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 Thud wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Thud wrote:

It was at the European Team Championships, white shirt is from Team Germany, Krootman is from Team France. Photo was staged, because they both thought it was pretty funny.

The whole BS story is just sad, though, as SM bike lists were not exactly rolling through tournaments at the time (and the ones in the picture are even painted as WS), and it's from what's probably the most competitive tournament in the world, where everyone attending is fully on board with the social contract.

The ETC is not, and wasn't at the time, the most competitive tournament in the world.

Just my two cents, but I feel it's good for people to understand what the ETC is in reality: An international team tournament playing modified 40K with arbitrary restrictions and missions which has been far from standard 40K at times.

When I used the word competitive, I meant what the word actually means. Not "comp is bad/not real 40k and I think X should be allowed/banned and it's not representative of other tournaments, or I like/hate it."

You said "most competitive" and I just wanted to clarify for those who don't know what the ETC is, apart from that I don't think there's any misunderstanding here



Anyway I may be crazy but it seems I'm the only person here who called the OP out on his helping a noob cheese a non-cheeser and posting about it What do you think ? Sunstorm vs Pod, which is cheesier ?

I think that running one single drop pod carrying a bit of melta is far from cheesy, and calling someone out on lending a pod to a new player who gets completely rolled even despite these 'cheesy' strategies is a bit much.

Ratflinger wrote:
I think that running one single drop pod carrying a bit of melta is far from cheesy, and calling someone out on lending a pod to a new player who gets completely rolled even despite these 'cheesy' strategies is a bit much.

Cheese is definitely a big word for anything in this thread, I'm just pointing out the irony of calling "The Sunstorm" cheese when one suggests the use of Drop Pods, which unlike "The Sunstorm" and Fire Prisms, are beyond awesome.

Is your point of view that new players should be encouraged to use the most powerful units in order to make up for their inexperience ?

morgoth wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
I think that running one single drop pod carrying a bit of melta is far from cheesy, and calling someone out on lending a pod to a new player who gets completely rolled even despite these 'cheesy' strategies is a bit much.

Cheese is definitely a big word for anything in this thread, I'm just pointing out the irony of calling "The Sunstorm" cheese when one suggests the use of Drop Pods, which unlike "The Sunstorm" and Fire Prisms, are beyond awesome.

Is your point of view that new players should be encouraged to use the most powerful units in order to make up for their inexperience ?

Yeah, I think the use of a single Drop Pod in a pickup game is less cheesy than bringing an apocalypse formation of tanks. Even if "The Sunstorm" is not the best thing ever since sliced bread.

Giving someone in a pickup game some tool to even participate in the game is not cheesy in my eyes. I honestly do not think it much different than handing some guy an ADL with a quad gun when the opponent would be fielding a flying bakery. It makes for a more fun game and a better experience, showing the new player a way to deal with something they have not likely encountered before. There is little inherent value in marching your terminators slowly across the board while they get shot to bits by tanks for an hour or two.

Ratflinger wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
I think that running one single drop pod carrying a bit of melta is far from cheesy, and calling someone out on lending a pod to a new player who gets completely rolled even despite these 'cheesy' strategies is a bit much.

Cheese is definitely a big word for anything in this thread, I'm just pointing out the irony of calling "The Sunstorm" cheese when one suggests the use of Drop Pods, which unlike "The Sunstorm" and Fire Prisms, are beyond awesome.

Is your point of view that new players should be encouraged to use the most powerful units in order to make up for their inexperience ?

Yeah, I think the use of a single Drop Pod in a pickup game is less cheesy than bringing an apocalypse formation of tanks. Even if "The Sunstorm" is not the best thing ever since sliced bread.

Giving someone in a pickup game some tool to even participate in the game is not cheesy in my eyes. I honestly do not think it much different than handing some guy an ADL with a quad gun when the opponent would be fielding a flying bakery. It makes for a more fun game and a better experience, showing the new player a way to deal with something they have not likely encountered before. There is little inherent value in marching your terminators slowly across the board while they get shot to bits by tanks for an hour or two.

The Bakery was an optimized tournament build, the ADL with a quad gun is a decent tool.

