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 koooaei wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ultras is the best. 2 rounds of full twin linked on all tactical is game changing. Reroll snap shots another turn to nape flyers. Then chose to pass or fail any moral check.

It's taking unnaturally long for a comment "bolters suck, marines suck" to take place. I'm starting to worry.

Marines do suck but hordes of marines on your face turn 1 is not that bad. Alpha strike with something like 5-6 pods turn 1 and a lot of viable top tier armies get wrecked in the process - you can hit draigo star before they get spells off. Kill several hive tyrants on the ground. Kill several knights turn 1. Alpha hits like these are almost auto win turn 1. Ofc they can go badly but the ability to focus your entire army exactly where you want it without any chance of counter attack is pretty dang hard to beat.

Then why isn't the bat reps across the net filled with reports of round two tableings by BA drop pods if they are all that. I play drop pods and ill be first to say the alpha strike is kinda fun, but you won't win many games if that is all your focused on. Turns 2-5 are probably more important.

I got bored of reading the arguments for and against specific terminology, so if I've missed some points addressed in this thread i apologise.

I believe Blood angels are one of the better options because they are small squads with multiple specials.

My reasoning, it is easier to get a small squad where you want them, they are less of a concern when they die, and numerous small targets is difficult for target priority.

Tau (possibly the undisputed kings of intercept) can have intercept on most units due to it being a 5 point upgrade, however even they would simply not have enough interceptor to stop that many units (assuming no list tailoring).

I would say the average is about 2-3 units intercepting in any army.
This leaves your 10+ 5 man squads of BA in a good position. Not only are they cheap enough that losing them isn't the end of the world, but you have reserves to fill in for the ones that do get killed.

I fail to see how Space Wolves bring anything new to the party here. Yes they can receive a charge better in terms of attacks but BA have the advantage here too.
more small squads encourages the opponent to make disordered charges to get both squads. This means more overwatch and also puts you back on an even playing field.
Even if this isn't the case the unit assaulting will take more overwatch hits from flamers (where applicable) and may kill the unit outright leaving them vulnerable to return fire.

In the space wolf argument it was posed that a 10 man squad is better, i personally disagree. This game is, as we're so often reminded, a shooting game, therefore a protracted melee is not always a preference.

Still to each their own, i see the flaw in lots of small squads too.

I think Ultras are the best in a lot of terms but Calgar costs so much it skews their capability.

If i had to rate them at 1500 points it would be:
1. BA - tons of specials, loads of targets, redundancies covered.
2. SW - good specials and counter attack
3. Sal - good specials (TL)
4. UM - awesome tactics and beat-stick.

Those BA squads are really easy to mop up after they drop, however. The BA aren't THAT cheap. And you run out of reserves quickly when you aren't doing any damage back to your foes. BA alpha strike damage is not so great as to ensure that they won't be wiped out in future turns. That's why I don't think BA drop lists are that strong compared to SW, much less in the spectrum of all possible lists.

Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

Martel732 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

I don't know how to respond to this.
There are several concepts here that totally throw me.
1) that 2-3 meltas can't reliably pop a rhino - I'm sure I've done so a number of times with 1. Still varagies of fate I suppose but assuming you drop in and move, you're likely to be in melta range. Is it just BA that have this issue? SW and Sallies seem fine.
2) the idea that an army across the table with intervening terrain it more threatening than an army that it in optimal range for its weapons and mostly in 12" of you - I understand foot slogging across the table can be an issue but all guns in your face unmolested is pretty heavy.
3) you state assaulting a space wolf pod list is bad then state something that sounds like you do it (although I may be misinterpreting you)
4) you play BA and have to cross the table when in this thread it's clear BA are rated as a good pod army by many people.

All this said I'm happy for you to believe whatever, it's your game dude. Just some observations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, I totally got sucked into this discussion. I don't like arguing with single people on their opinion. It is after all your opinion.

