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The +1 STR on everything needed to have cost a lot more than it did. I'm not in favor of going back to that unless GK are going to be VERY pricey to field.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.

It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.

Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.

Thanks! I like those suggestions, and I'll incorporate them into my proposed changes.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Codex: Grey Knights 5th edition, page 62, "Psybolt Ammunition wrote:Psybolts are silver-tipped, psychically charged shells, used in storm bolters and similar weapons. When fired, each bolt becomes imbued with a portion of the Grey Knight's innate psycic power, causing it to glow with an eerie blue light, and strike home with significantly greater force than an ordinary round of its type. Psybolts are difficult to produce and incredibly wearing on a gun's inner mechanisms, but provide the Grey Knights with a relatively straightforward method of enhancing the power of standard-pattern weaponry, without resorting to extensive retrofitting of the weapon itself.

It's designed to kill Daemons and Psykers by blowing them up better than normal ammunition. You're simply wrong.

And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.

No invulns now that Daemons are their own army would be broken as flying rodent gak. They should be at most slightly better than a standard bolt shell, but they should also be much more effective vs. specifically daemons & psykers than they are against the likes of basic Guardsmen, Orks and every other non-daemonic or psychic target!

 Xenomancers wrote:
I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.

It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.

Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.

2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!

Uhh...thunderwolves are T5 2w and 3++ for 20 points less than that random 75* points you throw out there...and naturally mobile and have twice the attacks. I'm really not following you here.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.

Or just give Strikes the Scout USR and allow them to function as their background says they do?!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.

WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?

Their original rules did let them blow the living gak out of everyone else as well thanks to ap4. But they still need to represent the fact that these rounds are only made because they are literally kryptonite to warp creatures & psykers. If it's just going to be dumbed down to an across the board, stronger bolt round, then give it a new name, and let Sternguards take them too.
I highly doubt that Grey Knights need to go to such lengths to create a simple +1S bullet themselves, when they have an entire Forgeworld at their beckon call who could almost certainly do the same thing, and produce them in much higher quantities!

Hell, I'd even be okay with rules that give Psybolts the likes of Fleshbane vs. Daemons & Psykers! Just bring them back to their roots, and rid them of the silly Wardian gak.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!

Uhh...thunderwolves are T5 2w and 3++ for 20 points less than that random 75* points you throw out there...and naturally mobile and have twice the attacks. I'm really not following you here.

Show me where Thunderwolves have 2+ saves, unit-wide Force weapons, a handy +2S power, actual shooting abilities, an additional FnP save, and are immune to all forms of Instant Death.
Yes, Thunderwolves are among the game's best assault units. They're also one-shotable by the likes of S10, Wraithcannons, pointy-death-sticks, etc...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.

Or just give Strikes the Scout USR and allow them to function as their background says they do?!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.

WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?

Their original rules did let them blow the living gak out of everyone else as well thanks to ap4. But they still need to represent the fact that these rounds are only made because they are literally kryptonite to warp creatures & psykers. If it's just going to be dumbed down to an across the board, stronger bolt round, then give it a new name, and let Sternguards take them too.

Sternguard aren't Psykers. It's the fact that it's psychic that makes it dangerous to Daemons, it just so happens that the bullets hit everyone else harder as well. Further, they're rare enough that they can't be mass produced, so only the Grey Knights get them. This is hardly "Wardian gak", it's completely justifiable fluff-wise.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.

Or just give Strikes the Scout USR and allow them to function as their background says they do?!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.

WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?

Their original rules did let them blow the living gak out of everyone else as well thanks to ap4. But they still need to represent the fact that these rounds are only made because they are literally kryptonite to warp creatures & psykers. If it's just going to be dumbed down to an across the board, stronger bolt round, then give it a new name, and let Sternguards take them too.
I highly doubt that Grey Knights need to go to such lengths to create a simple +1S bullet themselves, when they have an entire Forgeworld at their beckon call who could almost certainly do the same thing, and produce them in much higher quantities!

Hell, I'd even be okay with rules that give Psybolts the likes of Fleshbane vs. Daemons & Psykers! Just bring them back to their roots, and rid them of the silly Wardian gak.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!

Uhh...thunderwolves are T5 2w and 3++ for 20 points less than that random 75* points you throw out there...and naturally mobile and have twice the attacks. I'm really not following you here.

Show me where Thunderwolves have 2+ saves, unit-wide Force weapons, a handy +2S power, actual shooting abilities, an additional FnP save, and are immune to all forms of Instant Death.
Yes, Thunderwolves are among the game's best assault units. They're also one-shotable by the likes of S10, Wraithcannons, pointy-death-sticks, etc...

A 6 inch move after deployment? Forgive me - thats gak. Infiltrate is far more useful. Considering GK have no DP it would give CAD over nemesis strike force some value. If SS had infiltrate - I would use them over Terms in some situations.

