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Tydil wrote:
I had this same question just like you a while ago. At that point it was hard to find W&N brushes because of some ban, but I did find red kolinsky sable brushes from Rosemary & Co., which a lot of people on here were recommending because they believed the brushes were great quality and about half the cost of the W&N series 7 brushes. I bought some and I love them, but they are the first non-synthetic brush I've ever used. I got sizes 0, 1, and 2. The size 0 had a smaller point than any of the synthetics I found at stores and was plenty small enough for me to paint the finest detail that I wanted to paint. Also at about $6 a brush (even after shipping from UK to NY,US), they were pretty cheap compared to the $13 or more you'll spend on W&N.

So I suggest brushes from Rosemary & Co. on the basis that you will get a great first experience using natural hair brushes for a decent price, and if you turn out not to take care of your brushes as much as you should then it's not a huge loss. Think of it like your parents getting you a goldfish before a puppy.

I've seen the Rosemary review, the result is that you get less sable hair for the same numeric size, in other words you're just getting shafted and paying the exact same price you would get for a proper W&N or Raphaël brush one size under.

Avoid...

BTW my Raphaël also has a bigger body than my W&N, another good point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RunicFIN wrote:
ordered the 8404 out of interest by the way since you highlighted it.

I can't wait to hear back on that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
I tend to buy some of the cheapest brushes in bulk.
Use them til they fray and on to the next.
I don't mistreat my brushes, but I'd rather not worry about having brushes fray and spending a crapload on a replacement.

I'm a bad painter, I don't paint much and I don't have paintbrush soap.

My 8404 is like new and I've had it for a few months now, like 7 or something.

The big difference is that they just don't fray, as long as you clean them up a bit (water, soap now and then, and sometimes I toothbrush close to the metal piece to remove any paint stuck there).

Think about it, using a brush that is in awesome shape and has awesome brush properties for ten times longer, for just five times the price ? sounds good to me.

I honestly think low quality brushes are just for children to destroy, once they learn to care it doesn't make sense anymore to have a low quality brush, at least in miniature painting, an 8404 size 8 will run you a hundred bucks however. Thank god I'm not a real artist doing watercolor.

@morgoth - Thank you for the nice compliment! Also, I totally agree with the fraying and kinking. These are things that drive me nuts with cheaper brushes.

@Zewrath - That sounds about right. I go through 2 sets of W&N S7's a year, and my hobby time is about 3-4 hours a day on average (but that includes building/prepping models). The great thing with W&N S7 and Raphael 8404 brushes is that even after they're past their prime, they are still very servicable brushes. I usually give them away, and the people who receive them STILL get a good deal of use out of them.

I have a full set of Raphael 8404, from size 6/0 to size 3 (and I keep a few 6/0 spares). A couple of things about them. In my opinion, the workhorse brushes for infantry-sized miniatures (sizes 00, 0, 1) are not really better or worse than Series 7, but they are *different*.

The Raphael 8404 brushes have longer bristles, and feel like larger brushes, so much so that a size 0 from Raphael is about the same size as a size 1 from Winsor & Newton. Because the bristles are so much longer, they have a tendency to stay bent. So, as you draw a line, as the tip flexes, it will stay in that shape. In some cases, this can be desireable, but it's generally not my preference (but that's just me). They hold more paint (without being overloaded), which means that when doing edge highlighting, you can paint for longer without going back to the pallette, and that is great. I don't basecoat with round brushes, but if this is your thing, it will also go faster.

On the small end of the scale, Raphael 8404 has a 6/0 brush which is fantatastic for doing eyes and letters. The W&N S7 3/0 brush is not even remotely comparable; I think the 3/0 brush is junk, as the 2/0 brush does everything better, at least for me. Even though the ferrule is smaller on the 3/0, the bristles are so short that if you press down even a tiny bit, you get too fat a line for the purpose you'd use a 3/0 for.

As an example, on this recent model of mine, I wrote the letters "FURIOSO" on both the leg and chest with a Raphael 8404 6/0 brush using Abbadon Black thinned with about 1/3 Lahmian Medium. I got almost all of it without any correction (you can see that it's pretty clean), and this would be very hard with a W&N brush.