"that 2-3 meltas can't reliably pop a rhino - I'm sure I've done so a number of times with 1"

This is a math problem. Work it out. The odds are about 50/50 for 3 BS 4 meltas.

" the idea that an army across the table with intervening terrain it more threatening than an army that it in optimal range for its weapons and mostly in 12" of you - I understand foot slogging across the table can be an issue but all guns in your face unmolested is pretty heavy. "

The marines simply don't have enough guns. The Xenos do. Again, math. Also, getting within optimal range of YOUR guns puts you within optimal range of MY guns. And, I can assault you on my turn. You can't assault me after deep strike. The Xenos burn down meq lists from well outside the optimal range of marine guns.

As for SW, there is a very short list of units that can assault GH and win. The list for assaulting BA tacs and ASM is much, much longer.

I don't play pods because the players in my meta are mainly from 5th and all have extensive experience against pods. Additionally, pods backfire quite a bit in a TAC environment. One might draw a Nid list, or assault Orks, or Khorne marines. I find hybrid mech backfires less frequently, but is still an uphill battle for BA.

" I don't like arguing with single people on their opinion. It is after all your opinion."

It never hurts to ask people to justify their opinion. Otherwise, they are just spewing hot air. Please let me know if you need a more detailed justification. To be more specific, this quote: " I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on" is a critical assumption in your argument. I think you are vastly overestimating how much firepower the BA can actually bring to bear in a drop list. And underestimating the retaliation turn of your opponent.

@martel -- I think it would be foolish to stick melta in 13 pods. The melta pods are really there to take on targets like Knights. There are also Fragiosos with heavy flamers, DC dreads, and Tac with flamer sergeants and heavy flamers. And of course, you can take plasma.

Also, it depends on how many points you're playing with. At 3,500+, that null deploy T1 alpha charge from drop can be unsurmountable for certain enemies.

I'm not really advocating for Blood Angels (as I said earlier, I'd probably give it to SW, if I didn't like BA models more ); I'm just saying, there's more to it than melta ASM.

 Talys wrote:
@martel -- I think it would be foolish to stick melta in 13 pods. The melta pods are really there to take on targets like Knights. There are also Fragiosos with heavy flamers, DC dreads, and Tac with flamer sergeants and heavy flamers. And of course, you can take plasma.

Also, it depends on how many points you're playing with. At 3,500+, that null deploy T1 alpha charge from drop can be unsurmountable for certain enemies.

I'm not really advocating for Blood Angels (as I said earlier, I'd probably give it to SW, if I didn't like BA models more ); I'm just saying, there's more to it than melta ASM.

All those flamer templates are useless against units that are meched up or standing behind mech. Initial set up is critical against a drop list. 3,500+ pts completely changes the complexion of the game, I agree. But you also run into the problem even more of your own pods getting in your way.

Martel732 wrote:

All those flamer templates are useless against units that are meched up or standing behind mech. Initial set up is critical against a drop list. 3,500+ pts completely changes the complexion of the game, I agree. But you also run into the problem even more of your own pods getting in your way.

I don't disagree at all. However, the drop pod army has the advantage of choosing the attack strategy after the non-pod army has deployed. If there is bubblewrap, hose it down first with flamer/frag, then assault (or melta) the mech. If they're in armor or behind, assault the vehicle, then hose down afterwards. Obviously, there are cases where it's inefficient to use a pod to assault, so the person who does that is just not a very good commander It doesn't make sense to take 2 drop pods to kill 1 troop in a rhino, right?

More intelligently: don't go all in; squat objectives with your some of your pods, and send in just a couple to take out the threats which you are confident you can gain a strategic advantage, or destroy more points than you'll lose. In many cases, squatting objectives forces your enemy to blow a turn doing nothing more than moving around to kill pods, because otherwise, they'll never catch up in points. It doesn't even tie up your ASM; just ditch the pod. Plus, it makes it so they have to move things, sometimes into non-optimal positions, and then your T2 drops can wreak some havoc.

