Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Whenever I see some suggesting a monolith as anything close to a viable option all I can think of is do grav cents not exist in your meta? A unit that you can't hurt with the lith can't hide from cause your massive and you can't shoot anything due to your short range and speed not allowing you to kite them. Plus they kill you in 1 volley so your expensive tank is just dead immediately.

Heavies are the most versatile unit in the codex since they can threaten anything except hordes and flyers.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Why bother with Heavy Destroyers when your average Warrior can deal a hull point on a 6?

10 Necron Warriors (130 points, a likely mandatory troop choice) pointing their flayers at a vehicle do 1 HP damage regardless of enemy AV.

3 Heavy Destroyers (150 points) firing at AV 12 do 1 HP damage, and even less vs higher AV.

So the only time H Destroyers are better than your average Warrior squad is when targeting AV 11 or AV 10. But when was the last time Necrons were afraid of AV10/11 that they needed specialists to take care of it? I'd rather fill that Heavy Support slot with a Monolith and take my chances with the S9 ordnance roll-2D6-and-pick-the-highest pie plate for 50 points more and get a solid marine killing tool and general 4HP AV 14 IWND 6+ fire magnet in the process. The only thing I lose out on are 1.66 insta-gib AP2 wounds directed at incoming TEQ.

Conventional wisdom isn't always right, but it is conventional for a reason. We've had a few months of play-testing including 3 major tournaments and not many competitive lists include monoliths whereas many include Heavy Ds. Especially in the cult, re-rolling to pen is huge. The monolith's range is limited which is a problem when its mobility is minimal. More tournaments are including some element of Maelstrom. Mobility is paramount. Heavy Ds not only bring firepower and resilience but can also move an avg of 13" a turn without a run. and you have to measure point-for-point. 4 Heavy Destroyers against 1 Monolith. Would you rather have 4 mobile lascannons that re-roll to pen or 4 slow gauss flayers and an ordnance template?

Most people would choose the former.

Punisher wrote:
Whenever I see some suggesting a monolith as anything close to a viable option all I can think of is do grav cents not exist in your meta? A unit that you can't hurt with the lith can't hide from cause your massive and you can't shoot anything due to your short range and speed not allowing you to kite them. Plus they kill you in 1 volley so your expensive tank is just dead immediately.

Heavies are the most versatile unit in the codex since they can threaten anything except hordes and flyers.

I have two players (that rarely show up to the shop anymore) that have centurions, but there are ways around them. For instance, don't deep strike a monolith within range, derp. And shoot them before they get close. We have Doom Scythes and Doomsday arks for a reason.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Punisher wrote:
Whenever I see some suggesting a monolith as anything close to a viable option all I can think of is do grav cents not exist in your meta? A unit that you can't hurt with the lith can't hide from cause your massive and you can't shoot anything due to your short range and speed not allowing you to kite them. Plus they kill you in 1 volley so your expensive tank is just dead immediately.

Heavies are the most versatile unit in the codex since they can threaten anything except hordes and flyers.

I have two players (that rarely show up to the shop anymore) that have centurions, but there are ways around them. For instance, don't deep strike a monolith within range, derp. And shoot them before they get close. We have Doom Scythes and Doomsday arks for a reason.

Fair enough, but a lot of players will find a way to give cents invisibility making doom scythes and arks useless against them.

Anyway does anyone have any experience running Heavies as 1 model? Was thinking of including a couple 1 unit heavies but am a little concerned about the first blood risk. Anyone had any success with them used this way?

Punisher wrote:

Fair enough, but a lot of players will find a way to give cents invisibility making doom scythes and arks useless against them.

Well, Invisibility is broken in itself, and using that as an argument is rather invalid in my opinion, as what would any army do against Invisible Cents?

 krodarklorr wrote:
what would any army do against Invisible Cents?

... Culexus?

