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I'm not accusing anyone here of this, but I've seen a bunch of people gleefully deriding Grey Knight players who express frustration or dismay at 7th Edition's treatment of their Codex. We're all playing the same game, and GW has raised each faction high, only to smash it down again, so I would think that there should be some level of sympathy for the latest victims, rather than making them the "whipping boy". As best as I can tell many people project everything they don't like about GW onto the GK, and that really isn't fair.

As I see it, if you ignore all other codexes completely, focusing only on the Grey Knights, the 5th edition codex had a very good internal balance. It wasn't perfect. Brotherhood Champions fell short, and Crowe was a liability, only taken to make the epic Purifiers Troops. You could build a list around any unit and make it viable. Some were better than others, but choosing one over another wasn't sacrificing having a chance to win for the sake of fielding certain models.

Clearly, there wasn't a balance between the Grey Knights and other Codexes. At the end of 5th the Grey Knights were grossly overpowered, thus beginning the long period of power-creep in the codexes, bringing them up to the Grey Knights' level. Some Codexes even surpassed the Grey Knighs. But somehow people held on to the idea of the Grey Knights being over powered, and regardless of how many GK losses they witnessed, each time they saw a GK victory, they would say it was because the Grey Knights were over powered (at least that's how it was at my local gaming store). But then 7th edition came.

I'm not going to go into details, but to "balance" the game, Games Workshop destroyed the Grey Knights internal balance instead of giving the other codexes the same sort of balance the Grey Knights had enjoyed. Grey Knights have it rough, and it doesn't reflect well on the gaming community when other 40k players show such contempt for players who chose the Grey Knight faction simply for the crime of playing that faction.

Again, I'm not blaming people here, but I needed to vent to someone.

Don't look at me, I'm not complaining about power levels, I'm complaining that I need four Codexes to run the army I built under the 3e Daemonhunters book these days.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Don't look at me, I'm not complaining about power levels, I'm complaining that I need four Codexes to run the army I built under the 3e Daemonhunters book these days.

GK, Inquisition, what else? Possibly Assassins?

GKs have a few issues right now, first off all people who played "Codex: Cortez" obviously no longer could really play GKs (that said as a GK player I 'm happy the focus has been shifted strongly onto Grey Knights)
The power units have certinly changed. personally as a GK player my only issue with the codex as it stands is some units are great, but others are pretty worthless. with such a thin 'dex in comparison to many others, GKs to have varity on the table top do need to ensure all selections are equally useful. Purgation squads right now REALLY need something to make them worth while. as right now they're a "might as well not be in the codex" level choice.

right now GKs need eaither more options, or we need some of our "bad options" (really only purgation squads) to be made a bit better. I'd give Purgation squads the option to declare firing skyfire and call it a day. that'd make purgation squads the GKs "go to" for dealing with flying circus lists.

 Happyjew wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Don't look at me, I'm not complaining about power levels, I'm complaining that I need four Codexes to run the army I built under the 3e Daemonhunters book these days.

GK, Inquisition, what else? Possibly Assassins?

Assassins and MT for my BS4 Stormtroopers.

as I said the only complaint I hear from GKs is how the codex pretty much results in all our armies looking the same, with 1-2 Librarians, 2 Dreadknights, and assorted terminators.

BrianDavion wrote:
GKs have a few issues right now, first off all people who played "Codex: Cortez" obviously no longer could really play GKs (that said as a GK player I 'm happy the focus has been shifted strongly onto Grey Knights)
The power units have certinly changed. personally as a GK player my only issue with the codex as it stands is some units are great, but others are pretty worthless. with such a thin 'dex in comparison to many others, GKs to have varity on the table top do need to ensure all selections are equally useful. Purgation squads right now REALLY need something to make them worth while. as right now they're a "might as well not be in the codex" level choice.

right now GKs need eaither more options, or we need some of our "bad options" (really only purgation squads) to be made a bit better. I'd give Purgation squads the option to declare firing skyfire and call it a day. that'd make purgation squads the GKs "go to" for dealing with flying circus lists.

um. Purgation squad, If that is the one that comes stock with cleansing flame I greatly disagree

Mono-build is the problem, because of that they say its cheese... when it IS the only viable build.