Depending on your adversary (if they are weak in skyfire), you can use a Stormraven just to block LOS to the pod, too. In my opinion, the whole idea of a successful drop army is to be the one controlling the tempo and dictating where and when battles are fought.

You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

Martel732 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

Well there is that formation

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

Well there is that formation

I guess. But it takes away of lot of options for the list unless the game is very, very large.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't assault the turn you come down in a drop pod. That leaves you hanging in the wind on your opponent's turn.

How does a Stormraven block LOS on a flyer base?

I was referring to Angel's fury (and augur triangulation), on large enough games where you can abuse this with pods. (also, remember, I mentioned 3500+ -- I also mentioned that BA specials scaled well in an earlier post on this thread)

Ravens are a great way to prevent knights from gaining LOS to drop pods -- especially if your opponent doesn't have FW castigators. Also, where there is meaningful terrain and depending on the setup, stormravens can be very useful obstacles (either to movement or LOS). It's just something perhaps unexpected that you can do to force your opponent to reposition, perhaps into a trap of yours.

I wasn't suggesting that these are I Win strategies -- just pointing out that just because you have drop pods and specials that encourage drop/assault doesn't mean that a player should be uncreative and just do that. There many ways drop pods can ruin someone's day other than melts spam... That's all.

3500 points changes the game immensely. The game just doesn't play the same. The table is bigger, the super heavies more numerious, etc. But at 1500 points you just don't have the points to make some of these special formations even work. As such the base rules, tactics, etc of the codex need to shine. And in that regard I just don't see BA as the drop pod list that has the staying power to win out.

 Jayden63 wrote:
3500 points changes the game immensely. The game just doesn't play the same. The table is bigger, the super heavies more numerious, etc. But at 1500 points you just don't have the points to make some of these special formations even work. As such the base rules, tactics, etc of the codex need to shine. And in that regard I just don't see BA as the drop pod list that has the staying power to win out.

I agree completely. Hence, my original comment that the poll question is difficult without knowing what size of army, and whether "drop pod army" meant a homogenous, drop-pod only army, or if it meant an army that just had a large number of drop pods.

Obviously, Angel's Fury doesn't work for a 1500 points and under drop pod army, since you'd only have 2-3 drop pods

The purpose of this post isn't about running drop pods in Apocalypse Size games. It was because I decided to Run a Drop Pod list that the debate occurred, nothing on the point value. Purpose was to just see people's opinions on which drop pod list they like the best or which one is the most competitive and there reasons why they think or like it the best.

Thank you, Ironwolf, for starting this thread. 3-4 pages of discussion, where I learned quite a bit!

[qu cote=B harring 640138 7693671 null]Thank you, Ironwolf, for starting this thread. 3-4 pages of discussion, where I learned quite a bit!

I can still get more out of a SW drop list than a BA drop list, though, I think. BA are #2, but sacrificing the chapter tactic really stinks.

Since Blood Angels are clearly #1, who is #2?

I'd say Salamanders personally as whilst Space Wolves are decent, they don't have TL flamers and free master crafted an shenanigans.

30k Legion with Orbital assault rite of war. Everybody that gets a rhino as a transport, instead gets a drop pod. If it cant deploy by deepstrike, you cannot bring it. This RoW allows terminators to deepstrike.

Hello 2 ten man tac squads for 185 points each, and 4 support squads with meltas, plasma, flamers, volkite or rotary cannon. 5 man melta squads in a drop pods are 185 points if memory serves. 5 man plasma squads 210, and my personal favorite terminator squad killer 10 flamer guys in a drop pod for 210. Throw in a Praetor, a term squad escort, a fire raptor and Lightning, a Mortis Contemptor in a dreadclaw and there you go.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are not a good drop list. I really wish this misconception would die. The BA chapter tactic is furious charge. The BA want to charge at close range. Drop pods turn off our chapter tactic. Furthermore, 3X BS melta shots are NOT that reliable anymore.

