Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 99 Quad mortar, pintle weapons, transfers

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**whalemusic360**

ImAGeek wrote:
whalemusic360 wrote:
Did they say anything about the other Warlord guns and heads, or better yet show something?

Aww yis. That is the head I will have. Any info on it beyond the photo?

**warboss**

Kanluwen wrote:
warboss wrote:
The only problem in the evolving fluff (and if any races in 40k deserve evolving fluff it would be tau and nids) is how they transport it to go along with their theories of mobile warfare. A simple solution would be to create a variant of the manta capable of transporting the larger suits (riptide and up) like the thunderhawk transporter.

Even simpler solution?

Tau built Drop Pod equivalent. It's not like they would not have examples of them at this point in time.

Except that a drop pod doesn't actually solve the problem. It simply gets the unit to the battlefield initially but doesn't help it redeploy at all.

**TiamatRoar**

As soon as I saw that photo of that new Tau suit, my mind IMMEDIATELY said "Wow, now that's compensating for something!"

**Peregrine**

Kanluwen wrote:
"Directly counter to previous Tau fluff"? Seriously?

Yes, directly counter to previous Tau fluff. Tau are supposed to be the sensible faction, and they don't do stupid things like make giant anime robots. Crisis suits are fine because they're Starship Troopers style power armor. IOW, human-scale heavy infantry that space marines wish they could be. Once you get bigger than that there's no practical benefit to having a bipedal form and you're left with the massive drawbacks (which, btw, are inherent problems with geometry, not something you can engineer your way out of). This is why the Tau built tanks and aircraft for their heavy units, not giant anime robots. If the Tau are supposed to innovate and develop a heavy artillery unit then it should be a superheavy skimmer, not this thing.

**Kanluwen**

warboss wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
warboss wrote:
The only problem in the evolving fluff (and if any races in 40k deserve evolving fluff it would be tau and nids) is how they transport it to go along with their theories of mobile warfare. A simple solution would be to create a variant of the manta capable of transporting the larger suits (riptide and up) like the thunderhawk transporter.

Even simpler solution?

Tau built Drop Pod equivalent. It's not like they would not have examples of them at this point in time.

Except that a drop pod doesn't actually solve the problem. It simply gets the unit to the battlefield initially but doesn't help it redeploy at all.

Remember how there was a post from someone(I believe it was in the "Parting shots from LOW" thread) who talked to FW staff and they mentioned that "Mont'ka" and "Kauyon" aren't the only methods of warfare for the Tau? This might be the first example of Tau adopting a "garrison" mentality, which would be something new. Nothing on that thing seems to be markerlight activated, which is interesting.

In any case, something like this doesn't necessarily need to be highly mobile to be a part of the standard Tau methodology of warfare that we have seen examples of. If you could get it into a position, preplanned, with the supporting elements in place it would allow for a really nasty variant of Kauyon where the bait becomes not an "intentional weak spot" as normal but something that would have to be taken out if one wishes to defeat a Hunter Cadre.

**warboss**

@peregrine

Tau fluff says they do what works, not "they don't do stupid stuff". Once you open the door to anime robots, "stupid stuff" goes out the door as bipedal humanoid is rarely if ever the optimal design. You're simply extrapolating the fluff to suit YOUR preferences, not what is actually written. The riptide fluff said the suit is an advancement in both armor, armament, and powerplant tech for the tau. With the 3rd sphere time shift (moving previously "current" fluff back a few hundred years), it isn't that they didn't want to but rather simply couldn't miniaturize the bigger stuff to fit into bipedal forms. As long as they incorporate a way to transport the bigger suits quickly like my previous manta variant example, the new big guy is completely consistent with the fluff from the past five years or more where tech advancements are allowing bigger suits (xv9, riptide monstrous creatures, and now their first gargantuan) while threats like nids are simultaneously necessitating it.

Edit: Kan snuck in a post while I was pecking away.

@Kan: I agree what you wrote is plausible but my point was seeing how the new big suit could be incorporated into the existing doctrine. A simple sentance or two and a background pic of a new manta variant with a big open bay ala the thawk and valk carrier would be the easiest fix that doesn't require any fundamental change like that.

