Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 15:02:22
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
|
Hello, I am a dedicated servant of da dark gods, who just picked up IA:13 and is thinking of starting a renegade army. I noticed that most good renegade vehicles went for around 60-70 points to 100-115pts. Is this the average for most races? I play currently CSM and a "good" standard vehicle goes for are 150 points average. Do the other races really get vehicle for around 60-115 or is that just a renegade thing?
p.s. I'm writing in the morning so sorry for the incoherent grammar.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 15:06:06
[Khorne Daemonkin Warband] 4/4/0 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 15:09:42
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Nope. It's CSM's crappiness showing.
Wave Serpents are 115.
Riptides are ~180.
Rhinos are 35.
All are good vehicles.
|
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 15:12:05
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun
|
Let us not forget the godly Sicaran Battle Tank for mere 135pts. Take three  But they are FW, so you may not count those. However, I still find that the best vehicle in the game is the drop pod. Save, precise, highly obnoxious and great at holding objectives and can serve as great anti-horde if you have a few points to spare (Deathwind Launchers) for mere 35-50pts.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 15:12:21
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 15:52:13
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
Renegade tanks are usually 10pts cheaper than guard equivalents due to bs2. Due to IA:13, CSM actually now get decently priced vehicles. A guard executioner is 155pts (14/13/11), whilst the pred equivalent is 105pts (13/11/11). The Sicaran is also good points value. And the dreadclaw is just amazing.
Also the vehicles around the 60pt mark (chimeras/slamanders) aren't exactly the same level as a pred.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 16:49:43
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
|
Ye that's why I also wrote this thread thinking that the CSM vehicles in the IA:13 were under priced! How wrong was I!
|
[Khorne Daemonkin Warband] 4/4/0 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 17:37:08
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Devastating Dark Reaper
|
115 base. 145 the way most people run them. I don't disagree with you re: CSM's crappiness showing, though.
|
Hige sceal þē heardra || heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre || þē ūre mægen lytlað. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 21:43:18
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Drakhun
|
Immersturm wrote:Let us not forget the godly Sicaran Battle Tank for mere 135pts. Take three
But they are FW, so you may not count those.
However, I still find that the best vehicle in the game is the drop pod. Save, precise, highly obnoxious and great at holding objectives and can serve as great anti-horde if you have a few points to spare (Deathwind Launchers) for mere 35-50pts.
Except the Sicaran is an infernal relic, unless you're rocking a specific HQ you can't take more than one. Two of them are pretty bad too.
|
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 21:51:55
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
dragoonmaster101 wrote:Hello, I am a dedicated servant of da dark gods, who just picked up IA:13 and is thinking of starting a renegade army. I noticed that most good renegade vehicles went for around 60-70 points to 100-115pts. Is this the average for most races? I play currently CSM and a "good" standard vehicle goes for are 150 points average. Do the other races really get vehicle for around 60-115 or is that just a renegade thing?
p.s. I'm writing in the morning so sorry for the incoherent grammar.
Most of the Renegade vehicles are IG vehicles, and are discounted due to BS2.
A lot of them could still be considered not particularly great buys as they're not particularly good in IG armies either even though otherwise cheap, though some obviously make out better.
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 22:07:40
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren
|
150 points is the cost of an average battle tank.
given that the wave serpent is just that, it is obviously a lot costlier than most transport vehicles (35-100)
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 22:11:20
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
Sir Arun wrote:150 points is the cost of an average battle tank.
given that the wave serpent is just that, it is obviously a lot costlier than most transport vehicles (35-100)
The problem is that it's an excellent transport on top of having firepower equal to (or often exceeding that) of many battle tanks of similar or greater cost (compare a Scatterlaser+Shuricannon WS to a Leman Russ Exterminator with kit against infantry and light/medium vehicle targets and you'll see what i mean), with a much greater availability than said battle tanks and not taking up HS FoC slots.
