid firepower including those oft lamented Psycannons in some tricky areas.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I wouldnt engage in conversation with Pozy, hes the type of person the OP was referring too, unsubstantiated hate.

The fluff may be a bit silly, but the reason you see the same units from the GK codex pop up is because the other units really arent worth taking in our 7th ed codex.

Loss of psybolt hurt our vehicles and even troops to some degree, salvo psycannons hurt power armor GKs. Terminators are still terminators. Dreadknights are one of the few units to get better.

Psybolt under its last incarnation made absolutely 0 sense. If it were to stay/comeback, it should have some kind of added effect vs. Daemons & Psykers. (perhaps granting something like Shred or Rending vs. those specific targets?)
But +1S because... "mind bullets" was frankly utterly stupid. Ditto with Psyflame.

Arguably Salvo as a rule needs some work, but that said, PA Psycannons aren't quite as woefully useless as the vocal minority claim. Interceptors who can T1 shunt 30" to pretty much wherever the damn well please can get those bad boys easily staring down the rear and/or side armour of vehicles.
Strikes can still Deep Strike, (into terrain for added bonus), or else use cheap transports to get set-up and ready to lay down some hurt by T2/T3 at the latest.


The only time the codex really becomes nothing more than 'Codex: Dreadknights + allied friends' is if you're aiming purely for flat-out "Tournament" optimisation. And arguably, every single army in the game becomes similarly limited when playing such a game.

how to fix salvo? make it only reduce max shots not max range when moving...BINGO!

Salvo should be that you get the higher amount of shots if you didn't move, effectively a heavier version of Rapid Fire. The current incarnation of Salvo is useless.

SJ

I dont see the point of changing it, the assault 2 or heavy 4 worked just fine,

It was elegant, but GW obviously wanted to step away from multiple profiles.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It was elegant, but GW obviously wanted to step away from multiple profiles.

They're giving us mixed messages since Conversion Beamers still have multiple profiles.

changemod wrote:
Oh, and it's also the only army to encourage a single one true paint job that's drab grey, so there's that too.

That's unfair. GK are super ornate models. If the people you play with choose to just paint then grey, they would probably paint ultramarines all blue or blood angels all red

I am relatively new to 40k. I have only played against GKs on a few occasions, and really, it wasn't cheese, just no variety, only a few viable units, if anything its the opposite. I think that when people see this they immediately think spam and cheese. I think thats where the hate is coming from

The irony is that GK players can take one each of three units ,and two DKs, and get accused of spamming. Because two of the same unit means spamming these days, I guess.

SJ

I have another thread where I proposed changes to round out the Grey Knight Codex (as a hypothetical to make all of the units equally viable, and assuming that other codexes recieve similar fixes), yet a couple individuals are stuck on the idea that if the unusable units were fixed that it would make the Codex over-powered.

As it stands, the Grey Knights lose as many games as they win, and only field a small portion of the units competitively. So as long as fixing the other units doesn't make them more powerful than the units currently being used, it would add diversity, but not overt power. The biggest advantage it would give would be one that most codexes already have, which is the opponent wouldn't know exactly what your bringing and what tactic you're going to try just by glimpsing the codex.

Draigo-star (usually with allies) is called too uber, yet other codexes have the same. Multiple Dreadknights is complained about, yet other armies have no qualms about spamming Drop Pods, or Fliers, or Daemonprinces or even spawning lists that spawn additional Daemons or Tyranids.

Some individuals just seem to have an irrational fear and hatred of the Grey Knights.

 Bill1138 wrote:
I have another thread where I proposed changes to round out the Grey Knight Codex (as a hypothetical to make all of the units equally viable, and assuming that other codexes recieve similar fixes), yet a couple individuals are stuck on the idea that if the unusable units were fixed that it would make the Codex over-powered.

Every unit in the codex is currently quite "usable."
Just because like every other codex, Grey Knights get whittled down to a handful of optimised units when going full-on 110% "Tournament" competitive is no reason to think you only ever have just 3-4 things to choose from.

 Bill1138 wrote:
As it stands, the Grey Knights lose as many games as they win, and only field a small portion of the units competitively. So as long as fixing the other units doesn't make them more powerful than the units currently being used, it would add diversity, but not overt power. The biggest advantage it would give would be one that most codexes already have, which is the opponent wouldn't know exactly what your bringing and what tactic you're going to try just by glimpsing the codex.

A 50/50 win/loss rate is actually the definition of "well balanced."

