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Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 AnomanderRake wrote:
As to my list superheavies in standard games should either be gone or come with a handicap, Resurrection Protocols should be ignoreable somehow, SV2+/3+ MCs in general need a points increase, Wave Serpents shouldn't be allowed to jink after firing the Serpent Shield (make it an actual trade-off), and the all-crew-are-always-T7-against-shooting on artillery platforms needs to be gone completely.


Alright, this is one thing that really grinds my gears. People thinking RP should be ignorable. It already was in the previous book. Literally the only special rule MOST of the codex had, was outright ignorable. So, yeah, you're shooting at a T4 4+ save. Nice, glad I invested into a flavorless army. If you think it should be ignorable, then give me a way to ignore ATSKNF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:

before the space marine codex the meta was also dominated by MCs like the dreadknight, wraithknight and riptide. I'm convinced the Gravweapon was GWs response to that domination, by giving the most commonly played 'dex a potential hard counter.


That is completely true, I know. But the fact that is has so many shots, is on a durable platform, and can easily reroll everything, PLUS damages the gak out of vehicles. Too much. Simply too much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 23:38:33


40k:
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Sneaky Lictor





Wave Serpent shield nuke
Knights nuke
Lords of War nuke from regular 40k. Just have special character bit for the tame things.
Flyrant point increase on wings only, decrease point on model
Deepstrike and then shooting nerf.
   
Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Nerf:
-Riptide
-Wave Serpent
-Daemon Summoning
-Broadsides
-Thunderwolves

Nuke:
-Superheavies/GCs from "normal" 40k
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The only thing on the Riptide that needs to be nerfed is the points cost on the Ion Accelerator, the base cost of it is perfectly fine.

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40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
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Monstrous Master Moulder




Sacramento, CA

Serpent shield, Wyvern, and Thunderfire come to mind.

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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





Why the TWC hate? By the time you add SS and TH they are a very expensive unit.

Do I have something in my teeth?
 
   
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Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




 Caveman wrote:
Why the TWC hate? By the time you add SS and TH they are a very expensive unit.


You don't need a SS on every one of them, and you certainly don't need a TH on each one.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Peregrine wrote:
My choices:

Tactical squads
Scout squads
Terminator squads
Rhinos
Land Raiders

All of them are gone, including the model kits to make them. Why? Because you can't fix 40k by changing a mere five units, so I might as well kill off the most popular army, drive GW bankrupt, and increase the chance that the IP is bought by a better company that can fix the game properly.


True, although I'd replace scouts with bikes. Way more popular.

Currently ongoing projects:
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On moon miranda.

 Caveman wrote:
Why the TWC hate? By the time you add SS and TH they are a very expensive unit.
As noted, you don't need an SS on all of them by any means, and certainly not more than one TH or two in a large unit.

High numbers of S5 rending attacks, incredible speed, T5 W2 3+sv, and all sorts of wound allocation gimmicks possible with characters in the unit? They're pretty silly.

That's not even getting into how many simply hate the fundamental concept of the unit to begin with.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Grav guns have a 24" range. Every army I can think of has access to AP2 weapons with longer range. Centurions fold like wet paper in assault. I really don't see why those need a nerf. As an eldar player, the WK really isn't all that special. The riptide can kill more stuff at range, has a better save, access to a 3++ and costs less points. I have my list down to 1 WK now because they just aren't good enough for the points to spam them. Wave serpent with scatter and holo is much more effective. The worst issues are Necrons new reanimation protocols which have been changed to a way better FNP. I have no idea why GW thought that was a good idea. Summon spam is also terrible. I played an 1850 game against summon spam with my pod/melta/grav star list. I had horrible reserve rolls and by turn 3 my opponent had 3k points on the board and I had about 1200. There was nothing fun at all about that game. Also the insane amount of random tables (one of which turned my tigurius into a daemon for no reason other than "forge the narrative!") have to go. It is an insane amount of book keeping and feels like the opponent is slow playing you even when they aren't. It doesn't add anything of value to the game. In summary
1. Riptide
2. Necron reanimation protocols
3. Wave serpent
4. Summon spam
5. Not sure. Change wound allocation back, less random, better cover save mechanics
   
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On moon miranda.

 Toofast wrote:
Grav guns have a 24" range.
So do SM's. However range becomes sort of irrelevant when you can pod into the middle of the board or wherever you want, in almost perfect safety as is often seen. Even without that, deploy them centrally and they can control a huge amount of board space.