Uh, what?

Their chapter tactic, for the purpose of a drop pod list, is access to better wargear in Tactical and Assault squads, which are what you're drop-podding in. Tactical squads with heavy flamers. Assault Squads with plasma or melta guns, and two of them.

Any squad left unengaged and not dead still gets to benefit from that Furious Charge on the next turn.

Also, Furioso Dreads with a heavy flamer fist and the frag launcher is better than most dreads you can drop-pod in if you want to go that route.

Seriously, try out a drop pod list where you bring a bunch of Heavy Flamer tactical squads. I actually prefer sticking a melta gun as the special weapon in said squads, so you can combat squad and have a few chances at chunking some armor. It's really efficient. Biggest weakness of Heavy Flamers normally is their lack of being able to get where you want them to go, but drop pods fix that issue, and it's a LOT cheaper bringing tac marines over sternguard.

I still have to go with Iron Hands. Being able to take a Master of the Forge and get 6 AV 13 (front/side) Dreads with IWND all coming in via drop-pod is terrifying. Give them Assault Launchers and two Heavy Flamers and even hoard armies will fall apart. Couple that with late-dropping Tac squads with FNP that go onto objectives later in the game and you're set.

Few people have enough melta to deal with that much AV 13.

I voted Iron Hands

I've structured my Sons of Medusa around the use of Drop Pods and aerial units. Pods bring in Tactical Marines, Sternguard, and a Dreadnought while Storm Talons and a Storm Raven provide fire support elsewhere. Plus the Storm Raven can bring in a second dread and transport a squad as well for greater mobility. Having IWND is great for that sort of usage and the Raukaan supplement has a few solid items that allow their HQs to project leadership and other bonuses across a wide bubble, a bubble that would be cut short if I were just playing them as a gun line.

Also I played against a Deathwing army once and it was the funniest game I've ever had. Between his deep striking and my drop podding combined with our scatters we had units flying all over the board. Both of us were absolutely rolling by turn 2.

 SRSFACE wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are not a good drop list. I really wish this misconception would die. The BA chapter tactic is furious charge. The BA want to charge at close range. Drop pods turn off our chapter tactic. Furthermore, 3X BS melta shots are NOT that reliable anymore.

Uh, what?

Their chapter tactic, for the purpose of a drop pod list, is access to better wargear in Tactical and Assault squads, which are what you're drop-podding in. Tactical squads with heavy flamers. Assault Squads with plasma or melta guns, and two of them.

Any squad left unengaged and not dead still gets to benefit from that Furious Charge on the next turn.

Also, Furioso Dreads with a heavy flamer fist and the frag launcher is better than most dreads you can drop-pod in if you want to go that route.

Seriously, try out a drop pod list where you bring a bunch of Heavy Flamer tactical squads. I actually prefer sticking a melta gun as the special weapon in said squads, so you can combat squad and have a few chances at chunking some armor. It's really efficient. Biggest weakness of Heavy Flamers normally is their lack of being able to get where you want them to go, but drop pods fix that issue, and it's a LOT cheaper bringing tac marines over sternguard.

Heavy flamers are useless against meched up opponents.

BA chapter tactix actually helps a lot here. Furious charge allows them to remain a better threat the next turn forcing your opponent to either charge them or kill to a man. Cause even 1-2 marines with 3 s5 attacks on the charge can be enough to sweep a non-mellee-oriented squad or wreck a vehicle.

Martel732 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

I think the rhino thing is a meta-issue. I haven't seen a well-performing competitive list with multiple rhinos in a couple editions. Kind of a prey-migration thing. Their predators have become too numerous and dwindled the rhino population, so I just can't see myself having a problem with a rhino with a pod list. I generally do half the pods as flamers, and half as melta. So flamers don't start coming in until I've had a chance to de-mech their dudes.