I'm sorry, but if you gave Strikes the Infiltrate rule, you'd guarantee you'll only ever see Nemesis detachments, as you'd simply turn GK's into the ultimate Alpha Strike T1 win-button army...

"Show me where Thunderwolves have 2+ saves, unit-wide Force weapons, a handy +2S power, actual shooting abilities, an additional FnP save, and are immune to all forms of Instant Death.
Yes, Thunderwolves are among the game's best assault units. They're also one-shotable by the likes of S10, Wraithcannons, pointy-death-sticks, etc..."
They don't have 2+ saves but they do have t5 - which is comparable protection. ST10 is exceptionally rare - fair price to pay when str6 only wounds you on a 3+ and not a 2+. The changes I suggest merely place paladins in line with thunder wolves not OP in the slightest. BTW - rending with double the attacks is hands down better than unit wide force weapons.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm sorry, but if you gave Strikes the Infiltrate rule, you'd guarantee you'll only ever see Nemesis detachments, as you'd simply turn GK's into the ultimate Alpha Strike T1 win-button army...

How? The best gun in the army is S7, and it's not like the points costs lets you take a massive number of Psycannons. You have no non-vehicle big guns except on Dreadknights, and they can already be anywhere T1 anyway.

He's not claiming Scout would be stronger than Infiltrate.

He's claiming (and I agree) that Infiltrate would be both fluff-incompatable and broken. So maybe Scout would give you some of it, but not be broken (possibly).

Strike Squads have a smaller footprint, aren't as durable, and cost less. Basically, they are PA GK, and Termies are TDA GK. That seems like a differentiation.

What if, even without the special T1 roll-for-reserves formation, Strike Squads still came in T1? Would that do what you're looking for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm less afraid of the T1 shooting (but I am quite afraid of it - it will be rough), and more afraid of the T2 assault-everything. Your opponent has one round to kill most of one of the most resilient armies out there, or they get charged by things that most armies simply can't handle.

As for comparing to Twolves, most people would say Twolves are OP, or at least near to. So you want your pallies to be OP too. Don't you think that might be a problem? I'd rather GK be in line with more even units.

Bharring wrote:
He's not claiming Scout would be stronger than Infiltrate.

Where'd anyone say that's what he claimed?

I think the problem with army-wide Deep Striking is that it's an all-in strategy. Either it lets you demolish your opponent, in which case it's "unfair", or it's rubbish, in which case it's not going to see much play. Deep Striking puts your own forces at a significant risk as well, after all.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm sorry, but if you gave Strikes the Infiltrate rule, you'd guarantee you'll only ever see Nemesis detachments, as you'd simply turn GK's into the ultimate Alpha Strike T1 win-button army...

DS and Infiltrate are different - hard to say one is strictly better than the other. NSF lets you DS on the firs turn though so...it is clearly better than infiltrate - just not for strike squads.

Xeno was pointing out that Scout instead of Infiltrate was a bad idea, because Infiltrate would be stronger. I was pointing out that that was the point.

Army-wide DS can be a bit skewish. Demons can do it too. As can Pod armies, Corsairs and Farsighted Enclave, among others. But those are mostly either without homers or are shooty forces.

GKs can be brutal already. It would be nice to be less monobuild (although that would be hard with such a small codex). But just buffing stuff in an already-strong codex to epic proportions isn't the right move.

If you want to DS fast and close with good CC units, you should risk scatter. If you want to use a homer, getting it down field quickly/easily should be costly/difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno - the point of giving Strike Squads infiltrate was to get beacons wherever the GK player wanted. That's why Infiltrate is being used to allow precision deep strike in this thread.

Bharring wrote:
He's not claiming Scout would be stronger than Infiltrate.

He's claiming (and I agree) that Infiltrate would be both fluff-incompatable and broken. So maybe Scout would give you some of it, but not be broken (possibly).

Strike Squads have a smaller footprint, aren't as durable, and cost less. Basically, they are PA GK, and Termies are TDA GK. That seems like a differentiation.

What if, even without the special T1 roll-for-reserves formation, Strike Squads still came in T1? Would that do what you're looking for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm less afraid of the T1 shooting (but I am quite afraid of it - it will be rough), and more afraid of the T2 assault-everything. Your opponent has one round to kill most of one of the most resilient armies out there, or they get charged by things that most armies simply can't handle.

As for comparing to Twolves, most people would say Twolves are OP, or at least near to. So you want your pallies to be OP too. Don't you think that might be a problem? I'd rather GK be in line with more even units.

Pallies are currently useless. IMO purgation squads are the only unit more useless. I propose the slightest change. Essentially and random +1 invo save which they can aquire from a GKL which is probably going to be in the unit anyways and remove ability to get 1 shot and you scream OP? Come on dude...which these changes they would still likely be on the shelf compared to dreadknights and centurion allies. It would just make them playable for friendly games.

4th version: This time I’ve included some explanations for my reasoning. I have incorporated several suggestions made by individuals on this thread. There are suggestions I have not incorporated, and if I do not list it in this post, then it is not part of my proposed update to the Codex.