**MajorWesJanson**

The thing is a walking fire base. It's half Destroid Monster, half DI Juggernaut. The Riptide and variants are the fast movers, this thing looks like it is a bunker that can relocate as needed. A linchpin for the more mobile units that can move with them (if slower) If they need it to move faster, there is probably a modified Orca transporter for it.

A superheavy skimmer would be just as bad a platform for an artillery piece as this thing in terms of realism- zero contact with the ground means zero bracing. And it would take a lot of energy to keep it skimming. As for a flier artillery, it's the Tigershark AX-1-0 but that is limited by air superiority and loiter time.

Fluff-wise, I bet this thing is the result of reverse engineering some of the knights that they managed to drop on Agrellan. The Riptide was rather successful, but still vulnerable to knights, so they use the knight tech to build a bigger gun-suit to knock out knights before they can get into CC range.

**Kanluwen**

From Advanced Tau Tactica poster "Bitterman":

OK, I just got back from the event, so after posting the photo earlier, I thought I'd put up some more info that I learned on the day.

Next(?) IA book is still planned to be Tau... possibly against Imperial Knights (plus some Guard tagging along for the fun of it). Unlikely to be out for a while though ("next year"?).

On the big suit...

Rules totally undecided yet, according to Will, the sculptor. So I'm not sure if the ones listed earlier are accurate - though as it's obviously someone else that writes the rules, maybe they've written them and just not told him, it's possible.

The arms and shoulder weapons are all mounted such that they could be swapped out for other weapons. The shoulder weapons are intended as a kind of railgun, but not the same as the "heavy railguns" we've seen on the AX-1-0 for example... he spoke about this at some length, and had some cool ideas how he imagines them working. He figures that the velocity of a railgun like this could be variable: as well as the high-velocity solid rounds we know of from existing railguns, you could fire a different munition at a much lower velocity and "lob" it like a mortar, or even launch a drone-controlled shell. Flexibility was the key word, he said it several times.

The arm weapons are triple-barrelled rotary ion cannons (again, no idea what that means for their rules). The arms on the model he had on display were magnetised (he actually dropped it while I was talking to him and it fell to bits, I panicked but he was like "nah don't worry about it" and put it back together) and the model will be produced with 6mm/8mm holes in it, so you don't even need to drill your own magnet holes.

He's sculpted alternate arms already (triple fusion guns of some kind I think), but not any more shoulder weapon systems yet. Because the arms are on a magnetised mount, he isn't tied into them all having the same design, and mentioned that one variant could include a "box" of missiles (SMS/MP style) instead of an actual arm holding a gun. The shoulder systems could be different too - there could be two independent weapons (instead of three on a shared axle mount) and those could also include missiles. He sounds quite keen on drone-guided missiles.

The suit has three pilots, and you may be able to see the three entry hatches on the front in the photo: he imagined the central one to be in charge, with lesser ranks either side, much like a Princeps and Moderati for an imperial Titan.

The model will come on the round base shown as it's the largest plastic base they make! He put this model together without thinking about the base, posed differently it ought to fit the base a little bit better. It's a bit hard to tell from the photos how big this model is - it's big. Warhound big? Much bigger than a Knight, anyway.

Oh - it's "with manufacturing", i.e. finished and ready for production. When it will actually go into production and go on sale, he wasn't sure (that depends on when it fits into the release schedule, when they can write rules for it, etc. and is out of the sculptor's hands).

Overall I personally love the model, though I've seen mixed reactions to it in this thread. However - I'm not sure about the three shoulder guns (makes the model look too much "I hear you like guns with your guns" for my taste). A pair of independent missile racks would look much better IMO, and sounds like something that is very likely on the cards - indeed, it looks really cool if you just leave the shoulder weapon off completely, you don't have to have something there if you don't want to! But the arm and body weapons are really cool IMO. I'm very positive about this, and will be buying one.

Sooo...no drone piloting it, but still cool.

