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I would also be keen to see the GK list - a well built list should be very capable (and likely) to win while using a paladinstar with allies

 Massaen wrote:
I would also be keen to see the GK list - a well built list should be very capable (and likely) to win while using a paladinstar with allies

Note: that something is wrong with a Codex if a "well built" list requires one specific tactic and allies. People like to freak about Dreadknights, but they're the weakest Monstrous Creatures on the field, and as shown on this thread are easily killable with AP2 or quantity of shooting (especially with poison).

Not disagreeing with this at all - my DE love facing most GK lists with DKnights.

I am more interested if the Palliestar was running the best config or not - the one with gate/invis/prescience

This config is very hard for DE to face.

There is nothing wrong with the GK codex - I never said there was or even implied it! I would even assert that the best pallie star build would NOT run Dknights vs DE but would against others if given the choice.

 KingCorpus wrote:
I played him, and I drowned everything in poison. The Dreadknights had to roll so many saves that they couldn't make all of them, not only that my Talos Pain engine instant killed one.

Everything else just melted from the amount of vollies I hit him with.

Nice win. With regards to the Talos, I've found that a Corpsethief Claw with TL Splinter Cannons and Ichor Injectors can easily handle 1-2 Dreadknights, In fact, I've moving away from Venoms more and more due to how badly the No Escape rule hurts DE and putting my shooting on MC platforms.

 Bill1138 wrote:
People like to freak about Dreadknights, but they're the weakest Monstrous Creatures on the field,

I'd like to know where this myth comes from. DKs are in no way weak. T6 is not weak. a 2+/5+ (usually 4++ with Sanctuary) is not weak, S10 is not weak, a S6 AP4 torrent flamer and a S7 AP4 Rending 6-shot gun are not weak, a 12" move and once-per-game 30" shunt is not weak.

 Bill1138 wrote:
and as shown on this thread are easily killable with AP2 or quantity of shooting (especially with poison).

Actually, DKs are more resistant to those than many MCs. A 2+ save is a good defence against massed fire - especially non-poison fire (most of which will need 5s or 6s to wound in the first place). Maybe it will go down, but it will take far more fire than would be efficient. And, even AP2 is far from effective, thanks to its easily-obtainable 4++. I mean, considering it takes 18 BS4 plasmagun shots to kill it, I's really struggle to label it as 'easily killable with AP2'.

 vipoid wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
People like to freak about Dreadknights, but they're the weakest Monstrous Creatures on the field,

I'd like to know where this myth comes from. DKs are in no way weak. T6 is not weak. a 2+/5+ (usually 4++ with Sanctuary) is not weak, S10 is not weak, a S6 AP4 torrent flamer and a S7 AP4 Rending 6-shot gun are not weak, a 12" move and once-per-game 30" shunt is not weak.

Weak in terms of survivability. The fact that you refer to this as a "myth" makes me inclined that you haven't fielded them as part of a Pure Grey Knight army. They are indeed the most cost-effective unit in the Grey Knight Codex, which makes them the shiniest unit in the army, which makes it a priority for the opponent to destroy. The game is currently very shooty, with plenty of AP2 shooting options available to most armies (not the Grey Knights though).

Even if Sanctuary goes off and doesn't Perils, that only buffs is Invul to a 50% chance. AP2 is still plenty effective. As for massed shooting, armies like Imperial Guard can field so many units that it doesn't really matter if they only wound on 6's.

And if you give a Dreadknight the Heavy Incinerator and Psycannon, on top of the Personal Teleporter as you suggest, he's already up to 215pts for a single model. You have to take into account opportunity costs. The more points you pour into Dreadknights, the less you have on the board, and the Grey Knights are often terribly outnumbered as it is.

 vipoid wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
and as shown on this thread are easily killable with AP2 or quantity of shooting (especially with poison).

Actually, DKs are more resistant to those than many MCs. A 2+ save is a good defence against massed fire - especially non-poison fire (most of which will need 5s or 6s to wound in the first place). Maybe it will go down, but it will take far more fire than would be efficient. And, even AP2 is far from effective, thanks to its easily-obtainable 4++. I mean, considering it takes 18 BS4 plasmagun shots to kill it, I's really struggle to label it as 'easily killable with AP2'.

Wraithknight has a T8, which makes it immune to S4 weapons. I'd take that with a 3+ over a 2+ T6 any day. Dreadknights are not more resistant than other MCs.

I'm not saying the Dreadknight is bad. I'm saying plenty of other Monstrous Creatures are better.

The dreadknight is more resilient than the Wraithknight in my experience. 3+ armor is a disaster. The drop from 2+ to 3+ is very, very huge. Perspective: I can kill and have killed wraithknights with krak missiles. Being immune to S4 is not that great, because not that many lists are relying on S4 for anything anymore.