Many thanks to the people who offered useful alternatives without feeling the need to call my suggestions “stupid” or “silly” in the process.

Chapter Tactics:
The other Space Marines have Chapter Tactics that customize an army to the specific Chapter. The Chapter Tactics can be useful, but primarily exist for Fluff reasons. The Grey Knights are in their own Codex, so their Chapter Tactics were incorporated into the profiles of the units. Vanilla Marines are not charged for their Chapter Tactics, and I do not believe the Grey Knights should be charged for theirs.

The rules they already have that best qualify as Chapter Tactics for the Grey Knights are:

Chapter Tactics
The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit

Daemonology (Sanctic):
I would replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves shooting much like how Hammerhand improves Melee.

4. Psybolts…………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential.

Psybolt is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker’s unit’s shooting attacks gain +1 Strength.

Slight adjustments to which powers each unit starts out with would help diversify the units. So designated shooting units would have Psybolts, while designated close-combat would have Hammerhand, while both would have the Primaris as usual.

Special Weapons:
I’d like to see Salvo fixed as much as anyone else, but my suggestions here do not include an assumption of Salvo receiving any change.

Psilencer: Range 36”, S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Force

Psycannon: Range 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending

The 36” range on both special weapons makes the half range for moving a useful 18”, so that they can be used on PAGK without being a liability. Now, a unit consisting of up to 9 models typically has access to one special weapon, and using the maximum range of this weapon would mean that the rest of the unit can not shoot, being as their Storm Bolters only have a 24” range.

The Psilencer gaining Salvo 4/6 is because as a Heavy 6 weapon, if the model moves, the Psilencer is objectively worse at causing wounds than the standard Storm Bolter. Thus it is now usable by units other than static gunlines..

The rest of both profiles are left the same. Psycannons and Psilencers would become popular on shooty units like Purgation Squads while the Incinerator would still be the better option for units that intend to get into close combat.

And Rending needs to stay on the Psycannon. Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only Special weapon the Grey Knights have that can harm that.

HQs
I’d leave their options the same, but a few of their base prices are too high for what they’re capable of.

125pts- Brother-Captain:
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:

Troops:

Strike Squad:
Make Rites of Teleportation (turn 1 Deep Strike) a special rule for Strike Squads instead of being a Detachment benefit for the Nemesis Strike force, but also have it reduce scatter to 1D6.

Elites

100pts – Dreadnought: Add a new piece of Wargear that grants the Dreadnought the option to use Skyfire each shooting phase.

Essentially the difference between the Space Marine Dreadnoughts and Grey Knight Dreadnoughts is what I’ve already characterized as the Grey Knight’s Chapter Tactics, whereas the Space Marines’ Chapter Tactics are listed separately.

Giving the Grey Knight Dreadnought an anti-air roll would definitely give them place in army lists along with the other units, and the Grey Knights are dreadfully lacking in anti-air as it is.

Paladins: At their current price, give them *T5 and Sanctuary.

It makes them more durable, but doesn’t give them ultimate Deep Strike, as Sanctuary can’t be cast before they come on the board, and they risk Perils to get it. *(edited from Eternal Warrior. T5 makes more sense)

Heavy:

Purgation Squad: replace Hammerhand Psychic power with the Psybolt power

As a designated shooting unit, they don’t need Hammerhand, and a psychic bonus to shooting would be much more useful.

270pts – Land Raider Redeemer: Add Torrent to Flamestorm Cannon Profile

The Land Raider Redeemers from other codexes would get the same treatment.

Dreadknight: Add a 30pt Storm Shield to the second bullet point of his options. Drop Sanctuary, and replace it with some appropriate power (Not Hammerhand, as the Dreadknight can’t use it, already being S10).

No access to 2++. No access to FNP. So he has to choose between getting a better Invulnerable save, and having two shooting weapons.

Making turn 1 teleportation for Strike Squads a thing while removing it from everyone else is an interesting take, but then you run into the issue of having the rest of the army come in piece-meal and getting obliterated.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Making turn 1 teleportation for Strike Squads a thing while removing it from everyone else is an interesting take, but then you run into the issue of having the rest of the army come in piece-meal and getting obliterated.

It gives the Strike Squads a unique role carrying Teleport Homers, to reduce the scatter of units that come later.

Dreadknights and Interceptors can still simulate a Deep Strike by using their Shunt move to get in position if they really need to, and Gate of Infinity can be used by a HQ to bring Terminators, Paladins, or Purifiers into the fight from a (relatively) safe initial starting position behind some sort of LoS blocking terrain.

I think it could work.

Bharring wrote:
Xeno was pointing out that Scout instead of Infiltrate was a bad idea, because Infiltrate would be stronger. I was pointing out that that was the point.

Army-wide DS can be a bit skewish. Demons can do it too. As can Pod armies, Corsairs and Farsighted Enclave, among others. But those are mostly either without homers or are shooty forces.