The Wave Serpent also isn't supposed to be a battle tank, it's supposed to be an IFV, like a Chimera. The Falcon and Fire Prism are battle tanks, and that's why they're in the Heavy Support section.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 22:12:08
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/15 22:12:44
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Venoms are 65 usually, SM are even cheaper (aside the LR, which is hardly seen). Even the Tyranid Pod is 75 pts.
Only thing which I can think is up there is the 130 pt Nightscythe, but that's an amazing transport in it's on right.
I guess Battlewagons too.
|
YMDC = nightmare |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 02:01:37
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
|
Raider is 85, venom 65, Devilfish WAAAAYY to pricey in my opinion but since 7th hit they might be okay again, they're like 120+ points when kitted out and will ony have a few okay guns.
If it makes you feel better Tau have a 2000pt transport...
|
10k+ Tau, Ke'lshan
10k Dark Eldar Kabal of the Flayed skull
1k Scions
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 02:51:51
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
NauticalKendall wrote:Raider is 85, venom 65, Devilfish WAAAAYY to pricey in my opinion but since 7th hit they might be okay again, they're like 120+ points when kitted out and will ony have a few okay guns.
I think the most expensive devilfish you'll see is EDIT: 105pts, able to jink for a 3+ cover save in the open, with 8 S5 shots (4 of them Twin Linked and that don't need LoS) and have side hatches and better-than-10 side armor. Seems pretty solid to me. You'd have to be *really* overloading on wargear to get them to be 120pts+.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 03:34:03
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 03:00:55
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
|
The devilfish is definitely overpriced. Not to the point where you will never see it, but it isn't taken anywhere as commonly as other transports. Not only that, it's pretty damn big, making it harder to hide behind cover.
|
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 03:03:02
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader
|
The best vehicles in the game are 35-115 base. CSM are kind of terrible. I do admire the perseverance of chaos players though. Sometimes I wonder if they're as masochistic as the army they play.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 03:07:47
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
Co'tor Shas wrote:The devilfish is definitely overpriced. Not to the point where you will never see it, but it isn't taken anywhere as commonly as other transports. Not only that, it's pretty damn big, making it harder to hide behind cover.
You don't need it as much in a Tau army, with primarily shooting-oriented troops, sporting long ranges and S5 basic guns, they don't really need a transport to get to grips with the enemy unlike many other units.
I'd certainly take them over Chimeras if I could
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 03:16:28
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
|
Vaktathi wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:The devilfish is definitely overpriced. Not to the point where you will never see it, but it isn't taken anywhere as commonly as other transports. Not only that, it's pretty damn big, making it harder to hide behind cover.
You don't need it as much in a Tau army, with primarily shooting-oriented troops, sporting long ranges and S5 basic guns, they don't really need a transport to get to grips with the enemy unlike many other units.
I'd certainly take them over Chimeras if I could
The base devilish costs 80 points, 75% the cost of a full FW squad. Add SMS and disruption pod, and you are up to 105 points, 97% the price. That's for a large transport, that isn't really very tough. It has OK shooting, but not for the cost. You might as well get another squad of fire warriors at that point.
|
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 03:33:00
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
Co'tor Shas wrote: Vaktathi wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:The devilfish is definitely overpriced. Not to the point where you will never see it, but it isn't taken anywhere as commonly as other transports. Not only that, it's pretty damn big, making it harder to hide behind cover.
You don't need it as much in a Tau army, with primarily shooting-oriented troops, sporting long ranges and S5 basic guns, they don't really need a transport to get to grips with the enemy unlike many other units.
I'd certainly take them over Chimeras if I could
The base devilish costs 80 points, 75% the cost of a full FW squad. Add SMS and disruption pod, and you are up to 105 points, 97% the price. That's for a large transport, that isn't really very tough. It has OK shooting, but not for the cost. You might as well get another squad of fire warriors at that point.