 Bill1138 wrote:

Weak in terms of survivability. The fact that you refer to this as a "myth" makes me inclined that you haven't fielded them as part of a Pure Grey Knight army. They are indeed the most cost-effective unit in the Grey Knight Codex, which makes them the shiniest unit in the army, which makes it a priority for the opponent to destroy. The game is currently very shooty, with plenty of AP2 shooting options available to most armies (not the Grey Knights though).

I haven't used them myself, because I don't play GKs.

However, they've been fielded many times in my group - always as part of a pure GK army, and every time they've been both hard to remove (even with large quantities of poison and/or AP2), and also devastating to anything they touch.

Even if Sanctuary goes off and doesn't Perils, that only buffs is Invul to a 50% chance. AP2 is still plenty effective. As for massed shooting, armies like Imperial Guard can field so many units that it doesn't really matter if they only wound on 6's.

You act like a 4++ isn't good odds. I'm curious as to how you think Nid players cope - with no invulnerable saves whatsoever.

And if you give a Dreadknight the Heavy Incinerator and Psycannon, on top of the Personal Teleporter as you suggest, he's already up to 215pts for a single model. You have to take into account opportunity costs. The more points you pour into Dreadknights, the less you have on the board, and the Grey Knights are often terribly outnumbered as it is.

That's still a personal choice though. I mean, you can ignore their shooting and have a cheap MC that can move 12" per turn and is S10 with Force.

Many MCs don't have the option to just gain a 12" move for a marginal point cost.

Wraithknight has a T8, which makes it immune to S4 weapons. I'd take that with a 3+ over a 2+ T6 any day. Dreadknights are not more resistant than other MCs.

Get your DK in melee with that WK and see which is the most resilient.

S10 Force weapons will kill virtually any MC in the game in one round.

The WK is nasty though. Although, I find it a little strange that you complain about a fully-kitted DK being 215, but praise the survivability of a WK which is 240 base.

I'm not saying the Dreadknight is bad. I'm saying plenty of other Monstrous Creatures are better.

And I'm disagreeing. I think very few MCs are better than the DK. The only ones I can think of are the Flyrant (which would be fine if the rules for flyers weren't a complete mess), the Riptide and the aforementioned WK.

 KingCorpus wrote:
I played him, and I drowned everything in poison. The Dreadknights had to roll so many saves that they couldn't make all of them, not only that my Talos Pain engine instant killed one.

Everything else just melted from the amount of vollies I hit him with.

Not surprising, but very well played sir.

I'm a little surprised that he had a DK in range of your Talos without activating Force since you swing at the same time, unless he didn't bother with the melee weapon upgrade which is a poor idea IMO.

Now you get to see if he tries adapting his list for next time.

Freezerassasin wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
I played him, and I drowned everything in poison. The Dreadknights had to roll so many saves that they couldn't make all of them, not only that my Talos Pain engine instant killed one.

Everything else just melted from the amount of vollies I hit him with.

Not surprising, but very well played sir.

I'm a little surprised that he had a DK in range of your Talos without activating Force since you swing at the same time, unless he didn't bother with the melee weapon upgrade which is a poor idea IMO.

Now you get to see if he tries adapting his list for next time.

He shot it infront of my two Talos pain engines..I think he wanted to instant kill them with force, but didnt get a single to hit even with a master-crafted sword.

 KingCorpus wrote:


He shot it infront of my two Talos pain engines..I think he wanted to instant kill them with force, but didnt get a single to hit even with a master-crafted sword.

Ouch, that is very unfortunate for him.

His list looked something like this..

HQs:

2x Librarians, one with the book, one taking Pyro, the other taking Sanctuary.

Elites:

2x 5 man paladin squads (Hehe, I dont think he shouldve brought 2)

Troops:

2x 5 man terminator squads

Fast Attack:

1x 5 Man guys that can shunt 30" one time a game.

Heavy Support:

2x Dreadknights each with the sword

Allied

1x Aegis defense line.


My list of DE

HQ:

Succubus w/ Glaive, WWP, Helm of MIsery

Elite:

2x 5 man Trueborn w/ 2 splinter cannons in Venoms w/ double splinter cannon

Troops:

2x 5 man kabalites in Venoms

2x 10 man squads in Raiders, with splinter racks

Fast attack:

1x 5 man Scourge unit with 4 splinter cannons
2x Razorwings with DC, SC, and 4 toxin missiles.

Heavy Support:

2 Talos Pain Engines with Ichor Injectors and splinter cannons





My WWP didnt get used because he put just 2 dreadknights and the shunter squad down. So I just put my Engines w/ my succubus hiding in some ruins and braced the storm until my reserves would spread the table in my favor.