-Dreadnaughts need to be cheaper
-Purgation Squads need longer ranged weapons
-All the HQs (barring the Libby) need to be cheaper
-All PAGK (barring Purifiers and those need deepstrike) need something that actually makes up for their price
-Deepstrike as a mechanic needs a overhaul

 raiden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
GKs have a few issues right now, first off all people who played "Codex: Cortez" obviously no longer could really play GKs (that said as a GK player I 'm happy the focus has been shifted strongly onto Grey Knights)
The power units have certinly changed. personally as a GK player my only issue with the codex as it stands is some units are great, but others are pretty worthless. with such a thin 'dex in comparison to many others, GKs to have varity on the table top do need to ensure all selections are equally useful. Purgation squads right now REALLY need something to make them worth while. as right now they're a "might as well not be in the codex" level choice.

right now GKs need eaither more options, or we need some of our "bad options" (really only purgation squads) to be made a bit better. I'd give Purgation squads the option to declare firing skyfire and call it a day. that'd make purgation squads the GKs "go to" for dealing with flying circus lists.

um. Purgation squad, If that is the one that comes stock with cleansing flame I greatly disagree

nope those are purifiers squads. a Purgation Squad is the one that can take up to 4 special weapons and is supposed to be the "GK devestrator equivilant"

The previous codex allowed you to take basically anything and have a playable army. The current codex is made up of mostly terrible or mediocre units, with a few gems mixed in. Simple as that.

 Quickjager wrote:
Mono-build is the problem, because of that they say its cheese... when it IS the only viable build.

-Dreadnaughts need to be cheaper
-Purgation Squads need longer ranged weapons
-All the HQs (barring the Libby) need to be cheaper
-All PAGK (barring Purifiers and those need deepstrike) need something that actually makes up for their price
-Deepstrike as a mechanic needs a overhaul

Personally, I don't know if I agree with all of your suggestions. The dreadnaught being cheaper does not counter the fact that we have things in our army that do its job better. If we could upgrade it to have skyfire, the the double autocannon dread would make a comeback and then would possibly be worth fielding since we have no other anti-air beyond a Storm Raven.

I would suggest just making the Puragation Squad Relentless so they can fire the Psycannon while following the rest of the army and still be useful. It would also give us a platform to use the Psilencer as they could fire it at full BS and move. The lack of range in our army is one of the weaknesses that we should have by design. We get very overpowered armies when you start removing all of the weakness, or at least make them feel all similar in play style. I would also not mind a option to not have them with Force Swords to start with, as we end up paying for the Sword, and then paying to get rid of it.

I don't play much with HQs other than the Librarian and occasionally Crowe (for fluff reasons with a mostly purifier list), but I would ask that they instead give us a tactical reason to bring them, instead of a points decrease since the Librarian will most likely be one of our cheapest HQs no matter what and is just so good.

On the topic of PAGK, we have already talked about the problems with Puragators, Interceptors are totally fine (and have their gimmick in the Shunt move), and Purifiers are pretty good too (on a side note, though it makes no sense fluff wise for Purifiers to not be able to Deep Strike, from a game balance view point I can see why they should never get it. Being able to potentially drop 2-3 min squads of Purifiers turn one and Alpha Strike with Cleansing Flame and Incinerators for around 400 points would be impossible to balance. I can hear the cries of cheese form here). That leaves the Strike Squad, which is only lackluster do to the other things in our codex being able to do the same thing better. If anybody has a thought on a gimmick or ability to make them worth considering (beyond a cheap min troop for a NSF), I would love to hear it.

I don't know what you mean by a overhaul of Deep Strike. I have no complaints about it or how it works, but I would love to hear your issues or what you would like to change.

Just my thoughts, but I would love to see what other people would like changed (beyond strictly breaking the units or making them stupidly cheap)

Imagine a world where Drop Pods can all drop Turn 1. That's why a lot of people have hate for Grey Knights. That and mass Psychic/Invuln shenanigans.