**warboss**

Thanks for the post quote. Drool..... I was a bit worried about the weapon mounts after having a first release contemptor and then seeing forgeworld release a relic one soon after. The premade magnet holes sound great as does arm missiles (smart missiles?) That make it a mega broadside.

**nudibranch**

As someone who cares not for practicality and has an obsession with hyper+detailed robots ( I particularly like the circular detailing on the legs), that Tau suit is right up my street.

**Harriticus**

I've never had a problem with giant anime style suits for tau. It fits their motif. This thing is awesome, shame I don't play tau.

**Peregrine**

warboss wrote:
Once you open the door to anime robots, "stupid stuff" goes out the door as bipedal humanoid is rarely if ever the optimal design.

Yes, and prior to the idiocy of the Riptide the Tau had left that door shut. The Riptide opened it, and it's only getting worse.

You're simply extrapolating the fluff to suit YOUR preferences, not what is actually written. The riptide fluff said the suit is an advancement in both armor, armament, and powerplant tech for the tau. With the 3rd sphere time shift (moving previously "current" fluff back a few hundred years), it isn't that they didn't want to but rather simply couldn't miniaturize the bigger stuff to fit into bipedal forms. As long as they incorporate a way to transport the bigger suits quickly like my previous manta variant example, the new big guy is completely consistent with the fluff from the past five years or more where tech advancements are allowing bigger suits (xv9, riptide monstrous creatures, and now their first gargantuan) while threats like nids are simultaneously necessitating it.

And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.

**deleted20250424**

Peregrine wrote:
And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.

Firstly, the Rule of Cool wins this argument alone.

Secondly, it's like you haven't even seen Pacfic Rim.

Third... who doesn't love giant robots!?

I don't like Tau and I love that thing.

**yellowfever**

The tau are very adaptable. Maybe fighting the imperium has made them change some tactics. Besides I like the tau primarily using battle suits instead of big tanks. We got super heavy skimmers already. I like the new stuff. When I started the tau when they first came out it was because of the battle suits.

**MajorWesJanson**

Peregrine wrote:
And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.

A Heavy ground tank. But Tau have hover-tanks, an already problematic combination in terms of practicality and energy effciency.
Add armor- heavier tank, more energy to keep it off the ground.
Compact advanced power plant- the things are already problematic as far as safety and reliability goes, and a hover tank will be moving around a lot more. And much of that energy increase is still going to keeping the tank floating.
Larger guns- hover tank- no ground contact- no bracing- less accuracy- more weight.

Bipedal war machines are not the most realistic. But neither are hover tanks or combining your small combat spacecraft with a troop lander.
Tau are not based on what is most viable from an outside perspective, but what is functional in universe. They didn't have much experience with large tanks or walkers because they didn't have the need, until running into the outside universe where those types of units have a role, and bipedal war machines have been functional and effective for 10K+ years. So of course the pragmatic Tau are going to imitate the design trend.

**Peregrine**

TalonZahn wrote:
Firstly, the Rule of Cool wins this argument alone.

Not really, because this thing isn't cool.

Secondly, it's like you haven't even seen Pacfic Rim.

You mean the movie with the absolutely ridiculous excuses for why we have to build giant anime robots, despite all of the countless reasons why it's a stupid idea? It's not a bad movie if you want to turn your brain off and watch monsters vs. robots, but that's about it.

**deleted20250424**

Well, it would be awfully hard to model nanobots.

**Peregrine**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
A Heavy ground tank. But Tau have hover-tanks, an already problematic combination in terms of practicality and energy effciency.
Add armor- heavier tank, more energy to keep it off the ground.
Compact advanced power plant- the things are already problematic as far as safety and reliability goes, and a hover tank will be moving around a lot more. And much of that energy increase is still going to keeping the tank floating.
Larger guns- hover tank- no ground contact- no bracing- less accuracy- more weight.