GKs can be brutal already. It would be nice to be less monobuild (although that would be hard with such a small codex). But just buffing stuff in an already-strong codex to epic proportions isn't the right move.

If you want to DS fast and close with good CC units, you should risk scatter. If you want to use a homer, getting it down field quickly/easily should be costly/difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno - the point of giving Strike Squads infiltrate was to get beacons wherever the GK player wanted. That's why Infiltrate is being used to allow precision deep strike in this thread.

I'd like to get infiltrate on SS because it gives them an actual role and allows you to post up your psycannons. Something to keep in mind is that a 10 man SS with 2 PC a hammer and a rhino is over 300 points. Shouldn't it do something useful? I mean for 70 more points I can have an IK for 50 less I can have 3 gravcannon centurions with rockets. I don't want SS to be a homing beacon - I want them to kill stuff otherwise I'll take other stuff that kills.

Sorry if I got a bit offensive. I really don't mean to be a jerk. I do see things differently. And am trying to be civil.

Strike Squad changes:
I assume you mean they roll to come in t1, not automatic? As that might be too much. And the -d6 might be a little much, but might be fine. Probably would need play testing.

Chapter Tactics:
Ageis and PEemons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be CT. Some of the cost of it would be CT, but it wouldn't fully account for it.

(Recall that almost all CT don't affect vehicles, but it looks like you already factored that in)

Psybolts - that's probably the best way to do Psybolts? Is it for any Sanctic, or just GK?

If we're updating Sanctic, as its basically the GK power table, just more widely available but at cost, what about making Sanctuary cap at a 3++? That would alleviate a lot of the concerns where you want to give better invulns to GKs. And some other potential abuses.

Dreadnoughts for all armies should probably have some AA option, but seems most poignant for GK. But aren't GK ones ML1, whereas I'm not sure vanilla ones get CT? probably not a huge issue, though.

LRR: Torrent is amazing. On something that sturdy, it might be a bit rough. I think default Torrent is 12" what if it was only 6"? Not sure either way, especially as LRs aren't considered great already, and you bumped the cost.

My concern with a t6 2+ 3++ is that, outside Poison, there is simply no effective weapon. High volume barely wounds it, then fails to beat its 2+. And now AP2 bounces off the things like pebbles. Perhaps if it were slow, or had only a few wounds, or didn't have any decent guns at all, or wasn't amazing in CC, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But the game already has too many too-good-at-everything models that are hard to kill. Now, you want to make one of them even harder to kill. There should be some option to hurt the thing, especially because it can't be ignored.

As for Pallies and EW, EW should be very, very rare. If you fail your invuln to a Lascannon or Wraithcannon, you should go splat.

That said, Acess to Sanctuary - provided they can't get better than a 3++ (I know you need to add something else for that - it'd only give them a 4++) is probably fine.

Bharring wrote:
Sorry if I got a bit offensive. I really don't mean to be a jerk. I do see things differently. And am trying to be civil.

Strike Squad changes:
I assume you mean they roll to come in t1, not automatic? As that might be too much. And the -d6 might be a little much, but might be fine. Probably would need play testing.

Chapter Tactics:
Ageis and PEemons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be CT. Some of the cost of it would be CT, but it wouldn't fully account for it.

(Recall that almost all CT don't affect vehicles, but it looks like you already factored that in)

Psybolts - that's probably the best way to do Psybolts? Is it for any Sanctic, or just GK?

If we're updating Sanctic, as its basically the GK power table, just more widely available but at cost, what about making Sanctuary cap at a 3++? That would alleviate a lot of the concerns where you want to give better invulns to GKs. And some other potential abuses.

Dreadnoughts for all armies should probably have some AA option, but seems most poignant for GK. But aren't GK ones ML1, whereas I'm not sure vanilla ones get CT? probably not a huge issue, though.

LRR: Torrent is amazing. On something that sturdy, it might be a bit rough. I think default Torrent is 12" what if it was only 6"? Not sure either way, especially as LRs aren't considered great already, and you bumped the cost.

My concern with a t6 2+ 3++ is that, outside Poison, there is simply no effective weapon. High volume barely wounds it, then fails to beat its 2+. And now AP2 bounces off the things like pebbles. Perhaps if it were slow, or had only a few wounds, or didn't have any decent guns at all, or wasn't amazing in CC, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But the game already has too many too-good-at-everything models that are hard to kill. Now, you want to make one of them even harder to kill. There should be some option to hurt the thing, especially because it can't be ignored.

As for Pallies and EW, EW should be very, very rare. If you fail your invuln to a Lascannon or Wraithcannon, you should go splat.

That said, Acess to Sanctuary - provided they can't get better than a 3++ (I know you need to add something else for that - it'd only give them a 4++) is probably fine.

They need to be T5 then - if they aren't going to be EW. I'm pretty sure that would be better in almost every way unless getting shot by a wraith cannon or D weapon which is super rare or in close combat. realistically this should be an upgrade for all terminators at no additional cost already.

