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Ever since I started gaming, I have liked the look and fluff of Dark Angels. But looking though their codex makes me think they are a total lost cause. Their wargear is way worse that just Vanilla marines, and they get less powerful heavy hitters for more points than the other Chapters. Are Dark Angels fine, and I'm just not seeing their strengths, or is it really better to let them rot until the next dex?

Bottom of the pile competitively imo.

But not everyone plays highly competitive games...

Yea, that's what I was seeing too. Looks like my Dark Angel based dreams will remain crushed.

Wow! I was totally about to make this SAME post!

Yeah: just got around to buying Dark Vengeance, all excited to start up some awesome space-knight-monks...and then have read about a million reasons why I should just use the generic space marines codex instead.

Sad times...

Anyone wanna chime in with a reason to stick with it and play the DA over just using them as generic marines?

I hope they just fold DA in to the next SM codex.

Unless you're a masochist, there's really no reason to play them as DA instead of just running them as vanilla marines. Even SW and BA are competitive with the right lists but DA will remain awful at least until their next codex comes out.

leerm02 wrote:

Anyone wanna chime in with a reason to stick with it and play the DA over just using them as generic marines?

If you want to succeed in a competitive environment you'd most likely do better with vanilla marines. That sad fact being out of the way I can say that if you like Dark Angels, play them. There are some nice tricks and tactics that other marines just can't use and abuse, like PFG libby on a bike and DW assault with vengeful strike. While these things might not be gamebreaking (the libby has the potential to be), you can have a good time playing with DA as long as you face likeminded opponents.

I'm almost certain that the next DA codex won't be just a subsection in C:SM. There's just too many differences between the codex chapters and the first legion, the book itself would be way too big and confusing (and would contain almost double the amount of fluff most likely compared to the current books) unless GW scraps all the interesting units in the DA codex. Also, I'd be pissed if the glorious first legion, The Emperor's most loyal servants (the fallen don't exist and Caliban was destroyed in a freak gardening accident, nothing to see here, move along...) would become just another smurf variant. SO bored of seeing those blues everywhere...

All in all, combining DA with C:SM would considerably buff us but with the cost of becoming just a sidenote in the Ultramarines Codex. Personally I'm not ready or willing to pay that price. The next codex most likely won't buff DA much either and it will just be used as the benchmark in how much more powerful the vanilla marines should be.

 WarpWolf wrote:
Ever since I started gaming, I have liked the look and fluff of Dark Angels. But looking though their codex makes me think they are a total lost cause. Their wargear is way worse that just Vanilla marines, and they get less powerful heavy hitters for more points than the other Chapters. Are Dark Angels fine, and I'm just not seeing their strengths, or is it really better to let them rot until the next dex?

This is what it means to have a ballanced codex, the only ballanced codex

The only way to competitively run dark angels is with ravenwing and the bolter banner.
Deathwing is to expensive and there is to many volume of fire and AP2 weaponry out there.
Everything dark angels in power armour do, other marines do better.

DA are bad at the minute.....but they are still marines!

It doesn't matter if your armour is red, blue or green, they are SM and can use the SM codex instead.

Unless I want to play DW that's what I'm doing atm. A DA army feels very dated, and plays poorly vs the new releases.

Until they get updated I'm happy to use my RW with whitescar rules.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Until they get updated I'm happy to use my RW with whitescar rules.

Ravenwing would most certainly be cooler than scars, I love my black knights, but we're just so much more expensive than bikes other chapters get. Our rules are as good as scars, we just pay more for whatever reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Throw in that our fancy speeders, the main thing that separates our fast attack from other chapters, are disgustingly overpriced. I'm mainly looking at you, land speeder vengeance

Our rules are as good as scars, we just pay more for whatever reason.

To be honest, the RW rules are worse.

No skilled rider, no +1 str HoW. RW do have scout, but WS can get that very easily by taking khan.

All for the price of 6 points less a model lol.

The access to gravguns is what did it for me. Without them, facing off vs wraithknights and riptides is a chore.

The only saving grace of DA is the fact that their bikes can come in really small groups, which makes stopping them scoring a pain.

Oddly enough both DA and Tau were written by Jeremy Vetock. Same writer but totally different levels of play.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Oddly enough both DA and Tau were written by Jeremy Vetock. Same writer but totally different levels of play.