In general terms, I think better brushes (or the right brushes) can help make some tasks a little easier and go a little quicker. However, it contributes a tiny fraction to the end result compared to being comfortable with the tools, having confidence in your own capabilities, and the patience that comes with experience. At some point, if you paint a lot, I think you owe it to yourself to just buy the tools that you really like, whatever brand they are.

The caveat to this is that while we are learning many of us tend to have bad habits and low patience threshold - and end up treating our brushes badly. If we're going to do that, we might as well kill cheap brushes, right?

 Talys wrote:

On the small end of the scale, Raphael 8404 has a 6/0 brush which is fantatastic for doing eyes and letters. The W&N S7 3/0 brush is not even remotely comparable; I think the 3/0 brush is junk, as the 2/0 brush does everything better, at least for me. Even though the ferrule is smaller on the 3/0, the bristles are so short that if you press down even a tiny bit, you get too fat a line for the purpose you'd use a 3/0 for.

As an example, on this recent model of mine, I wrote the letters "FURIOSO" on both the leg and chest with a Raphael 8404 6/0 brush using Abbadon Black thinned with about 1/3 Lahmian Medium. I got almost all of it without any correction (you can see that it's pretty clean), and this would be very hard with a W&N brush.

Spoiler:

That Furioso is freakin great man, I love that.

So what I got from what you said there was that the longer Raphael 8404 6/0 model was easier to do super fine detail (text), whereas the tip would bend a little too much if you were doing normal painting or semi small stuff, but not superfine? Am I reading that right? I'm trying to make sure I understand so I get a better feel for what type of brush would be best for different situations based on the suggestions here.

@Phyrekzhogos - Thank you!!

I should clarify -- Raphael 8404 comes in 6/0, 3/0, 0, 1, 2+, whereas the W&N S7 comes in 3/0, 2/0, 0, 1, 2+

The 8404 0, 1, and 2 are much bigger brushes (you get more sable hair, that's for sure) compared to the same brushes by W&N. These are also the brushes that are "bendy" in my opinion.

The 3/0 8404 is humongous compared to the 3/0 S7 -- in fact, I'd say the 3/0 is only a tiny bit smaller than a size 0 round from W&N. It is not very bendy.

The 6/0 8404 is a tiny, tiny brush. Think, high-end version of Army Painter "Insane Detail" brush, or 10/0 or 20/0 from Royal. The difference is, it actually holds paint when it's not overloaded; with a synthetic 20/0 brush, there are practically no bristles, so half the time, when you get the brush to the surface, the tiny bit of paint is already dried; and even if it's not, you get half a letter, because there wasn't much paint to start with. With the 8404 6/0, I can reliably do writing using thinned (or drying retarder diluted) paint. Basically, I get 1 stroke each trip to the palette, like a vertical stroke on an R, then the rounded part, the then the downstroke, so 3 trips to the palette.

With the 3/0 W&N the problem (for me) is that I lose control and I get a tick ugly line if I press down even a tiny fraction. Maybe it's ok for someone with better skills

The 2/0 W&N is an awesome brush; I love this brush for 99% of my fine detail work, including visors, gems, freehand, feathers, all that kind of thing. Basically, everything other than writing and eyes.

Edit: What am I doing... picture is worth many words

Here are the brushes side-by-side. You can see what I mean about size -- the Raphael sz. 1 is practically the size of the W&N Size 2, and the size 3/0's aren't even close. You can also see why the W&N Size 3/0 is hard to use for fine details -- press down a little, and you get a fat brushstroke (compare that with the 6/0 8404).



For those who are curious, this is what my brushes look like after 6 months to 1 year of use, at least 500+ hours of painting, probably closer to 1000. You can see the handles are all quite worn (from brush soap... lol), but the bristles are in great shape.



For those who are curious as to what the brushes I keep close to me are -- here is what I have out. There are more drybrushes, but it's more of the same; it's because when I do terrain and such, I want to have a fresh (dry) brush to use while the other ones dry after being cleaned or changing color. Ignore that Citadel standard brush. I never use it.

 Talys wrote:
@Phyrekzhogos - Thank you!!