Another thing to remember is that flyers are popular, so not all of their army will be on the table on t1 to hit you back. Two of the lists I played against at the last itc tourney had 3 and 4 flyers respectively. Not only was their initial deployment too small to immediately kill a mere two pods worth of guys (I was only running 4 and not a full pod list,) but there's another upshot:

Flyers have an absolute pain of a time killing a drop pod/podded guys in their own deployment zone.

If I had been running a fleshtearers detachment pod spam list against the opponents I drew, I think things would've been a lot more in my favor. Probably would've still lost to taudar guy, but that's just too big of a fish for the BA fishing pole.

Went off on a tangent, but after reconsideration I'd say the 5 man 2 specials plus sarge weapon(s) with fragiosos, heavy flamer tacs, and furious charge if the opponent dares to leave any marines alive puts BA on top overall.

Both myself and opponents have a lot of trouble getting charges off after a drop. The squads get shredded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Martel I am happy for you to feel that way. I'm expressing an opinion not a fact. I reckon you if you were facing me and I had a BA army (I don't unfortunately). I would cause your army enough hurt that it'd be a full gone conclusion early on. Obviously this is just me saying so, because I have a positive outlook on this.
You and I have had some conversations before regarding BA deficiencies in relation to Tau. Your opinion on BA then seemed bleak. I don't think BA are the best army overall, I hand that honour to Necrons for sheer impossibility to kill or Eldar for sheer power, but I think they're a decent army and I would happily run them in preference of other marines, specifically podding.
I'd happily create you an example list I would use.
I'm thinking flesh tearers but I don't have all the info yet.

I've faced, many many drop pod lists and they just serve themselves up to me. Except the SW ones who don't care if they are assaulted. That's a huge difference, and that's my view on it. I'm willing to bet that your drop BA can't cause nearly the damage that Tau/Eldar/IG can by forcing me to cross the table against them. And by them having about double-triple the firepower. That never hurts, either. Don't forget the coveted triple melta squad has a 50/50 shot of popping a Rhino. Or it can kill a whole two marines. I'm shaking in my power armor, I tell you. In fact, I might go as far to say that the whole BA drop scheme is thwarted by the Rhino in 7th ed. That's not exactly fearsome.

The long and the short of it is that BA don't want to be within assault range without being able to assault themselves. Yeah, I suppose lists with absolutely zero assault elements can't punch back, but those are actually pretty rare despite the shootiness of 7th.

I think the rhino thing is a meta-issue. I haven't seen a well-performing competitive list with multiple rhinos in a couple editions. Kind of a prey-migration thing. Their predators have become too numerous and dwindled the rhino population, so I just can't see myself having a problem with a rhino with a pod list. I generally do half the pods as flamers, and half as melta. So flamers don't start coming in until I've had a chance to de-mech their dudes.

Another thing to remember is that flyers are popular, so not all of their army will be on the table on t1 to hit you back. Two of the lists I played against at the last itc tourney had 3 and 4 flyers respectively. Not only was their initial deployment too small to immediately kill a mere two pods worth of guys (I was only running 4 and not a full pod list,) but there's another upshot:

Flyers have an absolute pain of a time killing a drop pod/podded guys in their own deployment zone.

If I had been running a fleshtearers detachment pod spam list against the opponents I drew, I think things would've been a lot more in my favor. Probably would've still lost to taudar guy, but that's just too big of a fish for the BA fishing pole.

Went off on a tangent, but after reconsideration I'd say the 5 man 2 specials plus sarge weapon(s) with fragiosos, heavy flamer tacs, and furious charge if the opponent dares to leave any marines alive puts BA on top overall.

I've been starting with my entire list on the table in 7th. Fliers have really fallen out of favor where I'm playing. Maybe that's the difference. The Rhino can be any cheap transport in my example.