The certainly were. DA was his first attempt at a 40k codex, so I imagine he was trying not to rock the boat.

To be honest it wasn't bad, the problem is that later releases really redefined the standard of a competitive codex.

The reasons to use DA over vanilla Marines are powerfields and Black Knights, you can get those out of an Allied detachment to normal people.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
To be honest it wasn't bad, the problem is that later releases really redefined the standard of a competitive codex.

Which is almost exactly like what happens to the Dark Angels every time. They get a new codex early and the follow up codecies end up just better, including all the marines so that the DA just sit and look lame. Then they'll be the vanguard of the next wave, look OK for a short time and then the cycle happens again.

Skriker

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Our rules are as good as scars, we just pay more for whatever reason.

To be honest, the RW rules are worse.

No skilled rider, no +1 str HoW. RW do have scout, but WS can get that very easily by taking khan.

All for the price of 6 points less a model lol.

The access to gravguns is what did it for me. Without them, facing off vs wraithknights and riptides is a chore.

The only saving grace of DA is the fact that their bikes can come in really small groups, which makes stopping them scoring a pain.

Ah, forgot they could get scout from khan.

Well..... black knights are cooler than scars at least? Even though they don't entirely make up for the lack of grav.... and cost a quarter of a million points....

DA without Allies do pretty poorly. Even then, the DA is often the better ally, letting you take more of whatever.

Hopefully, once their new codex comes, they should be in better shape.

For now, they will only see use as allies for Guard or Powerfield bubbles. SM is just so much better than DA.

DA do make armoured lists much funnier with the powerfield on a bike.

 jreilly89 wrote:
DA without Allies do pretty poorly. Even then, the DA is often the better ally, letting you take more of whatever.

Hopefully, once their new codex comes, they should be in better shape.

For now, they will only see use as allies for Guard or Powerfield bubbles. SM is just so much better than DA.

If you read the old fluff that is really crazy because they didn't like to fight along the side of other troops and refused to fight on the same side as abhumans. I remember one old story where DA showed up to help out some guard and when they arrived the guard had ogryn units. The DA left and basically said "your on your own".

Didn't expect to spark so much discussion with this thread!
But while I hate that Dark Angels have gotten the short straw for multiple editions now, I would also hate to see them get buffed to the level of last edition Grey Knights, and have everyone at your game store hate you because you play Dark Angels. Such is the sad existence of many a 40k player.

The flyers are overcosted by about 25 points
The land speeder vengeance by about 45
The Raven wing need to allow deep strike precision as a chapter tactic, and then not spend the points PER MODEL on teleport homers. Fix these, and they will certainly be in line with the current space marines codecies.

I love them as allies for my astra militarum. Pask punisher with a 4+ invul, and a 4 up deny the witch if you give him a relic armor. Also their tech marines actually can fix my tanks now. By them selves....i wouldn't bother.

It's the Tactical Bathrobes. They get in the way and hamper their fighting ability.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's the Tactical Bathrobes. They get in the way and hamper their fighting ability.

Heh, those tactical bathrobes are part of the reason I like the look of DA

I will not give up on my Dark Angels. I like the way they look on the TT, I like their fluff, and I don't mind that they aren't that competitive. I don't play in major tournaments, so fun is more important than competitiveness for me right now. Even competitive players who pretty much only play Newcrons or Wave Serpent Spam should try a fun game with some Sons of the Lion; you never know, they might actually enjoy it!

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I will not give up on my Dark Angels. I like the way they look on the TT, I like their fluff, and I don't mind that they aren't that competitive. I don't play in major tournaments, so fun is more important than competitiveness for me right now. Even competitive players who pretty much only play Newcrons or Wave Serpent Spam should try a fun game with some Sons of the Lion; you never know, they might actually enjoy it!

I'm with you I like the models and the fluff but for me its about Sammael and the Ravenwing and there's just something fun about having a librarian on a motorcycle. I just hope that they dont sweep Ravenwing under the rug.

I agree, I don't play in very many tournaments. But my Game Store's casual games are usually pretty competitive, and that's fun for me, but it means I can't play Dark Angels without getting Steam rolled all the time. Otherwise I would jump on them in a heartbeat.