I was comparing one 3 man Heavy Destroyer unit occupying 1 Heavy Support slot in a normal CAD to 1 Monolith occupying 1 HS slot in a normal CAD. Dunno why people complain about Monolith's immobility when it can deepstrike. If you're worried about Centurions, terminators and the like, you can take a Doomsday Ark instead - that way you also dont have to worry about range and in the worst case can relocate 12" to get LoS, and a S10 AP1 2D6 pick the highest roll is pretty solid against armor as well.

Of course if you look at formations the H Destroyers get better but remember you need a Destroyer Lord and at least 150 points of normal Destroyers (so a total of around 300 more points needed) to give your 150 point 3 Heavy Destroyer unit tankhunter and re-roll wounds.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I was comparing one 3 man Heavy Destroyer unit occupying 1 Heavy Support slot in a normal CAD to 1 Monolith occupying 1 HS slot in a normal CAD.

Of course if you look at formations the H Destroyers get better but remember you need a Destroyer Lord and at least 150 points of normal Destroyers (so a total of around 300 more points needed) to give your 150 point 3 Heavy Destroyer unit tankhunter and re-roll wounds.

It's 470 points for the lord and 3 minimum sized destroyer units.

IMO, double CAD is the best way to spam heavy destroyers.
You get 4x5 immortals, 2 lords as HQ (cheap) and 6 units of 1 destoryers as fast attack (upgraded to heavy destoryer) and 6 units of 3 heavy destroyers as heavy support.
It's 24 heavy destroyers for 1640 points.
Cheap enough to squeeze in a few other options to go with your 24 lascannons...

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
It's 470 points for the lord and 3 minimum sized destroyer units.

110 + 40 + 40+ 40 = 230

 Sir Arun wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
It's 470 points for the lord and 3 minimum sized destroyer units.

110 + 40 + 40+ 40 = 230

You have to bring at least 3 destroyers in each unit, it's the Restriction on the formation. So 110 + 120 + 120 + 120 = 470

ah, skipped that part thanks

Heavies are one of the best kiting units in the game which is why even if your opponent has extremely powerful units you don't have to worry about them. With one of the longest ranged weapons in the codex they have a reach of 42 inches whereas if you are kiting an enemy they require on average 43 inches to tag the heavies and that not taking into account how they can abuse Los blocking terrain. So while they are "only" a lascannon they are an accurate one that is very difficult to catch and thus kill with the added bonus of having an objective grabbing reach of an average 16 inches and a maximum of 24 inches so they are really a jack of all trades useful no matter who you face or what they bring. Whereas something like a monolith has hard counters and is only really useful to drop a battle cannon and situational redeployment of infantry since it's so slow it's not going to get anywhere faster than foots logging troops and deep strike is a huge risk with as large of a footprint it has.

While 24 HDs in a list is an incredibly appealing idea, were it to come up against hordes, you'd be a little screwed.
I'd say 18 HDs (3x3 in Heavy slot x2 CAD) with 20 Vane-Scope-Gauss (VSG) Tomb Blades (2x5 in the Fast slot x2 CAD) might cover your bases a bit better. Comes out to 1340 points, leaving you enough left over to add in the required 2x HQ and 4x Troops, as long as you keep them cheap. Might even be able to afford to throw some Beamers on a couple units of TBs to thin out hordes easier.

I think unless you want to go all Destroyer army the formation is a perfect amount of guys.

I wouldn't take mixed squads in a CAD, but in the Cult formation you have to have normal destroyers anyway and upgrading one of them to a heavy is only 10 points. Think of it like this: Is it worth it losing one shot for getting the option to shoot at tanks if you have to? For me it is. If normal gauss cannons had three shots it would be a harder decision, but for 10 points and one vs two shots, I'd take the heavy in normal squads too. They're still almost as good at killing marines but can also kill vehicles and hurt things with 2+ saves.

I like "6 solo Heavy Ds". It's a lot like playing ye old razorback armies but with the added advantage of being able to move-after-fire and poke holes in hard targets.