I should clarify -- Raphael 8404 comes in 6/0, 3/0, 0, 1, 2+, whereas the W&N S7 comes in 3/0, 2/0, 0, 1, 2+

The 8404 0, 1, and 2 are much bigger brushes (you get more sable hair, that's for sure) compared to the same brushes by W&N. These are also the brushes that are "bendy" in my opinion.

The 3/0 8404 is humongous compared to the 3/0 S7 -- in fact, I'd say the 3/0 is only a tiny bit smaller than a size 0 round from W&N. It is not very bendy.

The 6/0 8404 is a tiny, tiny brush. Think, high-end version of Army Painter "Insane Detail" brush, or 10/0 or 20/0 from Royal. The difference is, it actually holds paint when it's not overloaded; with a synthetic 20/0 brush, there are practically no bristles, so half the time, when you get the brush to the surface, the tiny bit of paint is already dried; and even if it's not, you get half a letter, because there wasn't much paint to start with. With the 8404 6/0, I can reliably do writing using thinned (or drying retarder diluted) paint. Basically, I get 1 stroke each trip to the palette, like a vertical stroke on an R, then the rounded part, the then the downstroke, so 3 trips to the palette.

With the 3/0 W&N the problem (for me) is that I lose control and I get a tick ugly line if I press down even a tiny fraction. Maybe it's ok for someone with better skills

The 2/0 W&N is an awesome brush; I love this brush for 99% of my fine detail work, including visors, gems, freehand, feathers, all that kind of thing. Basically, everything other than writing and eyes.

Edit: What am I doing... picture is worth many words

Here are the brushes side-by-side. You can see what I mean about size -- the Raphael sz. 1 is practically the size of the W&N Size 2, and the size 3/0's aren't even close. You can also see why the W&N Size 3/0 is hard to use for fine details -- press down a little, and you get a fat brushstroke (compare that with the 6/0 8404).



For those who are curious, this is what my brushes look like after 6 months to 1 year of use, at least 500+ hours of painting, probably closer to 1000. You can see the handles are all quite worn (from brush soap... lol), but the bristles are in great shape.

Spoiler:

For those who are curious as to what the brushes I keep close to me are -- here is what I have out. There are more drybrushes, but it's more of the same; it's because when I do terrain and such, I want to have a fresh (dry) brush to use while the other ones dry after being cleaned or changing color. Ignore that Citadel standard brush. I never use it.

Spoiler:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/688559-Working%20Paintbrushes.html?m=2

Thanks man, that's all extremely helpful info. I appreciate all the extra explanation. I'm hoping I can make good use of all of that soon

So uhm, I only have a Raphaël 8404 size 1 and 2 and the S7 size 1, which brushes should I get next to make the most of the money I put in brushes ?

I use these for everything so I don't have different ones for metallics or washes - I don't dry brush with them of course, but I use a synthetic brush for that (nylon afaik).

By the way, when you say bendy, I say snappy, I find that the snap of the 8404 gives me a great feel and actually more control than a brush that would not bend the same, this may be why I have trouble with the S7 right now, which by your account is a lot snappier then ?

morgoth wrote:
So uhm, I only have a Raphaël 8404 size 1 and 2 and the S7 size 1, which brushes should I get next to make the most of the money I put in brushes ?

I use these for everything so I don't have different ones for metallics or washes - I don't dry brush with them of course, but I use a synthetic brush for that (nylon afaik).

By the way, when you say bendy, I say snappy, I find that the snap of the 8404 gives me a great feel and actually more control than a brush that would not bend the same, this may be why I have trouble with the S7 right now, which by your account is a lot snappier then ?

I think that S7 is snappier -- but this is totally preference. Whatever feels good to you is what you should invest in, in my opinion.

I think the place for you to go is smaller brushes. Raphael size 1 is really quite a large brush (see my pic above). I'd suggest getting the next two sizes down, 0, and 3/0, which are a natural extension to your tools. They work the same way, except you will be able to do finer details with more ease. If you enjoy doing things like fully painting in eyes, I think the 6/0 is worth getting.

The next size down to get after that is a 2/0 Winsor & Newton S7; in my opinion, that does better detail work than an 8404 3/0. But, if you aren't used to using the smaller brushes anyhow, you will probably find that great details are achievable with the 0 and 3/0 sizes.