Ravenwing are a pretty strong army so the Dark Angels are not completely a lost cause. Also don't forget that you are basically Battle Brothers with EVERY other Imperial Book out there! This alone is what makes the Imperial Armies the strongest in the game, if your army is lacking don't be afraid of tossing some other units in. And if you want to keep it "Dark Angels" it allows for some pretty cool conversions. A friend of mine uses Grey Knight Paladins as "Deathwing Royal Guard" and they look amazing.

Okay, die-hard Dark Angels player here. I like them so much that, over the years, I have gathered about five companies worth.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I will not give up on my Dark Angels.

Preach it, Brother!

 WarpWolf wrote:
Yea, that's what I was seeing too. Looks like my Dark Angel based dreams will remain crushed.

The first thing is - do _not_ give up on your Dark Angel dreams.

You will hear, over and over again, that their Codex is the bottom of the pile. That they are not competitive. That other chapters do things better.

The differences, _if_ they exist, are marginal. Marginal.

At the end of the day, the Dark Angels (as someone else said) are still Marines. They still have access to 90% of all the nice bits and pieces other Marines get (so, they are not like those nasty Space Wolves who cannot even read the Codex Astartes), and the remaining 10% is topped up by some nice kit unique to the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels are, in fact, the best chapter you could pick. Let's have a quick look at just a little of the coolness the Dark Angels have...

Deathwing: You may look to the Wolf Guard and like the range of their options, you may look at Grey Knight Terminators and be jealous of their points costs. But the Deathwing are very much in a class of their own. That first turn deep strike, combined by all the long-ranged firepower you'll have on your back line, can knacker an opponent's army in the first half of the game. They are also completely fearless, can combine Cyclones with Thunder Hammers, get Twin-Linked when they come in one that Deep Strike and do not forget Split Fire - extremely useful when you need to hit both a vehicle and infantry in the same turn, or when you need to hedge your bets for an assault. Add Belial and you will get one squad on the table exactly where you need it, every time.

Ravenwing: You can put five Speeders in a single squadron and Deep Strike the whole lot of them. Five Speeders is not that expensive and you will find it a complete overkill on any target. Sprinkle your weapon choices to taste. The Attack Squadrons all have Scout, and 6 bikes plus an attack bike coming in from the flank near your opponent's back line can really ruin anyone's day, whether they are infantry or armour. If you are facing heavy infantry, you will love the Black Knights and their twin-linked, rapid-firing plasma guns (talons). They work against tanks too.

Nephilim/Dark Talon: A special word here, as many will tell you these are the worst flyers in the game. With the Dark Talon, they may have a point (you have to work hard to get the synergies working for it). The Nephilim... well, I am not so sure, It may well be the most over-priced flyer in the game, but that is not quite the same thing. As a tank-hunter, I have not found it bad at all. Would recommend you get at least one and try it. May surprise you.

General: Your army is extremely resilient - most of your special rules revolve around taking an objective and then holding onto it. Whether it is Deathwing Knights huddling together to get T5 with their 3++ or the fact that you have Stubborn across the board, once you get onto an objective it is _yours_.

Aside from all that, if you are into the fluff behind the game, the Dark Angels are the single coolest chapter. They are complete gits (Jervis Johnson once told me he imagined them as being as close as you can get to a Chaos chapter without actually crossing the line). They are completely ignoring the restrictions placed on all Marine chapters and it looks like they are trying to rebuild their old legion! During the Horus Heresy they had the greatest strategic mind leading them, and yet were not present during the final battle on Terra because that leader was waiting to see who won! (He was going round making deals with other legion commanders as to who should be the next Warmaster - him, obviously...). They were the very first legion created, and so (obviously) are the very standard by which all Marines should be judged!

Be a Dark Angel, and be fanatical about being a Dark Angel

If the gaming side is more your thing, remember, the power differences are marginal. If you are a good player, you can more than make up that difference in play - and then get the kudos for being victorious with a supposedly weak Codex. Frankly., you will earn the respect and worship of every gamer in your area and girls will throw themselves at you (that last may not be completely proven, though I continue the endeavour).

Follow your dreams and go for the Dark Angels. You will not be steam-rollered in every game, and you will not be disappointed.

Trust me. I am a Dark Angel