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It's no secret that HDs are one of the best units in the new codex, particularly Cult variety HDs.

But if going CAD, how is everyone running them?

3 units of single HDs I can see being the most flexible, while the least survivable (easy first blood?)
1 unit of 3 would get better results and be harder to wipe out
2 of 2 would be a happy medium, but would cost more than the other options... unless you went all out and filled all of your heavy support slots with nihilist killing machines.

ive been using 2 squads of 3 and 1 squad of 2. They are that good. I've been using the annihilation nexus on top of it for more firepower effectively giving me 6 HS.

Destroyers aren't too terribly difficult to kill, so I'd personally be wary of running them as units of 1. Easy First Blood, easy kill points.

I've been running them in Destroyer Cult, as part of a Decurion:

1 DLord
2 Destroyers/1 HD
2 Destroyers/1 HD
2 Destroyers/1 HD
3 HDs

Expensive, but worth every friggin point. In fact, I'd say this formation needs to be put on the "pull your punches" list, so if playing with new people or against the "less good" players out there, I'll be thinking twice about whether I want to pull out this formation.

Still not sure about mixed D/HD units...

(hint: convince me)

 skoffs wrote:
Still not sure about mixed D/HD units...

(hint: convince me)

I think mixing the 2 is good for a "Take All Comers" approach. Regular Destroyers are obviously very good at taking down MEQs, but against high AV targets, they can't hurt anything. Having an HD mixed into every unit gives every unit a threat against anything and everything you might find yourself facing on the board (and adds some Instant Death to your volley against MEQs).

Just my thinking so far. I haven't run any "pure Destroyer" units yet without an HD in there to compare against.

I'll hopefully be adding some HDs to my regular squads as well, as soon as GW gets more in stock. >.>

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'll hopefully be adding some HDs to my regular squads as well, as soon as GW gets more in stock. >.>

Dude, if you have any extra Gauss Blasters laying around, you can pretty easily convert a Heavy Destroyer upgrade that looks like 10x better than the failcast HD upgrade kit GW is selling.

3 Gauss Blasters required: You basically take the first Gauss Blaster in its entirety, then glue the barrel part of two more guns to the end of the first one, pop on the end-piece and voila, there you have it.

If interested, I can take and post a pic of my conversions when I get home. Super easy and I think the copnversion looks better than the original.

 skoffs wrote:
Still not sure about mixed D/HD units...

(hint: convince me)

Well, the point of the Heavy D. is to diversify the potential targets of the unit.

Here are some rough numbers. (Assume everything is in a D Cult and thus gets rerolls to wound/pen)

3 Destroyers kills 4.1 MEQ on average.
2 Destroyers with 1 Heavy D. kills 3.52 MEQ on average.
If you round those then you're still at 4 each but there is a good chance of there being a shot difference.

So it's true a Heavy D. is not optimal for killing MEQ and infantry with worse than a 3+ save. Outside of that though...

vs MCs with T6 and 2+ 5++ saves (Dreadknights):
3D: .43
2D1HD: .79

vs TEQ
3D: .69
2D1HD: 1.22

vs IK front armor with shield up (worst case for a Heavy D):
3 D : .45 HPs
2D1HD: .59 HPs

vs AV 12:
3D: .91
2D1HD: 1.29

vs MCs with T6 and 3+ saves (Hive Tyrants):
3D: 2.59
2D1HD: 2.48

vs Wraithknights:
3D: .91
2D1HD: 1.29

So basicly, when you shoot at AV or 2+ saves the destroyers receive a fairly decent buff by having the Heavy D. While only receiving a slight nerf against 3+ or worse armor saves (with T7+ being the exception).

For me, I'm going to be shooting vehicles most of the time with my D. Cult because they're in the best position to do so (they can deep strike and shoot from multiple angles with decent mobility and range). The rest of my army will focus on the infantry. So having that Heavy D for a mere 10 points is worth it and it doesn't completely remove their ability to take on MEQ. I also didn't factor in the possibility of rolling a penetrating hit against vehicles in my calculations. A regular Destroyer has 0 chance of causing an extra d3 HPs to an IK while a Heavy D has at least a little bit of chance of doing so.