If you paint long, fine lines that don't involve dragging a brush against a hard edge (like on the panels of a DE raider), or if you need to pick out little details where too much paint can be disastrous (like a face) these brushes really shine.

I'm using some Rosemary and Co brushes and some Winsor & Newton series 7. The latter are better tbh, but not by much. Rosemary and Co also do a miniature painting set that's decent. I'd suggest getting brush soap too! Stuff's invaluable for increasing brush life!

Well, here's a few miniatures painted with chinese synthetics costing 40 cents a piece. Only manual brushwork:



Note that these are my gaming models however, I've never done a "showcase" piece. One day I intend to ( I 'll be reserving the 8404's ordered after Morgoths recommendation for that puppy. ) Anyways, pretty much like Talys said, in the end it only becomes preference. But for someone wanting to learn, you are infact better off with quality tools.

That's weird, I was already doing eyes (just a black dot, not with color) with the Raphaël #1.


I just placed an order for the 0, 3/0 and 6/0 ... I hope they'll be as useful as the first ones.

Vote for Rosemary and co series 33 here.

Like Newts, but half the price here in the UK.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Just started pondering something that never occurred to me, are the sables ( animals ) killed to make a paint brush? I hope not for that sole purpose atleast.

Unfortunately not. That is why I am a big fan of GWs yet to be released sable brushes, they actually skin the sable alive for the freshest hair available.

As a new painter I'm looked at the army painter brushes for 5-6 bucks each. Mind you they do not have a number code like the Newton brushes. What would be the equivalent of a #00 or #0 in the army painter brands?

 evilsunzacademy wrote:
Vote for Rosemary and co series 33 here.

Like Newts, but half the price here in the UK.

They are not like W&N, they're a cheaper alternative with less sable hair and next to no track record.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redflex wrote:
As a new painter I'm looked at the army painter brushes for 5-6 bucks each. Mind you they do not have a number code like the Newton brushes. What would be the equivalent of a #00 or #0 in the army painter brands?

If you want to learn to paint miniatures and don't want to spend much money, it's better to get just one good brush, like a #1 W&N or a #0 Raphaël 8404. This will let you do much more than if you had bought a "fine detail" and "detail" brush from army painter or GW, while costing the same thing and lasting longer. Don't forget that every minute you spend with a bad brush is a minute partially spent acquiring the "manage bad paintbrush" skill.

The one thing that's worth getting from GW or AP is probably the drybrush, which doesn't exist in awesome quality afaik.

I know most of the serious competition painters have stopped using W&N brushes since they moved manufacturing to China. Quite a few of them in the US are using Schaff series 3000 brushes these days.

Wow, a fresh-faced new user supporting an airbrush store from New-York, this absolutely totally does not look like content marketing at all.

What do you think guys ? should we all run there and buy stuff ? YAY!

debrartin wrote:
Recently I have learning airbrush painting. To make some nice paint I have picket up airbrush with compressor from (http://www.artistsupplysource.com/category/50859/airbrushing/) store in New-York. It is very nice one. I like it.

Not too sure what a Airbrush has to do with the context of this thread?
'

Karnophage wrote:
I know most of the serious competition painters have stopped using W&N brushes since they moved manufacturing to China. Quite a few of them in the US are using Schaff series 3000 brushes these days.

Except, that isn't true. They are made in England.

Current webpage (3/19/2015): http://www.winsornewton.com/na/shop/brushes



Box of special order imported at Christmas 2014:



Edit:

By the way, I'm pretty sure you mean SCHARFF Series 3000 brushes. I bought one of these when Secret Weapon Miniatures switched to them (from Raphael). They are similar to 8404 brushes in terms of the bristles. Many people have commented that they have lighter handles than most other brushes (which doesn't bother me). I prefer the bristle length and snap of a standard (not miniature) Series 7, which is why I generally use S7 brushes. One plus about the handles is that they seem to have less finishing stuff on them, and seem more resistant to my favorite brush cleaners (the W&N liquid cleaner) -- but that isn't important enough an advantage for me to choose them as my main brush.