Imagine a Space Marine codex that contained the following units:

Librarian
Captain

couple of named characters

Tacticals
Sternguard
Assault Marines
Terminators
Elite Terminators
Devastators

Rhino
Razorback
Dreadnought
Super Dreadnought
Land Raider (Phobos/Crusader/Redeemer)
Stormraven

and thats the entire Space Marines codex. Thats roughly what the GK codex is right now - a 4th edition space marine codex in terms of unit variety. Actually I believe the 4th edition SMurfs had more units.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Imagine a Space Marine codex that contained the following units:

Librarian
Captain

couple of named characters

Tacticals
Sternguard
Assault Marines
Terminators
Elite Terminators
Devastators

Rhino
Razorback
Dreadnought
Super Dreadnought
Land Raider (Phobos/Crusader/Redeemer)
Stormraven

and thats the entire Space Marines codex. Thats roughly what the GK codex is right now - a 4th edition space marine codex in terms of unit variety. Actually I believe the 4th edition SMurfs had more units.

Way, way, way less than the 4e Marine book. Imagine on top of that that every single power-armoured unit has the exact same armament right down to the exact same three guns available in place of all the heavy and special choices.

(The GK book is a glorified mini-'Dex)

I don't hate on GK, I feel bad for there GK players. Weak sauce codex.

Now fluff GK I can't stand. They kill innocents just to make a bolt gun round, allow the destruction of planets to keep their secret, and kidnap small children to raise them as sacrifices for their armor. Why do they do these horrendous acts?

Because they're pure.

Tzeentch is chuckling while Malcador turns in his stasis pod.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Imagine a world where Drop Pods can all drop Turn 1. That's why a lot of people have hate for Grey Knights. That and mass Psychic/Invuln shenanigans.

But that's not the case. If Drop Pods scatter onto somewhere they can't land, they reduce scatter until they can. If a Deep Striking unit scatters onto an enemy unit, that deep striking unit at best would be delayed a round, and at worst will just get eaten by the Warp. There is much more risk involved.

But that's not the case. If Drop Pods scatter onto somewhere they can't land, they reduce scatter until they can. If a Deep Striking unit scatters onto an enemy unit, that deep striking unit at best would be delayed a round, and at worst will just get eaten by the Warp. There is much more risk involved.

Locator Beacons... never leave home without them (no idea if GK have access to them, but regular SM do)

Scion of Sanguinius wrote:

But that's not the case. If Drop Pods scatter onto somewhere they can't land, they reduce scatter until they can. If a Deep Striking unit scatters onto an enemy unit, that deep striking unit at best would be delayed a round, and at worst will just get eaten by the Warp. There is much more risk involved.

Locator Beacons... never leave home without them (no idea if GK have access to them, but regular SM do)

Ours are called "Teleport Homers" and they're only available on units that have to Deep Strike in to begin with. They don't benefit from their own homers, and other units only benefit if they were on the table at the start of the turn. So at best, reduced Deep Strike scatter is only available on turn 2, assuming the proper units arrived on turn 1 without a mishap, and didn't lose their sergeants (GK calls them Justicars) to Interceptor shots or the opposing shooting Phase.

Its because some people are still butt hurt over 5th edition. And/or they're incompetent players.

And they "hate us cause they ain't us".

Any time people don't like something, it is because they are jealous...is the mentality of a preteen girl.

The only issue I have with Grey Knights, or the players that play them (and this is just from what I've seen myself), is that they use Draigostar and Dreadknights. Always. Thats pretty much it. Or Assassins and Knights thrown in. They have to put such little effort into making a list and can still roflstomp with it. I'm not saying they're the most OP codex right now (I mean, I have no right, I play crons), I just hate how I usually just see the same thing on the board all the time, even in a casual setting.

I also hate Assassins and Knights, so that doesn't help.