Likewise, most armies don't have weapons capable of that volume of AP2 fire available as special weapons on infantry and without some sort of drawback (e.g. Gets Hot!). I certainly can't think of many that can generate the volume of AP2 fire that Grav Centurions can, particularly with the rerolls. The ease with which they kill vehicles is also somewhat silly (oh look, I rolled two 6's out of my fifteen dice with rerolls, that's a dead just-about-anything-but-a-superheavy in one volley).

Every army I can think of has access to AP2 weapons with longer range. Centurions fold like wet paper in assault.
If you throw a dedicated assault unit at them, that doesn't get pasted in Overwatch, sure. That applies to huge numbers of similar units however. If you throw something that doesn't have any AP2 weapons, getting through T5 W2 2+ means they're likely to stick around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 03:09:07


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
Could I nuke Grey Knights?


well conveniantly for you grey knights basicly only have 5 or so units

course you might wanna focus on the units/dexes that are actually OP THIS edition
.


And conveniently only three are used (Dreadknights, Terminators and Draigo)

I said nuke them because they are (usually) the most boring army to play against.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Watford, England

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
Grav guns have a 24" range.
So do SM's. However range becomes sort of irrelevant when you can pod into the middle of the board or wherever you want, in almost perfect safety as is often seen. Even without that, deploy them centrally and they can control a huge amount of board space.

Likewise, most armies don't have weapons capable of that volume of AP2 fire available as special weapons on infantry and without some sort of drawback (e.g. Gets Hot!). I certainly can't think of many that can generate the volume of AP2 fire that Grav Centurions can, particularly with the rerolls. The ease with which they kill vehicles is also somewhat silly (oh look, I rolled two 6's out of my fifteen dice with rerolls, that's a dead just-about-anything-but-a-superheavy in one volley).

Every army I can think of has access to AP2 weapons with longer range. Centurions fold like wet paper in assault.
If you throw a dedicated assault unit at them, that doesn't get pasted in Overwatch, sure. That applies to huge numbers of similar units however. If you throw something that doesn't have any AP2 weapons, getting through T5 W2 2+ means they're likely to stick around.


Just wanted to say, I don't think centurions can overwatch; as far as i remember they're slow and purposeful.

My suggestions is Nuke the lot an start over with the rules/units. I like a lot of bits but the overall game is 'off'.
Other than that i'll keep clunking along.
   
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Not including any special characters.
Nerf or point increase for:
Serpent shield
4+ jink
Necron Wraiths
Typhon super heavy
Serpent shield
Knights
Riptides
Bladestorm
FMCs
Serpent shield
Wyverns

Oh I almost forgot - the serpent shield.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

I'd nuke Robin Cruddace.

Man can't write a book to save his life.
   
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Serpent shields - a shield that fires 60", further than any of the actual weapons? I'd reduce it to 6" range to force some actual tactical movement from wave serpents.

Re-rollable saves - I'd flat out ban them as they can make units stupidly durable. 2+ re-rollable just makes the game stupid when it takes 36 lascannons to kill one daemon... Plus the adamantium lance knight formation is just stupid. I would keep FNP and reanimation protocols though, but keep them 5+ levels at best.

Invul saves - I'd limit these to no better than 3+ in any scenario

Invisibility - I'd reduce it to giving stealth and shrouded or at least just making guns BS1 so that blast weapons could hurt the unit. Blasts and flamers should be the best at killing a foe you can't see, not the worst!

Necron durability - wraiths and tomb spyders shouldn't have access to reanimation protocols. I would nerf RP to 5+ and get rid of re-rollable saves of 1 (as I mentioned above). I'd put wraiths back to how they were in the old codex. They were a strong unit then!

Summoning - I think this would be fine, but stipulate that no summoned unit can summon and their warp charges can't be used to assist with further summoning. Otherwise I think it's a fun element to the game, and it's just the original

Riptides - I'd remove a wound from them.

Winged hive tyrants - nerf to twin-linked devourers. Maybe 8 shots twin-linked total?

Knights and Super heavies - I'd limit these to no more than 1/3 the points cost of the army as a whole. Mainly as they make for a boring game if a large proportion of your army can't scratch a super-heavy

Flyers and FMCs - again, limit the points of total flyers you can bring to 1/3 the cost of the army as a whole so there are less scenarios where one army can barely interact with another.