Also, I believe they are cheaper when purchased directly from the manufacturer than from SWM (or they were for a while, anyhow).

morgoth wrote:
[R&Co.] are not like W&N, they're a cheaper alternative with less sable hair and next to no track record.

[Obi-wan]The Force (of bias) is strong with this one.[/Obi-wan]

Length of bristles, diameter of belly, etc. varies across all brands and size numbering isn't even close to rigidly standardized. There's no reason "less sable hair" should be a deal-breaker, unless taken to absolute extremes (priced comparably to our competitors' smallest offering, but with only three hairs, you can paint the finest details!). A point made in your previous post on pricing suggests you haven't really looked into their products. You aren't getting "shafted" by getting less hair and, especially at the smaller end of the brush spectrum, differences of a single size don't generally mean that much of a change to hair count or price. We're talking cents/pence to go up one size, which is way less than the increase in cost a S.7 or 8404 (the only "proper" brushes, right?) represents. You can have your preferences - anyone who paints enough develops them - but suggesting that they're not even comparable does them an unjust disservice, IMO. They're simply not identical.

As for their track record, there are plenty of favorable (and a few less than enthusiastic, which are still helpful if the reviewer goes into detail about their dislikes) reviews of R&Co. brushes, both on Dakka and elsewhere. I've read a hell of lot more about them than I have about Scharffs, for example. Series 7s have been touted as the be all and end all of miniature painting brushes for years - considering how much information comes from people who bought their own brushes based on those recommendations, let alone what is just regurgitated hearsay, it's unsurprising that there's more about them out there. Seriess 33s simply aren't some unknown new release from an upstart cottage manufacturer, as it seems you're suggesting. Rosemary & Company is an established brush manufacturer (young, by comparison to W&N, but so are most companies) that is simply operating at a smaller scale and has only in the last few years started to penetrate this little corner of the market.

[ ...aaaaand dismount]

_our_ competitors?

Yeah, as in, "hey, here's the BS (definitely not ballistic skill) pitch from a fictitious salesman for an exaggerratedly bad product. This is what we, the imaginary company that serves some guy on a message board's point in this example, offer."

Thought the "three hairs" bit would have been sufficient to suggest hyperbole, but perhaps I should have made it clearer that I pulled that out of... somewhere. I have no affiliation with any company beyond my employer, who is definitely not Rosemary & Company. Don't think they even have US distributors, let alone a office, here.

That said, I'd totally ramp up my support of the company in exchange for free product. Same offer stands for W&N, Raphael, and just about any company that might read this.

 oadie wrote:

morgoth wrote:
[R&Co.] are not like W&N, they're a cheaper alternative with less sable hair and next to no track record.

[Obi-wan]The Force (of bias) is strong with this one.[/Obi-wan]

Length of bristles, diameter of belly, etc. varies across all brands and size numbering isn't even close to rigidly standardized. There's no reason "less sable hair" should be a deal-breaker, unless taken to absolute extremes (priced comparably to our competitors' smallest offering, but with only three hairs, you can paint the finest details!). A point made in your previous post on pricing suggests you haven't really looked into their products. You aren't getting "shafted" by getting less hair and, especially at the smaller end of the brush spectrum, differences of a single size don't generally mean that much of a change to hair count or price. We're talking cents/pence to go up one size, which is way less than the increase in cost a S.7 or 8404 (the only "proper" brushes, right?) represents. You can have your preferences - anyone who paints enough develops them - but suggesting that they're not even comparable does them an unjust disservice, IMO. They're simply not identical.

As for their track record, there are plenty of favorable (and a few less than enthusiastic, which are still helpful if the reviewer goes into detail about their dislikes) reviews of R&Co. brushes, both on Dakka and elsewhere. I've read a hell of lot more about them than I have about Scharffs, for example. Series 7s have been touted as the be all and end all of miniature painting brushes for years - considering how much information comes from people who bought their own brushes based on those recommendations, let alone what is just regurgitated hearsay, it's unsurprising that there's more about them out there. Seriess 33s simply aren't some unknown new release from an upstart cottage manufacturer, as it seems you're suggesting. Rosemary & Company is an established brush manufacturer (young, by comparison to W&N, but so are most companies) that is simply operating at a smaller scale and has only in the last few years started to penetrate this little corner of the market.