For 105pts, it's not as much shooting at 18" and under as you'd get out of a FW squad, but a lot of it is higher quality (twin linked and doesn't need LoS), more mobile, and generally much more survivable. It's not super-economical, but it's hard to see it as grossly overcosted. especially when its necessity is not as strong as with other armies.
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 03:53:45
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
|
Vaktathi wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote: Vaktathi wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:The devilfish is definitely overpriced. Not to the point where you will never see it, but it isn't taken anywhere as commonly as other transports. Not only that, it's pretty damn big, making it harder to hide behind cover.
You don't need it as much in a Tau army, with primarily shooting-oriented troops, sporting long ranges and S5 basic guns, they don't really need a transport to get to grips with the enemy unlike many other units.
I'd certainly take them over Chimeras if I could
The base devilish costs 80 points, 75% the cost of a full FW squad. Add SMS and disruption pod, and you are up to 105 points, 97% the price. That's for a large transport, that isn't really very tough. It has OK shooting, but not for the cost. You might as well get another squad of fire warriors at that point.
For 105pts, it's not as much shooting at 18" and under as you'd get out of a FW squad, but a lot of it is higher quality (twin linked and doesn't need LoS), more mobile, and generally much more survivable. It's not super-economical, but it's hard to see it as grossly overcosted. especially when its necessity is not as strong as with other armies.
It will get (on average) 3 SMS hits. It can get another 2 hits within 18", front arc. The firepower of the devilfish is not something to be feared. It also doesn't have any fire points (unlike the the chimera or rhino).
This is something made to transport troops, that ends up being as valuable as the troops is is transporting. It will die to any sort of anti-armour weapon (or even just a few of medium strength weapons). It is a pretty sizable vehicle that it is on a flying stand.
It's not a bad unit, just too expensive for the job it is intended to do.
|
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 05:51:56
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
Toofast wrote:The best vehicles in the game are 35-115 base. CSM are kind of terrible. I do admire the perseverance of chaos players though. Sometimes I wonder if they're as masochistic as the army they play.
Not always. Knights are close to 400pts, as is a typhon. Both of which I would consider more worth their points than any vehicle between 35-115pts. Also ork buggies with tl rokkits are amazing at 25pts.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 05:52:27
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 06:03:34
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren
|
The great thing about the devilfish is that if you slap a disruption pod on it and jink, it gets a 3+ cover save. Try doing 3 HPs damage with a 3+ cvr. save. The thing is, when I jink I dont have to feel miffed about reduced firepower at all, since the devilfish isnt meant to be a battle tank.
But it can be gold in getting my troops to objectives and such...handy in maelstrom missions
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 06:04:07
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 06:34:08
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
!!Goffik Rocker!!
|
CSM vehicles are fine and costed appropriately other than a mad crab and a shooty dinosaur that are pretty overpriced. IA13 grants accesss to some nasty things. 10 pt discount wiverns, 25 ppm walkers - get a squadron of 5 with heavy flamers or stock - they're golden, sicarans, etc.
Comparing stuff to serpents is not leading anywhere. Compare to reasonable stuff.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 06:37:56
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 16:35:51
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
|
In the BA 5th ed codex, a razorback is worth 55, a rhino 50, a drop pod 35.
|
INSANE army lists still available!!!! Now being written in 8th edition format! I have Index Imperium 1, Index Imperium 2, Index Xenos 2, Codex Orks Codex Tyranids, Codex Blood Angels and Codex Space Marines!
PM me for an INSANE (100K+ points) if you desire.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/16 17:21:26
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
koooaei wrote:CSM vehicles are fine and costed appropriately other than a mad crab and a shooty dinosaur that are pretty overpriced. IA13 grants accesss to some nasty things. 10 pt discount wiverns, 25 ppm walkers - get a squadron of 5 with heavy flamers or stock - they're golden, sicarans, etc.
Comparing stuff to serpents is not leading anywhere. Compare to reasonable stuff.