Spam in general - I know it would be a difficult thing to implement, but I would create a mechanism for increasing the points cost of multiple of the same units. For example, a duplicate unit might cost 10pts more than the first, and a third might cost 20pts more etc. It would be extremely difficult to implement without making army selection very complicated however, and many units wouldn't deserve this kind of tax. The points increase would have to scale as a proportion of the original unit's points cost too. It'd help encourage a bit of diversity on the tabletop though!

Jink - change it back to last editions rules, or think up something entirely new.

Wish I could have some in-depth discussions with 40k game designers lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 16:52:53


Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
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Phoenix, AZ, USA

I would move all Plasma based weapon AP up 1, from AP2 to AP3 for example.

I would also have Tactical Dreadnought Armor add 1 to the wearer's base Toughness, just like Bikes do. Yes, I'm aware that Plague Termies would be T6, and I'm okay with that.

I would remove Jink from the game, and simply give Flyers an automatic save that is ignored by AA weapons.

I would return the 6th Ed terrain rules to 7th, because the current rules are horribly missing.

I'm okay with pretty much everything else.

SJ

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 19:21:46


“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
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 krodarklorr wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
As to my list superheavies in standard games should either be gone or come with a handicap, Resurrection Protocols should be ignoreable somehow, SV2+/3+ MCs in general need a points increase, Wave Serpents shouldn't be allowed to jink after firing the Serpent Shield (make it an actual trade-off), and the all-crew-are-always-T7-against-shooting on artillery platforms needs to be gone completely.


Alright, this is one thing that really grinds my gears. People thinking RP should be ignorable. It already was in the previous book. Literally the only special rule MOST of the codex had, was outright ignorable. So, yeah, you're shooting at a T4 4+ save. Nice, glad I invested into a flavorless army. If you think it should be ignorable, then give me a way to ignore ATSKNF.


I would, but I was only asked to call out five units.

The annoyance of a unit with T5, 3+ armour (rerolling ones), and 4+ RP (rerolling ones) that can hop across the table in a turn and that I can't scratch with any models I own is much more significant to me personally than ATSKNF, regardless of whether one is worse game design than the other (they're both pretty bad).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(The inherent problem here is that GW likes to hand out "you ignore the rules!" in a completely and utterly non-interactive way that makes the guy who ignores more of the rulebook win; if I could toss out everything that was non-ignoreable/non-interactive I would, but again, the scope of the thread is five specific things)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
I'd nuke Robin Cruddace.

Man can't write a book to save his life.


Hey, can "GW's design team" be one of the units?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 19:27:14


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Sacramento, CA

 DoomMouse wrote:
Invisibility - I'd reduce it to giving stealth and shrouded or at least just making guns BS1 so that blast weapons could hurt the unit. Blasts and flamers should be the best at killing a foe you can't see, not the worst!
Yeah that's a flaw in the snap shot mechanic. Designers noticed that shooting at BS1 doesn't affect blast and template weapons too badly. Addressed by barring those weapons from attempting snap shots instead of accepting that area effect weapons don't depend much on careful aim. As a side effect flyers are immune to blast weapons. One the topic of flyers, the AV12 on the Valkyrie/Vendetta is an artifact from when they were just skimmers, the lack of proper flight explained by the weight of added armor. Then rules for flyers came out and they gained flight without having to dump any weight.

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 Wilson wrote:


Come on mate...thats really dumb thing to say.

screamers, plague riders, bloodletters, plaguebearers, heralds all have the potential to add damage output to any army and are free.

None of which will make it to combat because of how fragile the msu unit you just summoned is. Its basically a unit of IG with an invul save except they don't have any shooting.

That why the way summoning win is through board control and grabbing objectives. not be dealing damage with new units.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

I don't really have a problem with any single unit in the game. Its the rules abuse that I hate.

Id change all wargear that offers a Inv save to top out at 4+. Exceptions could be made for unique wargear items (ie. 1 per army). No Inv save can be rerolled, ever.

Id nuke random warlord traits. This adds nothing at all to the game.

Id nuke battle bros, from the allies. Each individual codex has its units pointed based on what is in the codex. Its obvious that the game breaks when abilities are given to units that were never intended to have them.

Summoning. Change it to that any summoned unit cannot summon any other unit ever nor does their presence generate more warp charges.

ID nuke random charge distances. Or at the very least. Change it to 6 + D6. Missing a four inch charge across open terrain is total BS and adds nothing to the game.