I'm just saying - I feel dumb playing with 2 w models with t4. Unless its a character I can hide in a squad. It's like having a target over your head that says - "fire all las cannons here to auto win the game."

The T5 war of escalation continues. T5 is truly the new T4. T4 and T3 are now basically the same thing.

Bharring wrote:
Sorry if I got a bit offensive. I really don't mean to be a jerk. I do see things differently. And am trying to be civil.

Strike Squad changes:
I assume you mean they roll to come in t1, not automatic? As that might be too much. And the -d6 might be a little much, but might be fine. Probably would need play testing.

Yes, Rites of Teleportation allows the unit to roll for Deep Strike on turn 1, and lets them do an Eldar-like run and shoot on that first turn, but not before Interceptor Shots hit. This isn't too much as it already exists in the Nemesis Strike Force, but the units arriving have to survive an entire round of enemy shooting before they're allowed to charge into close combat.

The reduced scatter to 1d6 is because other armies know that if they're going up against Grey Knights that Deep Strike will be happening, and they can arrange their lines to restrict Deep Strike Access. Strike Squads are not overly dangerous for their costs, given they can only take one Special Weapon and they're paying for close-combat equipment they are likely to not survive long enough to use. They're just dangerous enough to have to be addressed.

Chapter Tactics:
Ageis and PEemons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be CT. Some of the cost of it would be CT, but it wouldn't fully account for it.

(Recall that almost all CT don't affect vehicles, but it looks like you already factored that in)

Check out Iron Hands. All of their Characters and vehicles get It Will Not Die, and all of their wound models get a 6+FNP. On top of that, Anything with Blessings of the Omnisiah get an extra +1 on top of their other perks for repairing vehicles. So I really don't think Psyker ML1 is too much for a Chapter Tactic.

Psybolts - that's probably the best way to do Psybolts? Is it for any Sanctic, or just GK?

Sanctic. Just about anyone can use it, it's just that non-Grey Knights Peril on all doubles.

If we're updating Sanctic, as its basically the GK power table, just more widely available but at cost, what about making Sanctuary cap at a 3++? That would alleviate a lot of the concerns where you want to give better invulns to GKs. And some other potential abuses.

Instead of putting that cap on Sanctuary, I believe it would be more fair to put that 3++ Cap across the entire game, just as an Armor or Cover Save can't be improved above 2+.

Dreadnoughts for all armies should probably have some AA option, but seems most poignant for GK. But aren't GK ones ML1, whereas I'm not sure vanilla ones get CT? probably not a huge issue, though.

I wouldn't have any problem with all Dreadnoughts having anti-air options. I only mentioned it specifically for the Grey Knights because we have no other deployable Anti-air.

LRR: Torrent is amazing. On something that sturdy, it might be a bit rough. I think default Torrent is 12" what if it was only 6"? Not sure either way, especially as LRs aren't considered great already, and you bumped the cost.

6" Torrent would be fine, though I would argue, not 30pts worthy (note the current Grey Knight Land Raider Redeemer is 240pts).

My concern with a t6 2+ 3++ is that, outside Poison, there is simply no effective weapon. High volume barely wounds it, then fails to beat its 2+. And now AP2 bounces off the things like pebbles. Perhaps if it were slow, or had only a few wounds, or didn't have any decent guns at all, or wasn't amazing in CC, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But the game already has too many too-good-at-everything models that are hard to kill. Now, you want to make one of them even harder to kill. There should be some option to hurt the thing, especially because it can't be ignored.

Is this about the Dreadknight? He's fine against your typical Marine or equivalent, but he's supposed to be awesome against Greater Daemons, and when they have Instant Death options and strike at a higher Initiative, ignoring his armor saves, he doesn't stand much of a chance.

Also, I think a Dreadknight standing there with an Sword and Shield would look cool, especially with some of the Conversions out there that make Dreadknights look like oversized Terminators.

As for Pallies and EW, EW should be very, very rare. If you fail your invuln to a Lascannon or Wraithcannon, you should go splat.

Barring Eternal Warrior, they need to be harder to Instant Kill. Kitted out with an HQ they can cost more than a Baneblade as a unit. T5 would not be uncalled for, and I personally think is a better option for them.

That said, Acess to Sanctuary - provided they can't get better than a 3++ (I know you need to add something else for that - it'd only give them a 4++) is probably fine.

Sanctuary is also easier, because it doesn't force players to kit-bash shields onto their Paladins.

Before I get started, I just want to say this to you Bill:

Learn how to break up a quote properly, instead of this "reply in red" BS, because it makes it difficult to single out your point to reply to it in a cohesive manner.

 Bill1138 wrote:
It's a Warp Charge 2 power that effects one unit, and only for the unit that cast the power. Did you even read the suggestion?

Not really, because the current version is fine. As has been mentioned repeatedly by a certain other person in this thread, most Daemons units have only an invulnerable save.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only special weapon the Grey Knights have to counter that. The Psycannon really needs Rending to stay, and you just calling it stupid isn't helpful or constructive.