The Sunstorm is a bad Apocalypse formation made of bad tanks, the Drop Pod is the best 35 points in all of 40K.

See how that's entirely not comparable ?


So in the end, what you mean is that because the beginner had written a terrible list, giving him a Drop Pod probably pushed the game towards an even one, just like giving someone a Flyrant or a Riptide because they're up against a better player/list combo.

It is comparable because it gives the player the tools to deal with something they otherwise cannot. The relative strength of the units are not of overly much importance even if the notion that one single drop pod with some anti tank would be a gamebreaking cheesy inclusion is strange to me. Lots of drop pods makes for a scary alpha strike. One drop pod is a semi-useful suicide unit or objective camper. Yes, I would argue that the inclusion of an apocalypse formation in a pickup game is cheesier.

Even games tend to be more fun, even if the inclusion of this game breaking best in the game unit that is a drop pod hardly affected the outcome of the match. Do you mean there is some great value in letting new players have their inefficient lists annihilated by things they have not heard about from a book they might not have heard about so that they learn? Is it not better to instead lend them a unit that hints at a way to handle the thing that then proceeds to murder their army?

Morgoth is looking for a fight haha.

Anyway, not sure if this story is cheese related, but it still fit the team. I played a match right after Ork codex came out. I was up against a SM that tailored his list to beat mine. (I always play similar lsit due to low model count)

Turn out that I had a hero Killkannon battlewagon. 1st turn, he destroyed 2 TFC in 1 large blast (bad placement). Then, this battlwagon manage to save about 20 pen and glance because of a 5++ KFC. He lost so much firepower between the TFC that got destroyed and the firing he did on the BW, I managed to controled the board with the rest of my army and win this

Ratflinger wrote:
It is comparable because it gives the player the tools to deal with something they otherwise cannot. The relative strength of the units are not of overly much importance even if the notion that one single drop pod with some anti tank would be a gamebreaking cheesy inclusion is strange to me. Lots of drop pods makes for a scary alpha strike. One drop pod is a semi-useful suicide unit or objective camper. Yes, I would argue that the inclusion of an apocalypse formation in a pickup game is cheesier.

Even games tend to be more fun, even if the inclusion of this game breaking best in the game unit that is a drop pod hardly affected the outcome of the match. Do you mean there is some great value in letting new players have their inefficient lists annihilated by things they have not heard about from a book they might not have heard about so that they learn? Is it not better to instead lend them a unit that hints at a way to handle the thing that then proceeds to murder their army?

I think you need to learn more about Drop Pods and how overly efficient they are for their point cost. Sure one Drop Pod is only 35 points of overpowered, so it doesn't really change much, but the point is you're adding overpowered to badly designed to compensate, doesn't make sense.

There is no cheese with bringing five Fire Prisms, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. It's terrible to the point where even a soft-ish list would auto win. Hell even trilas Pred Spam would go to town on that. Or just about any list you can come up with I think.

As a new player, I lost my first game due to having the mix&match noob list composed of the models I bought without any synergy or thought of efficiency and an overall waste of points on useless equipment.

That was a lesson from which I learned to make better lists.

If you want to teach a new player something, teach him how to make his list not suck, it'll be a dozen times better than giving him one of the OP units in the game to compensate for his terrible list.

morgoth wrote:

If you want to teach a new player something, teach him how to make his list not suck, it'll be a dozen times better than giving him one of the OP units in the game to compensate for his terrible list.

I think helping the other player by introducing the drop pod to him probably "did" teach him something about his list. I feel your reasoning is specious at best.

^What he said^
by showing him which unit work best in his codex, you have help me build better list. Now, that new player will try to squeeze in a drop pod in his futur list, because he saw how effective it was, and to do that, he will cut the things that did nothing for him (like extra equipment or non-synergy unit). I feel like you are just trying to pick on the OP.

edit: I agree with you Morgot that the definiton of Cheese may vary from person to person (the OP way of seeing cheese is obviously different than yours). You can either see cheese as competitive win-a-lot powerhouse list, or very big or expansive unit like Super Heavy. In my case, cheese is often more someone who tailored his list. With that in mind, it was easy to see that the OP was trying to create a thread where people had surprise in game where cheese was involve, whatever your definiton is, hence picking on him and debating on how cheesy a single drop pod is against an apocalypse formation is irrelevant.