[ ...aaaaand dismount]

Ok, so you like em. Good for you.

Here's my take: even a S7 or 8404 is incredibly cheap (compared to paint and the rest of the hobby), why would I bother with a company that makes brushes no competition painter uses when I don't have to ?

This is not like the best known brushes were really more expensive, the Rosemary is what 3 bucks less ? who the feth wants an unknown brush from an unknown manufacturer when it costs little more to have the best known brush ?

That's my point, I have not tried Rosemary and I will not try them, I have however read reviews from people who have used them, and the fact that they sell less sable hair than even S7 for the same size looks to me like they're trying to make up for their cheaper price, and yes the amount of hair on your brush does matter, even though prices aren't lower for the sizes from 0 downwards.

morgoth wrote:


Ok, so you like em. Good for you.

Here's my take: even a S7 or 8404 is incredibly cheap (compared to paint and the rest of the hobby), why would I bother with a company that makes brushes no competition painter uses when I don't have to ?

This is not like the best known brushes were really more expensive, the Rosemary is what 3 bucks less ? who the feth wants an unknown brush from an unknown manufacturer when it costs little more to have the best known brush ?

That's my point, I have not tried Rosemary and I will not try them, I have however read reviews from people who have used them, and the fact that they sell less sable hair than even S7 for the same price looks to me like they're trying to make up for their cheaper price, and yes the amount of hair on your brush does matter, even though prices aren't lower for the sizes from 0 downwards.

Don't normally jump into other peoples arguments, but you sir are talking out of ones ass.

http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/brushes/water-colour/series-7-kolinsky-sable-brushes/series-7-kolinsky-sable-brush-round-short-handle-size-000-brush-5007030

http://www.rosemaryandco.com/watercolour-brushes/pure-kolinsky-sable/pure-kolinsky-pointed

Manufacturers r.r.p any discounts form 3rd party retailers do not count.
For a start, R&C actually offer a size chart, they are telling you explicitly what size ferrule and bristle length your buying. W&N do not seem to.
But when a 000 pointed round series 7 costs 10.25
And you can have a size 6 series 33 pointed round for £7.90

in what stretch of your imagineation are R&C selling you less hair fort he same money?
Please just do some reasearch or be quiet.

You are entitled to an opinion, but when its based in fairy land I will call you on it.

edit ~ for the record I've got both. And actually do prefer R&C's offerings across the board. Were cheaper enough for me to get a selection of sizes that W&N dont even make.

I dunno guys. I buy bulk packs of cheapo brushes and they see regular use. I've moved onto using flats for most everything. My $12 kolinsky brush has never been used because the damned thing came with an errant hair. I used it once to do an eye lenses, and ended up with unexpected eyebrows.

So the "good" brushes can be gak too. Here is a tip. Inspect the brush before you buy. I tried to return my $12 brush and failed because don't you know? Kolinsky is the best, I must not know how to use a brush properly!

So now I buy cheap ass brushes and feel zero remorse. Models look just fine and I'm not worried about whether I get my moneys worth.

Come to think of it, I've been using the same pack of brushes all year! Maybe its less to do with the brush and more about proper cleanup and brush care?

HairySticks wrote:

in what stretch of your imagineation are R&C selling you less hair fort he same money?

Two things my dear friend:

1. I don't believe R&C sell less hair for the same money, I am deeply sorry for any misunderstanding that could have arisen due to my poor wording. What I intended to convey was that although they were indeed cheaper, they also had less hair on the same numeric size brushes, which could be one way to look at the value of the brush itself. I was however not aware that they could be procured for as little as 6.43 euros RRP for a size 2 (like a size 0 or 1 raphaël), I thought it was more 7 to 7.5, not a big difference though and that doesn't change my personal conclusion.

2. There's a spelling correction tool included, please make use of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
I dunno guys. I buy bulk packs of cheapo brushes and they see regular use. I've moved onto using flats for most everything. My $12 kolinsky brush has never been used because the damned thing came with an errant hair. I used it once to do an eye lenses, and ended up with unexpected eyebrows.