All of these things are just as much of a problem for bipedal robots. In fact they're worse for the giant anime robot because of geometry. If you want equivalent levels of protection you need much larger (and heavier) amounts of armor for the giant anime robot, which makes the weight issues even worse. In fact, at some point ground pressure becomes a fatal flaw, the legs sink into the ground, and the whole thing falls over and explodes. Meanwhile the bipedal form is inherently unstable, so the giant anime robot will have to constantly spend energy just to stand upright. And it's in serious danger of knocking itself over every time it fires, which is much worse than the heavy skimmer's recoil problems.

So of course the pragmatic Tau are going to imitate the design trend.

That makes no sense. The Tau are pragmatists and therefore they actually use science and engineering. They recognize that human technology is primitive and governed by religious idiocy, so why should they use that idiocy as inspiration for their own work?

**warboss**

TalonZahn wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
And the point is that any technology advance (improved armor, compact power plants, etc) that makes the Riptide viable would be even better when applied to a heavy tank. And no, there is no threat that makes giant anime robots necessary or even a good idea.

Firstly, the Rule of Cool wins this argument alone.

Secondly, it's like you haven't even seen Pacfic Rim.

Third... who doesn't love giant robots!?

Communists... and the foul creatures of Mordor. That's my guess.

@Peregrine: Did you find anything in the actual game fluff that said that the Tau specifically "dont do stupid things like make giant anime robots"? Or is that officially now just your extrapolation of the simple lack of them previously that was more due to them being a half assed faction with a very limited model range before FW gave them some love?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TalonZahn wrote:
Well, it would be awfully hard to model nanobots.

I'm sure palladium could find a way to... as mouth watering multipiece models of course.

**Peregrine**

warboss wrote:
@Peregrine: Did you find anything in the actual game fluff that said that the Tau specifically "dont do stupid things like make giant anime robots"? Or is that officially now just your extrapolation of the simple lack of them previously that was more due to them being a half assed faction with a very limited model range before FW gave them some love?

I don't remember if it was ever explicitly stated, but it was very clear from the list of Tau units: drones, power armor scale battlesuits, light vehicles, heavy tanks/gunships, aircraft, and superheavy aircraft. The only unit class where the Tau had any bipedal units was MEQ-level. Everything else was conventional vehicles, and there wasn't even the slightest hint of giant anime robots. Even in Epic the Tau got a bunch of superheavy tanks and aircraft, and no large battlesuits.

And no, Tau weren't half-assed before the Riptide. They had a full range of models and plenty of fluff. There was no reason at all to add the Riptide or the plastic flyers, other than GW's obsessive need to have new releases even when the fluff doesn't justify them.

**warboss**

Peregrine wrote:

Yes, and prior to the idiocy of the Riptide the Tau had left that door shut. The Riptide opened it, and it's only getting worse.

Shut =/= locked as you were previously maintaining. The lack of giant stompy robots doesn't make giant stompy robots impossible; it just means that we haven't been shown them. You filled in the blanks as to why which as a fan is your completely valid choice but just don't pretend that your imagination constitutes canon. They're the newest faction in 40k in terms of fluff/creation and the second newest in terms of when they first got any models (ad mech are now the newest). It's a bit odd to think that they'd be 100% fleshed out in regards to the size of their robots just from the 2004 first codex where they stopped with broadsides. You never new what was behind that door. You may not like it and that is your right. As for the riptide, I think its an ugly model but it didn't open that door; technically the xv9 did since it is noticeably bigger than any suit before it and a visual progression between the xv8/88 (new and old) and the riptide. As long as the fluff gives a way that this new huge suit can be used with the traditional tau mobile warfare tactics (or with a new tactic although I'm not a fan of that choice myself), there is nothing in the fluff that prevents it. Hell, even the fluff that the tigershark or barracuda (can't recall which) in the Taros book that was designed to fight the biggest titans doesn't mean that is the ONLY weapon designed to do so. As stated before, the Tau are one of likely two or three races that are most conducive to actual advancement and this is simply an example of that. It's much worse comparitively in 40k for GW to come out with the various "storm" whatever fliers and the galactica fighter when for 10,000 years/25 years there was only the thunderhawk and stormbird and tech has been stagnating since. Or all the new tanks and dreadnoughts and speeders. That doesn't make much sense since there is a finite limit to how much "lost" tech the imperium can keep finding and suddenly disseminate to all 1,000 chapters and millions of IG regiments. The tau developing a previously unheard of bigger mecha when they've been for 5 years IRL developing successively bigger mecha? That MAKES sense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
warboss wrote:
@Peregrine: Did you find anything in the actual game fluff that said that the Tau specifically "dont do stupid things like make giant anime robots"? Or is that officially now just your extrapolation of the simple lack of them previously that was more due to them being a half assed faction with a very limited model range before FW gave them some love?