So did you not notice how I said that Grey Knights should get a psychic melta gun to fill in for the loss of Rending Psycannons (which are still stupid)? Because I did say that Grey Knights should get a specialty melta weapon for killing heavy armor (and MCs).

 Bill1138 wrote:
Please actually read what I suggested before complaining about it. It only removes Daemons' Invulnerable Saves, and only for one unit for each casting AS A WARP CHARGE 2 Power. And it applies to both shooting and close combat, so that part of your complaint just doesn't reflect what I said.

WC2 isn't hard to guarantee, when you're an army like GKs that can throw Warp Charge at anything and everything. It's also the case that it's not actually a very useful power compared to the likes of Sanctuary or Cleansing Flame, or Vortex of Doom.

 Bill1138 wrote:
And have you encountered anyone who's actually stacked Sanctuary in a Grey Knight list for 2++? The sheer cost of the unit would be completely impractical and wouldn't leave enough points to have enough other units to claim objectives. The opponent would simply kill everything else and then stay away from the super unit. Game over, tfg with the super unit loses.

The things which get combined with that are also going to be things which can delete a unit from the board every time they fire. Like GravCents. It's hard to kill the rest of a list when it's mostly a GravStar with stacked Sanctuary and Invisibility, and said GravStar is deleting enemy units from the board every time it looks at something sideways.

Experiment 626 wrote:
- You know how Marine players are constantly & vehemently complaining all the time about how there's far too much ap2/3 in the game and it makes their 3+ saves all but useless? This is doing the exact same thing to every single Daemon player.

As mentioned, I had particular reasons in mind for Psycannons going back to their old-school Daemonhunter incarnation. If you had payed attention to my amended Psycannon suggestion- which was also where I mentioned the "Psi-Melta"- then you'd have noticed that I changed it to be a case of "you can't use saves granted by psychic powers to save against Psycannons, and you must use your base save if an existing one is improved by a psychic power".

As in, Psycannons ignore 2++ re-rollable BS, but not the default 5++ that every Daemon gets.

Experiment 626 wrote:
@Whiskey144: Personally I don't like the idea of a 'super meltagun' for GK's as it just seems to step too much on the toes of the Sisters identity...
Instead, what about something like;
- Psy-Lance - S8/ap2/Lance/*Psychic bane Heavy 1
*a weapon with this rule may re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armour penetration rolls against models with 'Daemon' and/or 'Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers' rule.

This gives the Knights a generic anti-tank weapon - perhaps keep it to a 24" range, or else take the 18"/Assault 1?
It of course gets slightly better vs. the GK's traditional foes, yet is not on the same levels of outright crap like the previous codex's issues with unfairly picking on Daemons & Psykers in general.

And this way, the door is open for the Sisters to get the super blessed melta weaponry.

The Sisters thing isn't "blessed Meltas", it's massed meltas. The Grey Knights getting a 'better', more expensive meltagun allows Psycannons to lose Rending, while also opening up a better way to deal with heavy armor or MCs for the GKs, when they can't get into combat (it happens, since 7th is a shooting edition after all).

Oh, and by "more expensive", I mean that said "Psi-Melta" would cost, at minimum, 15 points- probably more like 20 points given that it's 18"/Assault and has Force to boot.

The Sisters' whole "bolter/flamer/melta" 'holy trinity' shtick/identity is that they bring it in spades, and that it's all that they really bring (for better or worse).

The Grey Knights have "holier"/"blessed" versions of a weapon makes more sense than the Sisters, since the GKs rely very heavily on having super-holy/-blessed armaments to kill daemons. I'd also like to point out that "Heavy" and "24 inch range" don't really go well together. Multimeltas generally work because you can put them onto some kind of vehicle that can get into range easily (Pod'Naughts, Speeders), or because it's a 'deterrent' gun that says "this is a death zone to all things AV". There are some armies- like Sisters- who rely almost entirely on MMs (or regular Meltaguns on something fast/Outflank-y), but they're by far the exception rather than the rule.

I'd also like to point out that the proposed profile- I'll reproduce here, in case you forgot (or didn't pay much attention)- also included the "Force" trait, rather than some value that's (paradoxically) tailored against Daemons/Psykers... which your "Psychic Bane" rule is.

Psi-Melta
18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force

I'll also point out that the Imperium does not actually possess any "Lance" weapons- that's really more of an Eldar/DE thing. Moreover, Psi-Meltas should have some kind of quality to distinguish them from regular meltaguns besides "more range"- hence Force, which also helps with killing 2+ armor MCs- which, incidentally, exist only in the Tau and Grey Knight (!) armies!

 Bill1138 wrote:
Many thanks to the people who offered useful alternatives without feeling the need to call my suggestions “stupid” or “silly” in the process.

I'm sorry your feelings got hurt, but nobody cares because this is the Internet.