See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
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I would rather not having the Malefic nuked from the game, just nerfed. To balance it out, limit how many daemons can be summoned per turn (for example, no summoning power can be used twice, by any number of units) and make all summoned creatures non-scoring but still gives up KP in Purge The Alien.

Grav weapon? Nah. I don't think it's too big of a deal compared to what atrocity has been committed to the game.

Top 5 for me:

- Fateweaver nerf. Some tournaments nerfed him, but I still feel it needs to be more systematic.

- Reanimation Protocol nerf. GW broke this one pretty badly. Every Necron regular list immediately becomes cheese. Just make it go back to 5th edition. What was wrong with that? Or at least make it FNP so that ID will ignore it.

- FMC in general nerf. Not just the Hive Tyrant. FMC should take Grounding test right after every time it takes a wound instead of at the end of the phase, otherwise NOBODY will assault them.

- Conscript nuke. Stupid unit. No sense to the game or the army. Remove them. If anything, replace Chaos Cultists with conscript stats and lower their point cost. Cultists are meant to the nothing but sit grabbing objectives and fill the minimum troop requirement.

- Tau Firebase Cadre nuke. Most OP formation ever, You can literally put this into any army and make your opponent cry. And why Preferred Enemies against Space Marines that include Grey Knights but exclude Chaos Space Marines? Why? Why? I understand VOTLW, but this is BS.

Honorable (or dishonorable) mentions:

- Knights nerf or Adlance nerf. Don't ask. You know why.

- Random wound allocation nuke. We all consider similar models are similar for the purpose of allocating these wounds, but no two models are of the exact same level of importance. One model here and there can make a difference between a successful charge and a failed one. For the sake of simplicity and no more dice rolling, just let the victim choose who dies.

- Soulblaze changes to automatic D3 hits at the end of the turn, then it goes out. Otherwise, it can be very annoying rolling every turn.

- Invisibility nerf.

- Jink saves. FMC cannot jink on ground and only Skimmers with Fast rule can jink. Tau and Necron vehicles are tough enough with AV13 compared to Eldar, Dark Eldar and Space Marines.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/03/17 11:12:54


 
   
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St Louis

the only unit in the game i think needs adjusting is the Imperial knight.

either rasie its points cost and keep it super heavy or remove super heavy. its just way too cheap.You can get dreads that almost cost the same.

all the other units mentioned we never have issues with (although powerful) they do not break the game.

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 tenebre wrote:
the only unit in the game i think needs adjusting is the Imperial knight.

either rasie its points cost and keep it super heavy or remove super heavy. its just way too cheap.You can get dreads that almost cost the same.

all the other units mentioned we never have issues with (although powerful) they do not break the game.


Dreads that almost cost the same...What dreads even come close to it's cost? The closest most come to are Land Raider cost and don't even hit the 300 mark without throwing in all the high cost stuff onto it.

Even Contemptors don't break that mark, or SC variants. Seriously I've been looking to try and find anything that breaks 300.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/17 12:55:45


 
   
Made in ca
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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

The only thing I'd nuke is the current Psychic phase, and change it up to become similar to how Fantasy's Magic phase runs:
- Basically, I'd re-write every single psychic power to have a proper 'Casting Cost'. Something simple like a basic Witchfire power which does D6 hits would be a cost of only 4-5+. Something really, really powerful like Invis or Summoning however would get a 10-12+ casting cost!
Each power would also gain a 'boosted' version, which can either add range to the power, make it stronger, and/or add an 'area of effect' bubble to it for an increased Casting Cost. (think similar to how Flickering Fire currently works...)

- All Psykers when casting roll between 1-6 Power dice, and then add their Mastery Lv to the total rolled. This is their total Casting attempt. If it's equal to or higher than the Casting Cost of the spell they're attempting, it goes off. If the Psyker fails to reach the cost of the spell they're attempting, they break their concentration and can no longer cast any more powers that turn.
Same deal when it comes to Dispelling casting attempts... The player can roll between 1-6 dice and adds their Mastery Lv. If they equal or beat the opponent's Casting attempt total, then the power is dispelled. If they fail to equal or beat the total, that Psyker breaks their concentration and can no longer make any more Dispel/Deny attempts for the turn!