I don't remember if it was ever explicitly stated, but it was very clear from the list of Tau units: drones, power armor scale battlesuits, light vehicles, heavy tanks/gunships, aircraft, and superheavy aircraft. The only unit class where the Tau had any bipedal units was MEQ-level. Everything else was conventional vehicles, and there wasn't even the slightest hint of giant anime robots. Even in Epic the Tau got a bunch of superheavy tanks and aircraft, and no large battlesuits.

The simple absence of something at one point in time of a game does not preclude it for eternity. GW has steadily been increasing the size of mecha for basically as long as they've been doing ANYTHING for the tau since the original release. xv9, new broadside, new enforcer commander suit, riptide, and now this. No one is forcing you to use the new stuff but don't simply dismiss it as somehow against the fluff just because you don't like it because it isn't. In Heavy Gear, there is a similar type of discussion going on with stuff called gear striders. In that universe, it was absolutely against the fluff for the gear striders to exist when gears, striders, and traditional tanks did and it was flat out said. One small faction got the impractical unit for their own fluff reasons (and according to the original author it was supposed to be a failed experiment in game fluff that wasn't ever picked up by anyone else) but the company decided that everyone gets the big stompy robot because they sell and fluff be damned. That isn't the case here. You filled a vacuum of information with your own reasons and want to hold GW to your own imagination. Canon doesn't work that way.

**Kid_Kyoto**

On the Mastodon, here we go, some grade A 1989 fluff from the days of Adeptus Titanicus.

I found this a while back as part of a project to uncover the origins of the name Leman Russ.

Apparently GW's original visiion for Epic was the the Imperium mostly used transport tanks the size of small buildings.

**H.B.M.C.**

Be more self-aware folks. Look who you're arguing against? Do you see any sort of capitulation/concession in his future?

**davethepak**

A lot of cool models there, and happy chaos and 30k getting a lot of love.

Now, as a long time tau player - honestly, while I think its great they are investing time into tau...I don't care for that big suit.

It just looks silly - too many guns - nothing elegant about it.

I mean, how about just a scaled up xv9, or rather, how about just better rules for the tigershark? (its a VERY cool model, but the rules are just terrible...you have to love it to want to play it - I have one, and an orca).

As far as fluffy tau - I am fine with bigger suits, but really, I am fine with better rules for fast striking flyers (yes the manta is too big to use, I am working on one for a client right now) or something.

Oh well, I might be able to take the base model and convert into something that did not look like it was made by a 12 year old sticking 16 lego guns on a robot.

**JOHIRA**

Spoiler:

No words. No words at all. They should have sent a poet.

Mastodon:

Spoiler:

<sniff> Forgeworld, you understand me. Life with Games Workshop has been so hard. There have been so many disappointments. But maybe, just maybe, you could teach me to love again.

**maceria**

Tau would just imitate design trend because it works? What?

Previously established canon was very specifically that they don't imitate IOM giant robot design, because it's inefficient, a waste of resources, and there are much better options, like strapping a starship class rail gun (that they already have) on a super heavy airframe (they already have) and minimizing the time, effort, and engineering problems involved.

Titans are a giant, silly, edifice. A paragon of inefficiency for the purpose of "man, that's cool." That's the Taus thing, they don't do that. Same reason they don't hold ground, it's pointless when you can just fly away and shoot them some more.