That sounds like high tech painting, tweaking your brushes to get free eyebrows.

Normally, you will only have errant hairs because the brush wasn't repackaged properly by somebody who removed the straw, then put it back on, locking one hair on the side.

In that case, you should be able to just get it back into shape by remaking the point with your lips and leaving the brush to sit for a while.

Once it has set in that position thanks to the saliva, and remained like that for a while, it's unlikely the hair is going to go back to its anarchist ways.

 oadie wrote:

Length of bristles, diameter of belly, etc. varies across all brands and size numbering isn't even close to rigidly standardized. There's no reason "less sable hair" should be a deal-breaker, unless taken to absolute extremes (priced comparably to our competitors' smallest offering, but with only three hairs, you can paint the finest details!). A point made in your previous post on pricing suggests you haven't really looked into their products. You aren't getting "shafted" by getting less hair and, especially at the smaller end of the brush spectrum, differences of a single size don't generally mean that much of a change to hair count or price. We're talking cents/pence to go up one size, which is way less than the increase in cost a S.7 or 8404 (the only "proper" brushes, right?) represents. You can have your preferences - anyone who paints enough develops them - but suggesting that they're not even comparable does them an unjust disservice, IMO. They're simply not identical.

Oadie has it exactly right, here. The brushes are different, not necessarily better. The goal is not to optimize the amount of sable hair per dollar... it's to find the most efficient brush for doing a particular task, and amongst good quality brushes, at least 50% of that is simply preference that's either arbitrary or due to technique. My suggestion is to try a few, use what you like, and don't criticize other people for liking something else.

@HairySticks - it's a little unfair to compare brushes from MSRP to manufacturer-discounted, because some manufacturers prefer to sell direct (in which case they discount from their website) while others prefer to sell through distribution, or at least not undercut their resellers. A reasonable (and common) discount to Winsor & Newton is 20% from the MSRP. Scharff (artbrush.com) and Rosemary, I think, commonly discount. But part of that is because if you walk into a fine arts store, the likelihood of finding a S7 brush is high, while the likelihood of finding a Series 3000 Scharff is low.

Which is a whole other thing: personally, I prefer a series of paintbrushes that are locally stocked, because I don't always have spares of everything, and being able to walk into a store and buy a replacement (or another size, whatever) is of some value. It is also, frankly, a reason I don't use Reaper paints -- they are only sold by 1 store, and their stock gets pretty old; whereas Vallejo is in a couple of stores, P3 is in 3 or 4 stores, and Citadel is in every store that matters.

 Talys wrote:

Which is a whole other thing: personally, I prefer a series of paintbrushes that are locally stocked, because I don't always have spares of everything, and being able to walk into a store and buy a replacement (or another size, whatever) is of some value. It is also, frankly, a reason I don't use Reaper paints -- they are only sold by 1 store, and their stock gets pretty old; whereas Vallejo is in a couple of stores, P3 is in 3 or 4 stores, and Citadel is in every store that matters.

I think the closest store that might have 8404 or S7 would be 30 minutes away, I never checked because I prefer to order online.

However the paint problem is huge, most of the paints I buy (GW) are at least a year (or two) old when I get them it's really something I would like to avoid dealing with.

Even with 20% off the rrp, rosemary and co still are cheaper by quite a long way.

A size 6 r&c is still cheaper than a size 000 w&n even with 20% off the w&n and nothing off the r&c.
I was comparing the recommended price from both manufacturers directly. Seems perfectly fair (although r&c dont seem to supply stockists that I'm aware of).

Theres actually not a spell check function included as part of the forum. That may be part of your browser? Apologies to the sp&gr nazi's for mis spelling while calling you on dis-information.
Nice 180 on your stance though You did specifically suggest that R&C were a ripoff because theyre giving you less hair for the same money. Which is 100% not the case. I called you on it ~ to avoid the dis information being spread. That is all,

If you start correcting peoples grammar and spelling.... You've already lost.

I would like to buy brushes locally since I like to see the brush before I buy it. The only problem is there is no one in the area that sells Kolinski Sable brushes due to the problems importing them to the States. The Scharff brushes are the easiest ones to get currently.