Also, I don't like people very much anyways, so don't feel bad about it- I'm like that to everybody in real life!

 Bill1138 wrote:
The rules they already have that best qualify as Chapter Tactics for the Grey Knights are:

Chapter Tactics
The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit

I would just like to point out that "Chapter Tactics JUST BECAUSE" is not a good excuse for army-wide ML1. Nobody gets that for free, and Grey Knights should not be the exception, because otherwise they will prove why it's a bad idea.

However, I am not opposed to a discounted ML1, as part of the "Chapter Tactic".

 Bill1138 wrote:
Daemonology (Sanctic):
I would replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves shooting much like how Hammerhand improves Melee.

4. Psybolts…………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential.

Psybolt is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker’s unit’s shooting attacks gain +1 Strength.

Slight adjustments to which powers each unit starts out with would help diversify the units. So designated shooting units would have Psybolts, while designated close-combat would have Hammerhand, while both would have the Primaris as usual.

No. Psychic powers that provide +1 Strength to all shooting would be horrendously broken. I'll just let you think over exactly what happens when Psycannons become Strength 8 (!).

 Bill1138 wrote:
Special Weapons:
I’d like to see Salvo fixed as much as anyone else, but my suggestions here do not include an assumption of Salvo receiving any change.

Psilencer: Range 36”, S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Force

Psycannon: Range 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending

The 36” range on both special weapons makes the half range for moving a useful 18”, so that they can be used on PAGK without being a liability. Now, a unit consisting of up to 9 models typically has access to one special weapon, and using the maximum range of this weapon would mean that the rest of the unit can not shoot, being as their Storm Bolters only have a 24” range.

The Psilencer gaining Salvo 4/6 is because as a Heavy 6 weapon, if the model moves, the Psilencer is objectively worse at causing wounds than the standard Storm Bolter. Thus it is now usable by units other than static gunlines..

I am disappoint son. The Psilencer change I can get behind... in part because it was my idea originally. The Psycannon change is dumb, because Psycannons staying as Rending is dumb. As I demonstrated above, Psycannons currently obsolete Psilencers in every possible way, and truthfully I don't see that changing- literally there is only one target type that Psilencers are better against, and that's Toughness 4 multi-wound infantry, who happen to have moderate-to-mediocre saves (4+ equivalent or worse).

Psycannons, quite frankly, need a thorough nerf and rebuild into a particular role... one where Rending is not necessary. This will require the introduction of a special weapon that is dedicated to anti-armor usage. That is okay, we can drum up something, I'm sure.

 Bill1138 wrote:
The rest of both profiles are left the same. Psycannons and Psilencers would become popular on shooty units like Purgation Squads while the Incinerator would still be the better option for units that intend to get into close combat.

And Rending needs to stay on the Psycannon. Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only Special weapon the Grey Knights have that can harm that.

Psycannons being the only special that can harm AV13+ is the problem. Dropping Rending in exchange for getting a psychic meltagun would be a better deal- Melta weapons, being both high strength, AP1, and potentially armorbane, make far better anti-vehicle weapons than S7+Rending does.

You completely ignore the possibility of introducing a dedicated anti-vehicle/-MC special weapon, which removes the need for Rending Psycannons (because it was stupid when Ward introduced, and it still is).

 Bill1138 wrote:

270pts – Land Raider Redeemer: Add Torrent to Flamestorm Cannon Profile

The Land Raider Redeemers from other codexes would get the same treatment.

There's a simpler solution. It's called "Heavy Incinerators". As in, "give 'Deemers the option to swap Flamestorms to Heavy Incinerators". There are potential issues with Flamestorms gaining Torrent; if the issue is that the GK 'Deemers aren't up to par, then the simpler solution is to allow them to swap their Flamestorms for Heavy Incinerators- boom, you now have Torrent. Oh, and Soul Blaze (as useful as that is...).

Changing Flamestorms has more ripple effects than "GK 'Deemers are better". It's also worth noting that Land Raiders as they stand are quite heavily overpriced- making a 'Deemer a whopping 270 points is just going to make matters worse.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Instead of putting that cap on Sanctuary, I believe it would be more fair to put that 3++ Cap across the entire game, just as an Armor or Cover Save can't be improved above 2+.

What about those wargear items that confer a native 2++? Off the top of my head, I'll admit to only recalling two- the DE Shadowfield (2++ until you fail, then the item is "broken", and may not be used for the rest of the game*) and the vanilla SM Armor Indomitus (2++ once per game).

*Since DE are T3, it's less likely that that effect will come into play as the owning model will most likely be dead.

One of the conditions of posting on Dakka Dakka is agreeing to abide by the rules of the site.

One of these - arguably the most important one - is Rule #1.

Politeness at all times is mandatory.

Yeah whiskey144, be polite and dont be rude and call people and their ideas stupid....people have feelings too...

Alpharius, I would to point out this guy, whiskey144 has been rude to many other members and in other topics.

