Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since we're all basically wishlisting I'll go ahead and list what I hope happens.

1. Significantly buffed Phoenix Lords. Every single one with some sort of invulnerable save. Plus much improved guns, holy hell are their guns bad. Seriously, a 220 pt model that has an 18in range, strength 4, AP5, Assault 2, pseudo rending, twin-linked gun, is not worth it. That is basically the same as a 13 point dire avenger, just twin linked. Sure Asurmen's sword is cool but why the hell would he be in an assault as a dire avenger, it makes no sense.

2. If they really want a lord of war, make it the Avatar. You can only take one per detachment already, it would make sense that the Avatar would be the LOW and free up an HQ slot for something more useful. But he definitely needs a speed boost IMO.

3. Make Eldrad useful again. Ever since they nerfed Eldrad into the ground after everyone allied him in to be an anti-psyker, I haven't heard of anyone using him in 6th let alone 7th.

4. New Swooping Hawk models. I love the scourge models with their huge, cool looking wings and I would love if swooping hawks would get the same treatment since lets be honest, their wings are tiny as gak and don't look very impressive.

5. Some way of getting an aspect warrior across the board without having to resort to transport. Battle focus was supposed to help with that but now that there is so much ignore cover it is essentially impossible to run footdar and have any chance of winning.

Those are the top things I think need to happen IMO. What are your thoughts?

 Talys wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The eldar range needs a lot of love.

Seriously. We're talking about one of the oldest armies in the game, and 3/4 of its infantry model range is Finecast.

Not to mention that pretty much all of the plastics that don't have the word "Wraith" in the unit name are pitifully outdated.

Yeah, but I'm just talking about the lack of plastic, period.

If we prioritized by "Whose plastic kits are the worst", Eldar would be well behind Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard and Tau.

 Lynchbread wrote:
Since we're all basically wishlisting I'll go ahead and list what I hope happens.

1. Significantly buffed Phoenix Lords. Every single one with some sort of invulnerable save. Plus much improved guns, holy hell are their guns bad. Seriously, a 220 pt model that has an 18in range, strength 4, AP5, Assault 2, pseudo rending, twin-linked gun, is not worth it. That is basically the same as a 13 point dire avenger, just twin linked. Sure Asurmen's sword is cool but why the hell would he be in an assault as a dire avenger, it makes no sense.

2. If they really want a lord of war, make it the Avatar. You can only take one per detachment already, it would make sense that the Avatar would be the LOW and free up an HQ slot for something more useful. But he definitely needs a speed boost IMO.

3. Make Eldrad useful again. Ever since they nerfed Eldrad into the ground after everyone allied him in to be an anti-psyker, I haven't heard of anyone using him in 6th let alone 7th.

4. New Swooping Hawk models. I love the scourge models with their huge, cool looking wings and I would love if swooping hawks would get the same treatment since lets be honest, their wings are tiny as gak and don't look very impressive.

5. Some way of getting an aspect warrior across the board without having to resort to transport. Battle focus was supposed to help with that but now that there is so much ignore cover it is essentially impossible to run footdar and have any chance of winning.

Those are the top things I think need to happen IMO. What are your thoughts?

I completely agree, on top of the nerf to the serpent shield you should be able to expend it for a turn for it to be an assault vehicle for that turn.
Also make pathfinders/ranger weapons better like they used to be.

I honestly love most of the Aspect Warrior sculpts. Jes Goodwins stuff holds up better than anything else! The Warp Spiders, often complained about, are such exquisite sculpts, especially the Exarch. Their only problem is the monopose.

Mymearan wrote:
I honestly love most of the Aspect Warrior sculpts. Jes Goodwins stuff holds up better than anything else! The Warp Spiders, often complained about, are such exquisite sculpts, especially the Exarch. Their only problem is the monopose.

I'd totally agree with that. The aspect sculpts are pretty ancient now and they still totally stand up. That's the skill of ol'Jes though eh?! They don't need to make many changes to the actual designs - just plasticate the wee buggers and put another nail in Finecast's rotten coffin

When are we likely to see:

A) A hint in the 'Next Week' part of the White Dwarf?
B) Actual pics of new models / rules etc.?

Likely in the White Dwarf after this forthcoming one, which is for the last Skitarii item(the Onager Dunecrawler).