1. A guy walks into a FLGS with an underpowered Apoc Formation based army.
2. Another guy sees that underpowered army and thinks its cheese.
3. That guy lends a pod to the first guy's opponent, wherein a drop pod is overpowered per se.
4. That guy then comes on dakka to tell the whole story as if the first guy was an donkey-cave and he saved the day.
5. You guys are fine with it.


Good for you, have a nice day.

Fourth edition, playin a 500 game against the resident TFG. he plays chaos demon bomb with a lieutenant with infiltrate and wings (1st turn assault guaranteed) and a bunch of Slaanesh demons waiting to be dropped in. I'm playing IG with a platoon and a tech priest and two Bassilisks.
He gets first turn and charges my platoon, kills three but the remainder manage to wound him. My turn the Tech Priest and his two servitors charge in to help. He targets them due to power weapons and fists so he kills all three. The last seven Guardsmen manage to kill the leiutenant!

First turn victory, with Guard, in Close Combat!

1 drop pod is not cheese. 5-8 drop pods is pretty cheese. inb4 "drop pods is bad cause bubble wrap"

morgoth wrote:
1. A guy walks into a FLGS with an underpowered Apoc Formation based army.
2. Another guy sees that underpowered army and thinks its cheese.
3. That guy lends a pod to the first guy's opponent, wherein a drop pod is overpowered per se.
4. That guy then comes on dakka to tell the whole story as if the first guy was an donkey-cave and he saved the day.
5. You guys are fine with it.


Good for you, have a nice day.

Hey Morgoth, it's been a while, are Wave Serpents still underpowered?

morgoth wrote:
1. A guy walks into a FLGS with an underpowered Apoc Formation based army.
2. Another guy sees that underpowered army and thinks its cheese.
3. That guy lends a pod to the first guy's opponent, wherein a drop pod is overpowered per se.
4. That guy then comes on dakka to tell the whole story as if the first guy was an donkey-cave and he saved the day.
5. You guys are fine with it.


Good for you, have a nice day.

You are just so grumpy.
Dude brought an entire mechanized list which had no trouble wiping termies, dreads and the pod off the table at all
The only unit he had any trouble with was bikes and the terminators he couldn't kill due to lack of shots
The Dark Angels player is very new and 1 pod is the furthest thing from cheese ever.

If you whine this much because of one pod, I feel sorry for anyone who has to play you ever, in any game of any medium.

morgoth wrote:
1. A guy walks into a FLGS with an underpowered Apoc Formation based army.
2. Another guy sees that underpowered army and thinks its cheese.
3. That guy lends a pod to the first guy's opponent, wherein a drop pod is overpowered per se.
4. That guy then comes on dakka to tell the whole story as if the first guy was an donkey-cave and he saved the day.
5. You guys are fine with it.


Good for you, have a nice day.

For someone who has a distinct fondness for wave serpents, you sure sound butthurt about one drop pod.

 Bookwrack wrote:

morgoth wrote:
1. A guy walks into a FLGS with an underpowered Apoc Formation based army.
2. Another guy sees that underpowered army and thinks its cheese.
3. That guy lends a pod to the first guy's opponent, wherein a drop pod is overpowered per se.
4. That guy then comes on dakka to tell the whole story as if the first guy was an donkey-cave and he saved the day.
5. You guys are fine with it.


Good for you, have a nice day.

For someone who has a distinct fondness for wave serpents, you sure sound butthurt about one drop pod.

I love Wave Serpents, they're so sexy.

This is not about a Drop Pod, this is about a guy who comes on Dakka to spew hateful words about somebody we don't even know and the community in general joining him in agreement.

I believe that we, as a community, should first tell people like the OP that there was nothing wrong to begin with, and second that it's really dirty to insult somebody in a post they have no knowledge of.

This is not the first time, by the way, that I've seen some dakka members pile in on some innocent guy who doesn't even know of dakka on account of the OP talking gak about them.