Turn 1: All his things deep striked, but only about half were in shooting ranged of my Engines. Despite everything having a rending strength 7 gun, no wounds were done cause of my saves. Also..one of his terminator squads was destroyed in deep striking (This was hilarious...) He shunted his dreadknight infront of my Engine squad, I then charged after shooting my turn. My shooting caused 1 wound. My Engines rolled 2 6's with instant death after he missed all his attacks, and he didnt save one.

Turn 2: He advanced another Termie squad into my pain engines, and they were swiftly defeated after killing one on overwatch. Nothing else besides my engines taking no wounds from awesome saves. My 2 trueborns came in..and my 2 raiders, plus 2 flyers. I put my two raiders within double tap of his second dreadknight, this dreadknight took the boat fire + some of the trueborns which ended up killing him. The boats and second truborn almost wiped the shunting squad. My flyers focused down one of the paladin troops and left it with only 3 out of 6 alive.



So without even saying the rest of the game..I hope you guys can get a decent idea, but I surrounded his army on my table edge and prioritized the killing of the dreadknights and termies, leaving the paladins to slug around.

Freezerassasin wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:


He shot it infront of my two Talos pain engines..I think he wanted to instant kill them with force, but didnt get a single to hit even with a master-crafted sword.

Ouch, that is very unfortunate for him.

But not uncommon for Grey Knights in my experience.

Aegis defence line seems like an odd choice for a GK army.

I wouldn't have thought they'd have the range to make good use of it.

Martel732 wrote:
The dreadknight is more resilient than the Wraithknight in my experience. 3+ armor is a disaster. The drop from 2+ to 3+ is very, very huge. Perspective: I can kill and have killed wraithknights with krak missiles. Being immune to S4 is not that great, because not that many lists are relying on S4 for anything anymore.

Half of the armies in the game rely on S4, making S4 the average, not a rarity.

SJ

Half the armies in the game might have S4, but I'm not sure any rely on it to kill MCs.

 vipoid wrote:
Half the armies in the game might have S4, but I'm not sure any rely on it to kill MCs.

You said that not that many armies rely on S4 for anything anymore. I just pointed out that your statement was incorrect. Also, several Armies use weight of fire to kill MCs. In point of fact, I don't know of any army other than Imperial Knights that don't use weight if fire to kill MCs.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

You said that not that many armies rely on S4 for anything anymore.

Please quote where I said that.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Half the armies in the game might have S4, but I'm not sure any rely on it to kill MCs.

You said that not that many armies rely on S4 for anything anymore. I just pointed out that your statement was incorrect. Also, several Armies use weight of fire to kill MCs. In point of fact, I don't know of any army other than Imperial Knights that don't use weight if fire to kill MCs.

SJ

S4 is practically useless in 7th, so I don't think anyone is relying on it for any real heavy lifting. If they are, they are probably losing. S4 might not be rare, but it's rare that it actually accomplishes anything worthwhile. One turn of grav cent fire can cause more wounds to my BA than an entire game of marine bolter fire. That, among other reasons, makes S4 pitiful; particularly on an expensive model. It's more passable on a cheap unit like a shoota boy, but still not really that fearsome anymore.

I don't use weight of fire for MCs; I use grav, plasma, poison, and melta. Not a single regular bolter is fired at MCs. I know what the odds are, and they are awful.

How did the scourge with splinter cannons work out for you?
It's more expensive that a pair of venoms with the same firepower, only the venoms are much more mobile.

I'm running a Void Bomber now, and it really makes opponents run after deep striking. 4++ or not, you don't want to be clustered up with a pair of S8 AP2 blasts floating around, and another 2 S6 AP2 blasts from the missiles.

If you want fun with webway... 20 guardians with 2 platforms = 46 blade storm shots. It will leave a sizeable mark.

-Matt

 vipoid wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

You said that not that many armies rely on S4 for anything anymore.

Please quote where I said that.

I'll quote my quote of the quote in question:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The dreadknight is more resilient than the Wraithknight in my experience. 3+ armor is a disaster. The drop from 2+ to 3+ is very, very huge. Perspective: I can kill and have killed wraithknights with krak missiles. Being immune to S4 is not that great, because not that many lists are relying on S4 for anything anymore.

Half of the armies in the game rely on S4, making S4 the average, not a rarity.

SJ

Bolded and underlined.

SJ

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
How did the scourge with splinter cannons work out for you?
It's more expensive that a pair of venoms with the same firepower, only the venoms are much more mobile.

I'm running a Void Bomber now, and it really makes opponents run after deep striking. 4++ or not, you don't want to be clustered up with a pair of S8 AP2 blasts floating around, and another 2 S6 AP2 blasts from the missiles.

If you want fun with webway... 20 guardians with 2 platforms = 46 blade storm shots. It will leave a sizeable mark.

-Matt

I ran the scourges for fun, no real idea behind just to have another shooting platform really, and have a nice little deepstriking unit on the other side of the table as he pushed forward. I debated or not bringing my voidbomber but decided not to, just meh right. 2 razorwings do wonders anyway.