I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

I'm all for reducing the power of the wave serpent. However if the shield is completely removed it's a 120 point scatter laser platform not including holo fields/ghost walk matrix.
That being said I'd rather the wave serpent be reduced in points than an increase to compensate for the shield.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

I'm all for reducing the power of the wave serpent. However if the shield is completely removed it's a 120 point scatter laser platform not including holo fields/ghost walk matrix.
That being said I'd rather the wave serpent be reduced in points than an increase to compensate for the shield.

You mean a 120 point 12/12/10 transport skimmer with jink and a scatter laser.

Harlequins have the Holofield changing to a straight up 5+ save. Just make the Serpent shield a replacement for the holofield, witha 5++ save, 4++ against attacks in the front arc, similar to the old energy shield iteration.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
similar to the old energy shield iteration.

The "old" shield was an impenetrable template that blocked LoS from both directions.

It could be fired as well. Making it not capable of shooting was a new thing.

The only drop the shield needs is in range. I've run mine at 6" since the book dropped, and it is fine. All the shield does on the defensive is keep it from exploding. Huge yes, but our troops need that level of protection. Guardians die like conscripts, but are worth 3 of them in price.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

No model bit?? What do you think those 6 antennae on the hull are?

 Garion wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

No model bit?? What do you think those 6 antennae on the hull are?

Indeed. Its a major part of what separate the serpent from the other skimmers and should be represented in the rules.
I would not mind a less expencive serpent with less effective shield though.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

I'm all for reducing the power of the wave serpent. However if the shield is completely removed it's a 120 point scatter laser platform not including holo fields/ghost walk matrix.
That being said I'd rather the wave serpent be reduced in points than an increase to compensate for the shield.

120 points for fast, skimmer, jink, 2+ to reduce pen to glance and scatter laser+shruiken (TL no less) and AV 12/12/10 3 HP with capacity of 12 models. A Hellhound costs 125 points bare bones. I honestly can't see how 120 points is expensive, even with nerfed shields (which my example above was.. I didn't even consider the Phil Kelly shields offensive capabilities).

130 points for that configuration. Cannon isn't stock

4x S6 AP6 @36"
3x S6 AP5 @24" <1 rend per 2 rounds of shooting (about one per 7 turns if jinking)

So a flying non-assault delivery platform. Lots of points, lots of survivability, moderate firepower.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

You believe that the reason very few take Falcons or Fire Prisms is because of the wave serpent? They're also fairly terrible vehicles.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

You believe that the reason very few take Falcons or Fire Prisms is because of the wave serpent? They're also fairly terrible vehicles.

They're not THAT bad, they just compete with War Walkers and Wraithknights.

I would like to see Falcons become a Dedicated Transport option alongside the Wave Serpent.

Lots of numbers were ran a while back comparing the TriLas Pred to the Brightlance Falcon in 6th.

Pred wins - per model - on firepower.
Survivability was endlessly debated. AV13 front is huge for the Pred, but AV11 sides hurt it. Sure, Jink, but the Falcon has no TL, and low ROF, so jinking hurts it hard. Pred can stay back with all weapons being 48", but Falcon has more mobility.

Compared to a TriLas Pred, a BL Falcon is just a little worse per model, if properly kitted. But is a little more expensive. And the TriLas pred isn't generally considered all that great.

So the Falcon is an inch short of being OK. Not terrible, but not that scary.

If scatter lasers keep the laser lock rule, I would bet it only works on a 6 to hit,(no bonus when snap shooting) The serpent is the heaviest tank we have, in regards to defense, (besides superheavy vehicles). It has little in the way is offense for its cost (not including the current shield) the holofields with most certainly will become the same as what are in the Harlequin codex. So what you have is a dedicated transport able to keep itself from blowing up while getting its cargo downfield.

I mathed out the serpent when I updated the V.D.R. and the shield in their eyes was only worth 15 points. When they do the pricing for twin linked weapons, they price bs4 the same as bs3, so there is a slight cost savings there. At any rate, the way the 7th ed codecies are WORDED, not balanced, will bring the serpent in line.


Tldr: As an all around vehicle, the serpent is costed correctly(minus the shield) and the new codex should elimi ate the most ridiculous aspects of it simply because of the way they have been wording things with 7th ed codecies.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

Oh boy, so Eldars now have to purchase actual tanks and use FOC slots to do the tank heavy role? Sounds good to me IMO.

You believe that the reason very few take Falcons or Fire Prisms is because of the wave serpent? They're also fairly terrible vehicles.