20ppm walkers ;-). Automatically Appended Next Post:
The razorback upgrade costs were steep though. And paying a forced 15pts for useless fast on a rhino was a complete rip-off!
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 17:23:05
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/17 05:22:37
Subject: Re:Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
!!Goffik Rocker!!
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/18 15:15:08
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds
|
I'm just really delving into CSM's, my first love is orks. I kind of disagree with the overall opinion of " CSM crappiness". I grant the Codex isn't the easiest roster, but once you add IA:13 I feel as if it's a decent army.
The biggest problem is that Chaos vehicles seem to be very specialized, and they aren't quite the one stop shop that wave serpents and other multi-purpopse vehicles are, nor do I think they're supposed to be.
Chaos transports are transports. The Rhino and Dreadclaw do their job for relatively decent points values. One could argue that the Dreadclaw is over priced, but those folks are thinking it's just a drop pod, instead of a hovering, fast moving assault transport.
The tanks and air support all become very specialized in their uses. They excel at anti-infantry, or anti-vehicle, but never really both. I think it's just the relatively unforgiving nature of being a CSM.
Kinda like playing orks, only you can't take as many casualties if you screw up
|
Night Lord XIII Company: 6,600 Points, 12W-4L
Skaven Cheese-stealer Renegade Cult: 2,000 points, 0-0
Warboss Spine Squisha's Ork Warband: 3,000 Points, 1W-3L
Carcharadons Astra: 2000 Points, 11-2
Drukhari: 1250 Points, 2-0
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/18 15:42:06
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Drakhun
|
Kajaki War Pig wrote:I'm just really delving into CSM's, my first love is orks. I kind of disagree with the overall opinion of " CSM crappiness". I grant the Codex isn't the easiest roster, but once you add IA:13 I feel as if it's a decent army.
The biggest problem is that Chaos vehicles seem to be very specialized, and they aren't quite the one stop shop that wave serpents and other multi-purpopse vehicles are, nor do I think they're supposed to be.
Chaos transports are transports. The Rhino and Dreadclaw do their job for relatively decent points values. One could argue that the Dreadclaw is over priced, but those folks are thinking it's just a drop pod, instead of a hovering, fast moving assault transport.
The tanks and air support all become very specialized in their uses. They excel at anti-infantry, or anti-vehicle, but never really both. I think it's just the relatively unforgiving nature of being a CSM.
Kinda like playing orks, only you can't take as many casualties if you screw up 
The best part about the Dreadclaw is that you get to assault from your pod. You drop down and declare heat blast so the models inside cannot disembark. They spend a turn inside their little claw drinking tea, then next turn they can charge out of it.
But the fact that you need IA models to make the tanks of the CSM codex better says a lot.
|
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/18 15:51:31
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
I just wrote up comparison of a Devilfish and a toned-down Serpent (6" shield shooting, 3+ pen downgrade, 100pts stock, costlier heavy weapons) in the Eldar codex thread in proposed rules. I also compared it to the Necron equivalent.
Devilfish's biggest problem would be that its really only useful for not-great Fish of Fury attacks or for being a cheap objective grabber. But at 80 points, its a bit expensive for either.
The Rhino is actually a quite nice vehicle for its points, IMO.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/18 16:04:26
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Bharring wrote:I just wrote up comparison of a Devilfish and a toned-down Serpent (6" shield shooting, 3+ pen downgrade, 100pts stock, costlier heavy weapons) in the Eldar codex thread in proposed rules. I also compared it to the Necron equivalent.
Devilfish's biggest problem would be that its really only useful for not-great Fish of Fury attacks or for being a cheap objective grabber. But at 80 points, its a bit expensive for either.
The Rhino is actually a quite nice vehicle for its points, IMO.
If you say so.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/18 16:27:09
Subject: Are vehicles for the other races really THAT cheap!
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Moscow, Russia
|
Man Martel, could you cut down on the know-it-all attitude? It's really irritating.
|
|
 |
 |
|