I'm not really into allying with Eldar atm. Maybe only during tournaments though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Aegis defence line seems like an odd choice for a GK army.

I wouldn't have thought they'd have the range to make good use of it.

He brought it just to re-roll reserve rolls. I used it against him in the end.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

You said that not that many armies rely on S4 for anything anymore.

Please quote where I said that.

I'll quote my quote of the quote in question:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The dreadknight is more resilient than the Wraithknight in my experience. 3+ armor is a disaster. The drop from 2+ to 3+ is very, very huge. Perspective: I can kill and have killed wraithknights with krak missiles. Being immune to S4 is not that great, because not that many lists are relying on S4 for anything anymore.

Half of the armies in the game rely on S4, making S4 the average, not a rarity.

SJ

Bolded and underlined.

SJ

You seem to have missed the part where that quote isn't mine.

You seem to have missed the part where that quote isn't mine.

Nope, got that. It was just the flavor of the whine was the same.

SJ

My apologies, I must have mistaken you for a reasonable person.

In future I'll be sure to remember that you're just an donkey-cave.

Plz stop fighting on a thread the OP wants to use as a source for useful information.

In the past, My friend would play GK(back during the matt ward days). I hated them.. one friend played GK, the other played BA. I was over whelmed with storm ravens and flamers.

Now it is worst than before since models in open top transports can be hurt. I have found a few different tactics that work(sacrifice has to be made). My first tactic was able to by time, Wyches to tarpit the Dknight and allow my army to focus on the rest of the army. My 2nd tactic would be to send in some grots/wracks or anything with ID poision.

Baitting him seems to be the only way Ive been able to keep my death count low...But it gets the job done.

Nice win man - though I must say this guys list is GAK. 2 squads of palis is basically auto lose. Like I said he was gimping himself with one squad of em. Aegis defense line - basically the biggest waste of points a GK could ever take.

I know Paladins are pretty useless against DE, but are they useful against any other armies?

Or, is it better to just use terminators and either have more of them or spend the extra points elsewhere?

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I will say this is not a match up you should win. Torrent flamers and cleansing flame are basically GG for DE.

I don't know about that. They can be horrendous, but they're not insurmountable. I mean, he only has 2 Torrent Flamers, and Cleansing Flame either requires a random roll on the psychic table, or unit(s) of Purifiers - which can probably be avoided for most of the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really wouldn't put anything in transports that isn't deep striking.

Honestly, I don't like this idea. Deep Striking is risky, and also forces you to put yourself in the open. I mean, those DKs are going to be a pain as long as they're alive - so I'd rather focus on shielding my army from the less mobile elements of the GK army. Also, DE venoms and Ravagers have a significant range advantage over GKs, and it seems a shame to squander it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Your best bet for vicitory is taking a lot of DS venoms full of blaster born.

I disagree - Blasterborn are too expensive and too much of a liability. One Torrent Flamer is basically 120pts down the drain (not even including their transport). Warrior squads don't pack as much punch, but at least if one dies it's only 45pts. Also, with their 4++ saves (after Sanctuary), Blasters aren't exactly ideal against DKs to begin with. I'd rather just torrent them down with Venoms (can always turn the Ravagers on them, if needs be).

 Xenomancers wrote:
Luckily hes only bringing 2 - I always bring 3. He's also hindering himself with paladins too waste of points - blasters 1 shot them and you are very mobile.

On this, at least, we agree.

2 DKs at 2000pts isn't too bad, and paladins are the sort of unit that just makes my DE shrug. "Ok, you're really terrifying in combat...now have fun getting there."

Reason I said don't put anything in transports is simple. We can roast you inside your open toppers - then you are soul blazed which is actually a big deal for t3 5+ models. I can probably blow you up in a turn of fire too. Theres basically no way you can stop me from doing that with almost a 48 inch threat range on those shunt torrent flamers. A smart DE will just hold them in reserve and DS in rapid fire range with 20 twin link poison shots. Better than getting fried first add some blaster venom drops with 2x SC...GG DK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I know Paladins are pretty useless against DE, but are they useful against any other armies?

Or, is it better to just use terminators and either have more of them or spend the extra points elsewhere?

Nah - never take them. Waste of point's. GKT as troops aren't bad though. 195 gets you a pretty capable unit with more firepower and objective secured. Not that I would take them If I didn't have to - they just aren't terrible as a troop tax.

Oh, I'm well aware that you can roast my guys inside their transports, maybe even take down the transports too. However, if you're doing that, then you're jumping to my side of the field and putting yourself in range of my blasters and splinter rifles.

I'll happily trade 240pts of warriors and venoms if it lets me kill both DKs in my turn.

(No, I'm not above using my Warriors as bait - I'm a bastard that way. )