Again, stop looking at things from only a narrow definition of what's the "most competitive". All armies are equally limited under such a field. Codex Marines for example may as well just become 'Codex White Scars & Iron Hands + occasionally Tiggy.' However, if you brought everything else up to the level of Scars Grav Bikers & IH's Dev Cents, the Vanilla codex would be broken as hell!
Same deal for Grey Knights. If you bring for example Purgations up to the same level as Dreadknights, (with most suggestions being to give the guns +12" range AND guaranteed Perfect Timing), Purgation Squads are now god mode, able to pretty much point and delete most anything they want with better Psycannons and cover being completely pointless.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Draigo-star (usually with allies) is called too uber, yet other codexes have the same. Multiple Dreadknights is complained about, yet other armies have no qualms about spamming Drop Pods, or Fliers, or Daemonprinces or even spawning lists that spawn additional Daemons or Tyranids.

Please, there's just as many, and typically a lot more complaining about the likes of Wave Serpents, Grav Biker lists, 'uber Centstars, Wave Serpents, Riptides, 'Nids flying circus, Wave Serpents, Daemons in general... did I mention Wave Serpents?!

 Bill1138 wrote:
Some individuals just seem to have an irrational fear and hatred of the Grey Knights.

Right, because there's never, ever been community wide outrage & hatred directed at Daemon or Eldar players...
(like the mass cries & wails of despair that DoC would auto-win every game ever unless people agreed to ban the Grimoire, limit Summoning into non-existence and cap the army to 12 WC's - THAT kind of irrational fear & hatred?!!)

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The irony is that GK players can take one each of three units ,and two DKs, and get accused of spamming. Because two of the same unit means spamming these days, I guess.

SJ

I think around the start of 7th spaming changed its meaning from army has 5+ of it, someone takes 1+ of a good unit. I seen people say that cent star are being spamed when unless someone is using IF as ally there is no way to get more then one unit.

All armies are equally limited under such a field

tell me which army plays with 4 models other then GK? even SW use more, just because they have access to pods.

I don't get why so much venom for GK. With all that 2+, Raiders would be better.

On a more serious note, its more:
1) Monobuild. With such a tiny codex, its hard to avoid. Relatively weak internal balance just further sucks the life out of it.
2) Dreadknight. Not alone in the too-good-at-everything department, not even the craziest offender, but still pretty dumb. Designed to make half your list almost irrelevant. And taken often, and in multiples.
3) WC Spam. Holy crap.

Not the most broken Dex, surely. But it does certain things rediculously.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
I have another thread where I proposed changes to round out the Grey Knight Codex (as a hypothetical to make all of the units equally viable, and assuming that other codexes recieve similar fixes), yet a couple individuals are stuck on the idea that if the unusable units were fixed that it would make the Codex over-powered.

Every unit in the codex is currently quite "usable."
Just because like every other codex, Grey Knights get whittled down to a handful of optimised units when going full-on 110% "Tournament" competitive is no reason to think you only ever have just 3-4 things to choose from.

Virtually every other Codex can field multiple strategies, so their opponents can't list-build to counter them, just by knowing their Codex. That isn't the case for the Grey Knights. If we don't Deep Strike or Shunt tons of Interceptors and Dreadknights in to the same effect, we are sunk. It isn't hard for most armies to list-build to defend against that.

Virtually every unit being a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, does not work. Every unit is too similar and not powerful enough at anything, and the Grey Knights need some of their units to diversify and specialize so they can measure up to other codexes specialized units (shooty units out shoot us, fighty units outfight us, and where we pay more for a unit that can do a bit of both, other factions may have twice as many models, with back lines that obliterate at range, and a front line we can't match in close combat.

 Bill1138 wrote:
As it stands, the Grey Knights lose as many games as they win, and only field a small portion of the units competitively. So as long as fixing the other units doesn't make them more powerful than the units currently being used, it would add diversity, but not overt power. The biggest advantage it would give would be one that most codexes already have, which is the opponent wouldn't know exactly what your bringing and what tactic you're going to try just by glimpsing the codex.

A 50/50 win/loss rate is actually the definition of "well balanced."

Again, stop looking at things from only a narrow definition of what's the "most competitive". All armies are equally limited under such a field. Codex Marines for example may as well just become 'Codex White Scars & Iron Hands + occasionally Tiggy.' However, if you brought everything else up to the level of Scars Grav Bikers & IH's Dev Cents, the Vanilla codex would be broken as hell!
Same deal for Grey Knights. If you bring for example Purgations up to the same level as Dreadknights, (with most suggestions being to give the guns +12" range AND guaranteed Perfect Timing), Purgation Squads are now god mode, able to pretty much point and delete most anything they want with better Psycannons and cover being completely pointless.