PS: Sorry for the long post but I was bored and felt like doing maths, lol.

 jasper76 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Still not sure about mixed D/HD units...

(hint: convince me)

Regular Destroyers are obviously very good at taking down MEQs, but against high AV targets, they can't hurt anything.

destroyers are still gauss so while its a long shot on rolling 6's they technically can hurt high av. I'm personally not a fan of mixing them. I would only do it if taking a decurion and I had to take destroyer cult, but thats the main reason I havent been using that.

Khornatedemon wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Still not sure about mixed D/HD units...

(hint: convince me)

Regular Destroyers are obviously very good at taking down MEQs, but against high AV targets, they can't hurt anything.

destroyers are still gauss so while its a long shot on rolling 6's they technically can hurt high av. I'm personally not a fan of mixing them. I would only do it if taking a decurion and I had to take destroyer cult, but thats the main reason I havent been using that.

Right you are

I guess so far, within the DCult, I have been thinking of the 'regular' Destroyers (6 min) as "taxes" (or 'added anti-infantry') for the main course, which to me is 'lascannon' Heavy Support from the Heavy Destroyers (6 max). 6 2-wound/super-FNP Lascannons rerolling 1s to Hit at BS4 (or better) and rerolling all Armor Pens/To Wounds. Yes please!

I should say I play in a vehicle-heavy meta, so high-S, low-AP is at a premium.

 jasper76 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'll hopefully be adding some HDs to my regular squads as well, as soon as GW gets more in stock. >.>

Dude, if you have any extra Gauss Blasters laying around, you can pretty easily convert a Heavy Destroyer upgrade that looks like 10x better than the failcast HD upgrade kit GW is selling.

3 Gauss Blasters required: You basically take the first Gauss Blaster in its entirety, then glue the barrel part of two more guns to the end of the first one, pop on the end-piece and voila, there you have it.

If interested, I can take and post a pic of my conversions when I get home. Super easy and I think the copnversion looks better than the original.

I dunno, I actually like the kit. Plus I'm lazy lol. I'm okay with waiting anyway, I have two to use until then. However, I don't wanna wait for Orikan and Obyron to get back in stock. Darn you, GW.

I'll dig up a pic for you later, just so you can see what I'm talking about.

I don't so much mind the existing kit, as much as I bought one, and it was hopelessly bent (tried the hot water thing, was able to straighten it out a little better, but after drying, right back to the original bent position). GW replaced it through the mail, and the replacement kit was also hopelessly bent. They replaced it again, and the third kit I got was also hopelessly bent. So it was a "third strike" situation for me, after which I just started converting them, and IMO the conversions look better...only speaking for my opinion here.

Yeah, conversions work better.

I have three types of Heavy Destroyer myself:

1: Unit one, I bought the conversion kits, realised how useless the barrels are and cut the barell off the Heavy Gauss cannon and replaced it with the spare guns from my Barge kits.

2: Then I made Destroyer Crypteks by sticking a gauss cannon to the end of a Tesla Carbine and having a Deathmark upper body hold it.

3: And finally, by that point I had enough spare Destroyer parts to just give them double length green plastic rod Gauss Cannon arms. Shortened actual arm to look a smidge more like the original.

 jasper76 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Still not sure about mixed D/HD units...

(hint: convince me)

Regular Destroyers are obviously very good at taking down MEQs, but against high AV targets, they can't hurt anything.

destroyers are still gauss so while its a long shot on rolling 6's they technically can hurt high av. I'm personally not a fan of mixing them. I would only do it if taking a decurion and I had to take destroyer cult, but thats the main reason I havent been using that.

Right you are

I guess so far, within the DCult, I have been thinking of the 'regular' Destroyers (6 min) as "taxes" (or 'added anti-infantry') for the main course, which to me is 'lascannon' Heavy Support from the Heavy Destroyers (6 max). 6 2-wound/super-FNP Lascannons rerolling 1s to Hit at BS4 (or better) and rerolling all Armor Pens/To Wounds. Yes please!

I should say I play in a vehicle-heavy meta, so high-S, low-AP is at a premium.

I do as well. Plenty of good lascannon targets locally for me and thats why I moved away from the dcult to just bringing straight heavy destroyers. I bring the anni nexus as a way to mitigate using up all my HS slots and bring more guns. The doomsday ark is pretty meh for me so far but people get very scared of it and it's a great denial unit.