I may be wrong, but this should be against the forum rules if it's not already.

The OP was neither hateful nor insulting.

You, Sir, cannot make a point to save your life.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
The OP was neither hateful nor insulting.

You, Sir, cannot make a point to save your life.

Please. How do you portray the Eldar player now ? How about the title ? or the word "suckered", or the word cheese for that matter.

I don't think Dakka exists to portray other people badly for no other reason that we disagree with them.

I mean... come on man lol. I may agree that the story ain't about a white knight lending a drop pod to the oppress so he could fight the tyrant. It seem like both player were somehow new to the game. The OP found that an Apoc formation was a bit over the top. Help a new player with a pod. The game finish as a tie, everybody go home happy.

There is NO hateful of insulting comments in the OP. the title say: when the cheese fail, and the only time the word cheese is mention in the OP post, it's when he talks about the melta squad out of the pod. So someone couldn't consider any of those 2 words offensive toward the Eldar player. the word suckered is MAYBE a bit too harsh, and ring with a negative tone. but it's a good word to describe the situation if the Dark Angels player got 'convinced' to try itself against the Eldar player, in which case, the word is appropriate and not offensive nor insulting.

And the only thing that is happening in this thread that should be consider against the forum rules is to side track the thread in a discussion other that what the thread intent is.

sorry for bad english, it's not my first language.

I think this was an excellent demonstration of 'glass cannon'.

A Fire Prism ain't great.

A Fire Prism against Marines with no real ability to get to the backfield is a little scary.

3+ Fire Prisms against a newish power armor player with no way to push the backfield would have been devastatingly brutal.

Its no WK-backed Davu spam. But against a newer player, especially in power armor? There are certainly nicer lists.

morgoth wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
The OP was neither hateful nor insulting.

You, Sir, cannot make a point to save your life.

Please. How do you portray the Eldar player now ? How about the title ? or the word "suckered", or the word cheese for that matter.

I don't think Dakka exists to portray other people badly for no other reason that we disagree with them.

l

Dear God, you're right. Let's ban the OP for calling 3 Apoc formations in a game "Cheese" and having the nerve to say "suckered" . I'm sure we can petition the mods to get both of these despicable words added to the curse word filter.

Or we can all act like adults and not get our panties in a bunch because someone tells an anticdote from their local store.

The effectiveness of units depends on the enemy army. Pods vs. assault based armies are pretty damn useless.
Back when I played my Khorne I called Drop Pods Dominos Delivery Pods because they just brought the Marines closer to death by chainaxe.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
The OP was neither hateful nor insulting.

You, Sir, cannot make a point to save your life.

Please. How do you portray the Eldar player now ? How about the title ? or the word "suckered", or the word cheese for that matter.

I don't think Dakka exists to portray other people badly for no other reason that we disagree with them.

l

Dear God, you're right. Let's ban the OP for calling 3 Apoc formations in a game "Cheese" and having the nerve to say "suckered" . I'm sure we can petition the mods to get both of these despicable words added to the curse word filter.

Or we can all act like adults and not get our panties in a bunch because someone tells an anticdote from their local store.

The effectiveness of units depends on the enemy army. Pods vs. assault based armies are pretty damn useless.
Back when I played my Khorne I called Drop Pods Dominos Delivery Pods because they just brought the Marines closer to death by chainaxe.

It's called an anecdote, and respectable adults don't go online slandering others in my book.

You may be fine with it, this is at least the third time I see such behavior here and I find it despicable.

Even vs Assault based armies pods are pure awesome. You drop them empty on objectives that will not net your enemy free movement so you can score maelstrom without moving close to the assault troops. If he stops to take care of them, he's lost all chance of winning. If he doesn't ? you're scoring maelstrom from your backseat.

That still doesn't make 1 pod Cheese in a friendly game where someone was using an apoc formation and maybe, we don't know for sure, the Dark Angels player had no efficiend way to deal with tank. you give him a tool to tie the game.

They may sounds really abusive in the situation you describe, which is CLEARLY not similar to the one describe by the OP.