The BEST units in our codes are balanced decently with other codexes. That doesn't mean our other units aren't crap. The Codex needs to be balanced internally as well as externally, Bringing up the weak units to match the strong ones rounds out the Codex, making all of the units equally viable. Other Codexes besides the Grey Knights would benefit from this as well.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Draigo-star (usually with allies) is called too uber, yet other codexes have the same. Multiple Dreadknights is complained about, yet other armies have no qualms about spamming Drop Pods, or Fliers, or Daemonprinces or even spawning lists that spawn additional Daemons or Tyranids.

Please, there's just as many, and typically a lot more complaining about the likes of Wave Serpents, Grav Biker lists, 'uber Centstars, Wave Serpents, Riptides, 'Nids flying circus, Wave Serpents, Daemons in general... did I mention Wave Serpents?!

If the Codexes were fixes and rounded out instead of deliberately leaving them broken, this wouldn't be a problem.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Some individuals just seem to have an irrational fear and hatred of the Grey Knights.

Right, because there's never, ever been community wide outrage & hatred directed at Daemon or Eldar players...
(like the mass cries & wails of despair that DoC would auto-win every game ever unless people agreed to ban the Grimoire, limit Summoning into non-existence and cap the army to 12 WC's - THAT kind of irrational fear & hatred?!!)

Sensationalizing much? Grey Knights break even at best, and any suggestion that would make the codex more fun to play, and to play against, gets shouted down by people like you. And I'm not saying this as a slur against you, you actually ended your post with double exclamation points. And I've seen more complaints about the Grey Knights being a mono-build from their opponents than I have from the players. It gets boring if you know your opponent is going to use the same tactic every time, and you can refine your defenses to completely shut him down.

It's one thing to hate an army if it's winning every game, but if they just manage to break even, then yes, I would call that irrational.

If there was any question, Experiment 626 is exactly the type of person I was referring to for the topic of this thread.

Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!

SGTPozy wrote:
Woah, no need to personally attack Experiment 626!

Was it an attack? I suggest 40k could be better balanced all around, and make a thread to discuss how a faction I am more familiar with could be improved, and he shows up to attempt to shut down the conversation, which was flowing smoothly until he showed up.

He then jumps over to my other thread regarding the malevolent hatred some people have for the Grey Knights, who want them to be nerfed futher when they already aren't winning disproportionately, and he pretty much does the same.

Could you explain why I'm in the wrong and he is not?

However anyone goes about attempting to do that, please keep in mind the rules of this site, especially Rule #1 - thanks!

You're in the wrong because you singled him out and said that he "is exactly the type of person I was referring to for the topic of this thread."

You attacked him personally saying that he is the type of person that you are complaining about but you cannot say that as how do you know this? You've read two of his posts and because his view is different to yours then he is automatically this type of person?

How can he be in the wrong for having a different view? Sure, people might hate him for it (like many Grey Knight players do towards me) but it doesn't make him in the wrong.

Is there a club on here I'm not a part of? No one said anything against this guy.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I wouldnt engage in conversation with Pozy, hes the type of person the OP was referring too, unsubstantiated hate.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Is there a club on here I'm not a part of? No one said anything against this guy.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I wouldnt engage in conversation with Pozy, hes the type of person the OP was referring too, unsubstantiated hate.

People don't care when people are attacking me

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only time the codex really becomes nothing more than 'Codex: Dreadknights + allied friends' is if you're aiming purely for flat-out "Tournament" optimisation. And arguably, every single army in the game becomes similarly limited when playing such a game.

So "the only time this is an issue is when you're not handicapping yourself on purpose"? Thanks for proving our point, I guess?

The fact that this is also the case with other Codices does not mean that it's not a problem. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Just wait until 8th edition drops and Eldar and Tau are nerfed to hell and the next group is all complaining. I hope Orks become the new OP next!

 luky7dayz wrote:
Just wait until 8th edition drops and Eldar and Tau are nerfed to hell and the next group is all complaining. I hope Orks become the new OP next!

They've already been through one edition change that nerfed them, and they're still really good.

Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.

Depends, if the edition change makes melee more powerful relative to shooting somehow, the Wave Serpent won't be as egregiously bonkers as it currently is.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.

Depends, if the edition change makes melee more powerful relative to shooting somehow, the Wave Serpent won't be as egregiously bonkers as it currently is.

I'm assuming that never happens. They need to nerf melee some more so Xeno players can keep telling me how awesome grenades on marines are.

Martel732 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar needs a codex change, not an edition change.

Depends, if the edition change makes melee more powerful relative to shooting somehow, the Wave Serpent won't be as egregiously bonkers as it currently is.

I'm assuming that never happens. They need to nerf melee some more so Xeno players can keep telling me how awesome grenades on marines are.

It doesn't matter what xenos have when you're playing the best drop pod army (Blood Angels).

Given Eldar seem to have had just one bad edition, the chances of the, being nerfed in 8th seem remote.