Three normal and one heavy is a pretty good spot. 7 AP 3 or better shots rerolling wounds punches a good sized hole in most units caught in the open, adds a few glances to your pen, and might luck into a second unsaved wound on 2+ armour units without making the unit footprint so huge you can't scurry behind terrain.

Two normal and one heavy does feel more like split focus than all around pain though.

Ok I don't understand the advocates for mixing the units at all. It would be like having a multimelta (a gun obviously meant to shoot tanks) in a unit that has a bunch of heavy bolters (a gun obviously meant to mow down infantry).

The phrase "increased target diversity" is actually not something you want, because what it really means is "half or more of my unit is shooting at the wrong thing evey turn". The range discrepancy is especially painful for heavy destroyers. They would love to stay back (and therefore, more safe) but the short range of regular destroyers pulls them into the range of more nastiness, whether via assault or shorter ranged shooting.

I (like skoffs) would love to have someone explain to me why I'm wrong, but I just don't see the benefit. Sorry I can't contribute to the optimal number/unit composition much as I haven't run anything but D Lords. My general rule of thumb is to give up as few kill points as possible (especially early on of course). Something to consider is that if you don't have some decent BLOS terrain, you will probably have to decide if it's better to have one man destroyer units (no matter how many you have) and likely give up first blood, or to deploy all those units in reserve, and hope they can contribute whenever they come in. Neither are strategies that I really think are worthwhile

It's less of a problem for Destroyers than most units because both guns, due to gauss and both having low AP values, are still comfortably able to contribute something to the other's ideal target.

Also in my all-destroyer army, having eleven Lascannons on the table instead of just six is a big plus.

Here's the HD conversion I was talking about. No claims to good paint jobs (or straight lines for that matter). The blasters were from the Tomb Blade kit, the socket on the gun fit the arm perfectly. I think if extra Immortal blasters were available it could be done fairly easily with those as well.

 jasper76 wrote:
Here's the HD conversion I was talking about. No claims to good paint jobs (or straight lines for that matter). The blasters were from the Tomb Blade kit, the socket on the gun fit the arm perfectly. I think if extra Immortal blasters were available it could be done fairly easily with those as well.

Thats actually not too bad looking.

Yeah I don't think I'd go with the 3 , but 2 would to my eye look perfect, however it still with 3 looks good.

1 x HD and 2 x regulars

or

3 x HD's

My best load out.

If 3 x HD's ill generally start them on the board for long range anti tank and objective campers JSJ means they are invulnerable to return fire if behind a wall. 1 x HD and 2 x D's I deep strike in to take out tanks, MSU units and/or steal backfield objectives.

bodazoka wrote:
1 x HD and 2 x regulars

or

3 x HD's

My best load out.

If 3 x HD's ill generally start them on the board for long range anti tank and objective campers JSJ means they are invulnerable to return fire if behind a wall. 1 x HD and 2 x D's I deep strike in to take out tanks, MSU units and/or steal backfield objectives.

Do you take zahndrekh if you're deepstriking so you can max out how many you get or do you not mind spreading out the number of reserves that enter throughout the game?

I run them as 2 destroyers 1 heavy when I take the cult. And then I run them as 1 squad of 3 in a cad. The cult gets really expensive fast and the 2-1 ratio let's you limit the costs while still giving you the ability to devastate armour. Since the cult allows really roll of penetration the destroyers are actually decent fighting armour and are great against meq, whereas heavies are great against armour and teq while still being good against meq. Outside of the cult however the destroyers don't have this bonus and are thus less optimal against armour.

xpress907 wrote:
Do you take zahndrekh if you're deepstriking so you can max out how many you get or do you not mind spreading out the number of reserves that enter throughout the game?

I don't mind spreading them out, it's not for an alpha/beta strike. As long as one of them comes in and I get a crack at an objective grab or taking out a tank/MSU unit I'm happy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Punisher wrote:
I run them as 2 destroyers 1 heavy when I take the cult. And then I run them as 1 squad of 3 in a cad. The cult gets really expensive fast and the 2-1 ratio let's you limit the costs while still giving you the ability to devastate armour. Since the cult allows really roll of penetration the destroyers are actually decent fighting armour and are great against meq, whereas heavies are great against armour and teq while still being good against meq. Outside of the cult however the destroyers don't have this bonus and are thus less optimal against armour.