The issues is that the 3rd Ed Daemonhunters codex was very low tier, like a 3-4. The 5th Ed GK codex cranked them to 11, followed by 6th Ed rules tuning them down to an 8-9, while the 7th Ed codex makes them a solid 7. As a mono-build mini-Dex goes, GKs are great as Allies, and a challenge to play as a main army, despite people being all butt-hurt over the overtuned 5th Ed Dex. Yes, most 7th Ed GK armies are either "Gate Taxis" or "More DKs!!!!!!", which can be a turn off for many. However, GK's do have the best Tac Terminators in the game, at 33ppm base that includes being Troops, Psykers with Force weapons, and +2 Str as needed. Not too shabby.

Their PA units are in a pretty bad place with the only two units worth fielding out of the four available being uber-Psyker-Sternguard cripple by lack of mobility (Purifiers), or uber mobile Tac Marines with less options (Interceptors).

The Nemesis DreadKnight is the gem of the codex, which makes up for the terribad vehicle selections available, namely Rhino-chassis coffins, overpriced paper Dreadnoughts, and the still hugely overpriced Land Raiders. Stormravens are the only in-codex option for Anti-Air, which makes it their best vehicle option, despite being an expensive target.

As to the rest, Paladins are too expensive for T4, 2 Wound models in a game with all too common S8+ AP2 pie-plates. Brother-Captians and Grand Masters would be awesome if it wasn't for the super points efficient Librarian. The Brotherhood Champion is another awesome unit that is overshadowed by any other HQ option, while the Techmarine is points better spent on more DreadKnights.

The three named characters (that didn't get stripped out between editions) are a Lord of War that is actually really good (Draigo), a not-Librarian therefore no reason to take it (Stern), and a BroChamp that is pretty bad despite having good rules (Crowe).

So, from the outside looking in, people see the legacy of 5th Ed domination, while from the inside GK players see a derth of options beyond a pretty slim yet playable set of good units supported by powerful rules. Thankfully, GK are a blast to play, if you like the only play style they offer.

SJ

Because those are the only good things in the codex. It's not Codex Grey Knights, it's Codex Dreadknights and pals.

I'd still say Grandmasters are awesome because, unlike every other combat HQ, you don't have to give up psychic powers to get him. Plus he's a BS5 psycannon to boot.

He's also not just a ML1 psyker, he's ML2. Sure, the Librarian is a lvl3 when upgraded, but I think giving up 1 level and paying a little more to be better in melee and have a psycannon is a decent trade.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd still say Grandmasters are awesome because, unlike every other combat HQ, you don't have to give up psychic powers to get him. Plus he's a BS5 psycannon to boot.

He's also not just a ML1 psyker, he's ML2. Sure, the Librarian is a lvl3 when upgraded, but I think giving up 1 level and paying a little more to be better in melee and have a psycannon is a decent trade.

Yeah I wanna use a grandmaster, I just need to get a mini. is the resin Brother-captain any good?

I use the metal version of the sculpt with special shoulder pads.

My Grand Master is a regular Terminator model with a greenstuff cape and a bunch of bits tacked on until he matched Draigo and Stern's bling. I also made an Iron Halo out of the end of the Nemesis Warding Stave with the center skull cut out. I think it turned out pretty well, though it leaves me with Terminators that don't divide evenly into groups of 5.

Side note: Should a Grandmaster have a Hammer, or keep his Sword? (Mine was modeled as Grandmaster Mordrak, but he isn't with us any more)

If you can afford the hammer give him a hammer. I usually can't so I just give him a halberd.

Old book made the sword the best cause it gave him a 3+ invuln in melee.

Yeah, knights aren't as broken as they superficially appear. Brutal alpha strike, but once you've weathered that each kill is a big loss to their firepower. Easiest army to table, no contest. They can break that dynamic by abusing Invisibility, but any army that can abuse Invisibility is broken.

It's not the rules that bother me, it's the godawful fluff that drives me to make jokes and negative comments. Mostly on my own personal blog rather than bugging people on a forum, but still. You asked though, and that would be why I have venom for Grey Knights.

Oh, and it's also the only army to encourage a single one true paint job that's drab grey, so there's that too.

There is a vocal minority that have had some Bad experiences with spammy GKs