Whiskey144, just because we cant see your true face, name and address on the net doesnt give you an excuse to be rude to other people.



edit: removed rudeness elements with appropriate

Filch is now being rude to Whiskey144 as he's calling him out!

Can we get a Moderator over here please?

SGTPozy wrote:
Filch is now being rude to Whiskey144 as he's calling him out!

Can we get a Moderator over here please?

Dudes, stop trolling to get the thread closed. If it isn't on topic, it doesn't need said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To get this train back on track, my most recent suggestion involves fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon to bring the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase.

Psilencer: 36", S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force

Psycannon: 36", S7, AP-, Salvo 2/4, Armorbane

Both are good against infantry, but the Psilencer is also good against Monstrous Creatures, while the Psycannon is good against vehicles, and neither is particularly good against the other's specialty.

Salvo for the Psilencer is because the current Heavy 6 is worthless.

36" range on both makes their half range a usable 18", while the maximum range sacrifices the rest of the unit's shooting as they have only a 24" range.

Fleshbane on the Psilencer is because all enemy units get their saves against it, so it needs most of its shots to wound to have more than a laughable chance of any of them being unsaved.

Armorbane on the S7, AP4 Psycannon gives the Psycannon a fair chance at damaging AV13 like Soulgrinders. And being AP4 without Rending means it can't cause explosions, so the 2 or 4 shots are justified.

SGTPozy wrote:
Filch is now being rude to Whiskey144 as he's calling him out!

Can we get a Moderator over here please?

Oh my bad, I did not think adding Lolols at the end was rude

Please allow me to edit those Lolols as because that laughing smiley seems to be less rude.

humble apologies.

 Bill1138 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To get this train back on track, my most recent suggestion involves fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon to bring the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase.

Psilencer: 36", S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force

Psycannon: 36", S7, AP-, Salvo 2/4, Armorbane

Both are good against infantry, but the Psilencer is also good against Monstrous Creatures, while the Psycannon is good against vehicles, and neither is particularly good against the other's specialty.

Salvo for the Psilencer is because the current Heavy 6 is worthless.

36" range on both makes their half range a usable 18", while the maximum range sacrifices the rest of the unit's shooting as they have only a 24" range.

Fleshbane on the Psilencer is because all enemy units get their saves against it, so it needs most of its shots to wound to have more than a laughable chance of any of them being unsaved.

No way to Fleshbane + Force. You're effectively at this point removing every single T4/T5 non-2+ save unit from the game.
Anything that has a solid chance at nuking a Riptide or Wraithknight in one go is going to be ridiculously OP vs. everything that's below that level... How does essentially removing the likes of half the Daemon codex, 'Nid Warriors/Raveners, Wraiths, Ogryns/Bullgryns, Nobz/Biker Nobz, Flashgits, etc... really improve the game?

If you want Fleshbane, then Force has to go. Otherwise, simply upping the range to 36" and swaping Heavy 6 for Salvo 4/6 is more than enough of a boost to the current incarnation of the Psilencer.
Its purpose is not to reliably one-shot the most powerful MC's in the game. It's supposed to be a way to effectively counter multi-wound T4/5 units that don't sport high saves, of which almost every non-Marine book has at least one or two such units.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Armorbane on the S7, AP4 Psycannon gives the Psycannon a fair chance at damaging AV13 like Soulgrinders. And being AP4 without Rending means it can't cause explosions, so the 2 or 4 shots are justified.

I wouldn't bother with Armourbane... it would just make it way too good at HP'ing all vehicles in general to death at that point. (not to mention add a heinous amount of added dice rolling to work out these effects!)

Besides, you have an excellent answer already to those supposedly problematic Soul Grinders in Dreadknights. Outside of the dice really favouring the Daemon player, a Dreadknight will routinely smoke a Soul Grinder that hasn't been given at least a couple of augments. (or is under the effects of Invis, but no Daemon player in their right mind will throw that on a Grinder unless it's their absolute last unit, at which point, you've probably won anyways!)
The DK has higher WS & I, can fight at S10, can boost it's own invuln to 4++ quite easily, and is much faster than the Grinder to begin with, allowing it to get the charge off. (even against Slaany Grinders, you're still slightly faster, and 9/10 Grinders will be likely be Nurgle or Tzeentch anyways.)

Lose the Rending, and instead look at something like say Shred, and/or the idea of giving it the ability to inflict -1 to invulns. (or even the idea of it bypassing all augments to any invulnerable save, essentially meaning Daemons can only ever at best get their basic 5++ vs. Psycannon shots)

 Alpharius wrote:
One of the conditions of posting on Dakka Dakka is agreeing to abide by the rules of the site.

One of these - arguably the most important one - is Rule #1.

Politeness at all times is mandatory.

As noted above, and in addition, Rule #2 of Dakka is: Stay On Topic!

As this is the second in-thread warning, further rude or off-topic posts will result in a short suspension from the site, so please, if you can't post politely and on-topic, just don't post... thanks.