Swift, elite, mobile, efficient. Very VERY much Heinlein Starship Troopers. That's what drew me into Tau.

It appears that GW is changing the canon, and that's fine, just like they did with the Necrons. But don't say it fits into classical Tau background without a giant ret-con.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That thunderhawk on treads is pretty cool though. Hopefully it can carry bikes, or cavalry.

**warboss**

maceria wrote:
Tau would just imitate design trend because it works? What?

Previously established canon was very specifically that they don't imitate IOM giant robot design, because it's inefficient, a waste of resources, and there are much better options, like strapping a starship class rail gun (that they already have) on a super heavy airframe (they already have) and minimizing the time, effort, and engineering problems involved.

Titans are a giant, silly, edifice. A paragon of inefficiency for the purpose of "man, that's cool." That's the Taus thing, they don't do that. Same reason they don't hold ground, it's pointless when you can just fly away and shoot them some more.

Swift, elite, mobile, efficient. Very VERY much Heinlein Starship Troopers. That's what drew me into Tau.

It appears that GW is changing the canon, and that's fine, just like they did with the Necrons. But don't say it fits into classical Tau background without a giant ret-con.

While I agree that GW is changing the canon, ANY new unit changes the canon because it creates something that previously did not exist. Can you please cite a source (book and page number) for the above? Namely the part I emphasized. It is possible that I simply missed it somewhere but the only canon I know of is that they simply use non-humanoid vehicles for certain roles, not that they specifically preclude humanoid robots for them. The rest is to my knowledge baggage added on by fans to fill the void about why the anime robots never went above a certain height... which GW has been inching at first then leaping over that fanfic justification line in the sand pretty much from the beginning. Almost every new suit they've come out with since the original 2003 release (other than variants of the original ones) has been sequentially bigger than the previous one and all of them were noticeably bigger than the original plastics that form the basis of this fanfic. The absence of something does NOT prove its illegality nor does it preclude it from ever existing in the future.

**H.B.M.C.**

The anti-titan Tigershark made no sense because it came out of nowhere (it was that book's Dues Ex Stupidia) and did not show the Tau adapting to IoM technologies. It just showed them having a ready made solution.

Bigger and stompier walkers shows them gradually adapting over time.

**Co'tor Shas**

I disagree, it was them taking already existing technology (tiger sharks and heavy rail guns) and coming up with a solution. It was designed to adapt to the problem as quickly and cheaply as possible. Mantas were already their thing which really did damage to titans. But mantas were too expensive, and not plentiful enough to be an effective solution. They adapted quickly to make a solution that fit within their combat philosophy. It's not like taping a couple of giant railguns onto a tigershark is a particularity difficult thought process.

**Enigwolf**

Melcavuk wrote:
I find the Khorne one pretty good. Imperials pay 15 points for a 6+ to all facings that doesnt work in CC. Chaos pay 50 for a 5++ to all facings, that works in CC, in addition to their ion shields, rerollable number of stomps and upto 6 attacks on the charge.

Wow I actually completely forgot that they get all the special rules for a Daemon with the Daemon Knight upgrades... Whoa.

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I disagree, it was them taking already existing technology (tiger sharks and heavy rail guns) and coming up with a solution. It was designed to adapt to the problem as quickly and cheaply as possible. Mantas were already their thing which really did damage to titans. But mantas were too expensive, and not plentiful enough to be an effective solution. They adapted quickly to make a solution that fit within their combat philosophy. It's not like taping a couple of giant railguns onto a tigershark is a particularity difficult thought process.

This kind of "bootstrapping" a solution is very prevalent in modern-day militaries, and I'm unsurprised that what we see as innovation in the defense sector in the 21st century is reflected in the 40k universe (after all, the Titanicus idea of bigger and more guns is better harks back to a day where static, heavily-armed, severely over-costed militaries took precedence over maneuver warfare and tactical operations that we see today). The Tigershark was their short-term solution to pressing needs while their Earth Caste engineers devise a counter to Imperial Titans (which, I won't be surprised, is the rationale used to explain the mega-battlesuit)