- I'd cap the total number of Warp Charges/Power dice for each pool, but have it on a sliding scale... smaller games are easily broken with larger pools, while a general hard-cap hurts larger games too much as your Psykers begin to really fight over too few dice.
Games under 1500pts for example, would be fine with a 12 dice max per Power/Dispel pool. Games between 1500 to 1999 though could see the cap go up to 20 dice. Games of 2k - 3k could probably see the need for 24-30 or so.

- Dice generation works as a 2D6 roll + 'Channeling'. The Power pool is the total of the 2D6 roll, while the Dispel pool is the *highest* dice rolled.
All Psykers then get to attempt to Channel more WC's by rolling a single D6. On a 6+, they can add another dice to their respective pool.
For the higher caps, it would simply add more dice to the basic pool generation rolls... For example, in 1500-1999k games, you'd roll 4D6 dice, with the total going to the casting player, and the defending player getting the total of the 2 *highest* rolls.


Note, I'd also stop Pink Horrors from being able to roll on Malefic. Like in Fantasy, they can only roll on the Lore of Tzeentch... That alone would help nerf some of the Summoning shenanigans!!
For that matter, any Brotherhood of Psykers unit, I'd actually simply give them all specific powers they can cast, ala Grey Knights. Pink Horrors for example would only ever have access to Flickering Fire and Bolt. Thousand Sons would always know perhaps Bolt + Doombolt, etc...

Now the Psychic phase is no longer a typically "go big or go home" style of play, and even armies which have few to no Psykers are on a more level playing field, mainly thanks to the pool caps and the inability to throw all your dice into one or two casting attempts which will never be stopped!

 
   
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St Louis

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 tenebre wrote:
the only unit in the game i think needs adjusting is the Imperial knight.

either rasie its points cost and keep it super heavy or remove super heavy. its just way too cheap.You can get dreads that almost cost the same.

all the other units mentioned we never have issues with (although powerful) they do not break the game.


Dreads that almost cost the same...What dreads even come close to it's cost? The closest most come to are Land Raider cost and don't even hit the 300 mark without throwing in all the high cost stuff onto it.

Even Contemptors don't break that mark, or SC variants. Seriously I've been looking to try and find anything that breaks 300.


a Marked contemptor can cost 290 without a legacy of ruin with one they break 300

all other super heavies run over 500 points... i jus think they should cost about 100 more or not be super heavies.

Orks! ~28000
Chaos Dwarfs ~9000
Slaanesh ~14700

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 CrownAxe wrote:
 Wilson wrote:


Come on mate...thats really dumb thing to say.

screamers, plague riders, bloodletters, plaguebearers, heralds all have the potential to add damage output to any army and are free.

None of which will make it to combat because of how fragile the msu unit you just summoned is. Its basically a unit of IG with an invul save except they don't have any shooting.

That why the way summoning win is through board control and grabbing objectives. not be dealing damage with new units.


It is also nice to throw a wrench in your opponents concentration. Some people just don't know what to do when some plague drones or daemonettes arrive in their path. Throws their whole game off.

   
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 tenebre wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 tenebre wrote:
the only unit in the game i think needs adjusting is the Imperial knight.

either rasie its points cost and keep it super heavy or remove super heavy. its just way too cheap.You can get dreads that almost cost the same.

all the other units mentioned we never have issues with (although powerful) they do not break the game.


Dreads that almost cost the same...What dreads even come close to it's cost? The closest most come to are Land Raider cost and don't even hit the 300 mark without throwing in all the high cost stuff onto it.

Even Contemptors don't break that mark, or SC variants. Seriously I've been looking to try and find anything that breaks 300.


a Marked contemptor can cost 290 without a legacy of ruin with one they break 300

all other super heavies run over 500 points... i jus think they should cost about 100 more or not be super heavies.


To hit a logical 290 would require a standard mark, heavy conversion beamer, and twin linked lascannon. Though honestly some of the dreads in IA13 are just overpriced (Sonic Dreads for example) for what they bring into play, though those still don't come anywhere near the standard IK cost.
   
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Hatfield, PA

I would rather see all books get solid internal consistency so all units were viable before worrying about nerfing everyone else's stuff.

I do find the concept of Lords of War rather amusing given that I know too many people who happily include a knight or some other GW plastic LoW model in their army and then self righteously complain when someone uses *any* forge world model.

Nerfing 5 things in a game this size isn't going to really fix anything and will instead just screw over more people than are already getting the shaft. I'd rather see buffs and improvements to armies to make them more versatile and usable than nerfs, though that is just me.

Skriker

CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War 
   
 
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