^ Agreed.

I always take them in the cult, my list atm starts with a cult and goes from there.

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok I don't understand the advocates for mixing the units at all. It would be like having a multimelta (a gun obviously meant to shoot tanks) in a unit that has a bunch of heavy bolters (a gun obviously meant to mow down infantry).

The phrase "increased target diversity" is actually not something you want, because what it really means is "half or more of my unit is shooting at the wrong thing evey turn". The range discrepancy is especially painful for heavy destroyers. They would love to stay back (and therefore, more safe) but the short range of regular destroyers pulls them into the range of more nastiness, whether via assault or shorter ranged shooting.

I (like skoffs) would love to have someone explain to me why I'm wrong, but I just don't see the benefit. Sorry I can't contribute to the optimal number/unit composition much as I haven't run anything but D Lords. My general rule of thumb is to give up as few kill points as possible (especially early on of course). Something to consider is that if you don't have some decent BLOS terrain, you will probably have to decide if it's better to have one man destroyer units (no matter how many you have) and likely give up first blood, or to deploy all those units in reserve, and hope they can contribute whenever they come in. Neither are strategies that I really think are worthwhile

Someone already DID explain to you why you're wrong. Utilize the scroll function to move seven posts above you. A gentleman was gracious enough to do the math for us and it turns out that for a mere 10 points, 2 D + 1 HD is superior damage output against all but two targets: MEQ and T6 3+ MCs. With the latter, it's such a marginal difference, 1.5%.

2 x 3 HD

Why bother with Heavy Destroyers when your average Warrior can deal a hull point on a 6?

10 Necron Warriors (130 points, a likely mandatory troop choice) pointing their flayers at a vehicle do 1 HP damage regardless of enemy AV.

3 Heavy Destroyers (150 points) firing at AV 12 do 1 HP damage, and even less vs higher AV.

So the only time H Destroyers are better than your average Warrior squad is when targeting AV 11 or AV 10. But when was the last time Necrons were afraid of AV10/11 that they needed specialists to take care of it? I'd rather fill that Heavy Support slot with a Monolith and take my chances with the S9 ordnance roll-2D6-and-pick-the-highest pie plate for 50 points more and get a solid marine killing tool and general 4HP AV 14 IWND 6+ fire magnet in the process. The only thing I lose out on are 1.66 insta-gib AP2 wounds directed at incoming TEQ.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Why bother with Heavy Destroyers when your average Warrior can deal a hull point on a 6?

10 Necron Warriors (130 points, a likely mandatory troop choice) pointing their flayers at a vehicle do 1 HP damage regardless of enemy AV.

3 Heavy Destroyers (150 points) firing at AV 12 do 1 HP damage, and even less vs higher AV.

So the only time H Destroyers are better than your average Warrior squad is when targeting AV 11 or AV 10. But when was the last time Necrons were afraid of AV10/11 that they needed specialists to take care of it? I'd rather fill that Heavy Support slot with a Monolith and take my chances with the S9 ordnance roll-2D6-and-pick-the-highest pie plate for 50 points more and get a solid marine killing tool and general 4HP AV 14 IWND 6+ fire magnet in the process. The only thing I lose out on are 1.66 insta-gib AP2 wounds directed at incoming TEQ.

I'm not sure the monolith is more durable than 6 wounds at T5 with 3+/Jink and protocals, then jump shoot jump to have to target them in the first place.
I do know that a monolith is crippled by it's terribly slow speed and fairly short range.
Yeah, warriors at point blank (12") outperform heavy destroyers at 36". Well duh. It's like saying don't take lascannons because melta bombs are better.
But guess what? You don't want to be that close, or you might not be able to get that close.

Anyhow, I'll have to double check the formations, but I think it's possible to get 26 heavy destroyers into a 1850 point list. That's a lot of pain you'd have to deal with, and one of few lists that can shoot wave serpent spam off the table.

... Destroyers can jink?

 skoffs wrote:
... Destroyers can jink?

My bad, was thinking jetbikes not jet packs.