They're not terrible. I run Fire Prisms fairly regularly, and I get good mileage out of them. I run a Night Spinner fairly frequently, and THAT vehicle definitely needs something.

Falcons aren't bad persay but they need to be dedicated transports for some Aspect Warriors, or they need to have better offensive power, or cheaper, or a combination of those three things.

Eldar heavy support slots are really crowded... Falcon has to be either a real gun boat or become a dedicated transport in order to see play.
On 4th edition where it was able to fire all weapons no eldar was leaving home without 3 of them.
Removing the weapon ability of the serpent's shield will be enough to remedy the problem I think.

 adamsouza wrote:
<sarcasm>
Yeah!! They should treat Wave Serpents like they did Annihilation Barges. Nerf them and increase their point costs, so no one will want to play them. Teach those WAAC Xenos players"
</sarcasm>

That would be great, then the rest of the models would be reduced by 40% and they would get a formation bonus for taking units that are already strong.

sturguard wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
<sarcasm>
Yeah!! They should treat Wave Serpents like they did Annihilation Barges. Nerf them and increase their point costs, so no one will want to play them. Teach those WAAC Xenos players"
</sarcasm>

That would be great, then the rest of the models would be reduced by 40% and they would get a formation bonus for taking units that are already strong.

If by "rest of the army" you meant the two units that were soo overpriced in the previous codex that no one played them.

Bharring wrote:
Lots of numbers were ran a while back comparing the TriLas Pred to the Brightlance Falcon in 6th.

Pred wins - per model - on firepower.
Survivability was endlessly debated. AV13 front is huge for the Pred, but AV11 sides hurt it. Sure, Jink, but the Falcon has no TL, and low ROF, so jinking hurts it hard. Pred can stay back with all weapons being 48", but Falcon has more mobility.

Compared to a TriLas Pred, a BL Falcon is just a little worse per model, if properly kitted. But is a little more expensive. And the TriLas pred isn't generally considered all that great.

So the Falcon is an inch short of being OK. Not terrible, but not that scary.

Sure, if both were immobile, the tri-las pred wins out barely. But 7th is all about mobility now, and being able to move 12" and shoot two weapons is huge, and that's something a non-BA predator can't do. Also, it may not seem like much, but the transport capability should not be overlooked. It seems like a throw-away perk, but I've seen it be used to reposition dark reapers rather effectively.

I also think people sell jink short here. When that S10 AP1 pie plate clips your hull, you'll be thanking your stars for that save, while the poor Pred just dies. A Falcon that's snapfiring but still around turn 4 is far more effective than a Predator that is a smoking crater on turn 3.

The only thing wrong with the Falcon is its a heavy support and cuts into the Wraithknight budget, and to me, that's not a valid criticism of a unit's strength.

All good points, Classic, but there are a lot of points the other way, too.

(I'm not saying the Falcon is trash, I'm claiming its an inch short of the tri-las pred).

Three AT shots vs three AT shots sounds fair. Until we look at the details.

Lascannons are S9. So, outside AV13/14, they pen on one better per shot. 3 shots needing 3's to pen AV12 vs 3 needing 4's is actually quite a difference.

At AV13/14, one of the Falcon's shots has Lance. So, against AV14, Falcons are 1x4's + 2x6's to glance, versus 3x5's. Falcon is 5/6ths as likely to hurt AV14 as the Pred. And the difference is all in pens. Not huge, but a definite advantage to the Pred.

As AV goes down, Pred's advantage goes up, all the way to AV10 (glance on 1s vs glance on 2s).

That is assuming equal chance of hitting. But the Pred wins there, too, with a twin linked weapon.

Lascannons and the Pulse Laser are both likely to be in range at 48". Brightlnce is likely, too, at 36", but it is far less of a given.

So, Tri-Las Pred beats a Falcon against *all* targets, although against some its marginal (grots die just as easily to s9, but Pred hits more reliably).

As for survivability, AV13 front is a big deal. S6 is useless, and S7 can only glance. As those are the current golden boys of hull stripping, that's a big deal. Side AV11 sucks, so it needs to sit in the backfield.

Jinking in the open is a very useful defensive tool. But is it worth taking double damage from S7, and a higher rate of damage from stinger, and not ignoring S6? If they were both sitting back, certainly not. After all, how often do your preds not have at least 5+? Mine rarely gets caught like that.

More likely, both will hug terrain. Moving 12" makes the Pred snapshot, which is still better than the Falcon snapshotting (TL turret, bigger guns). Granted, the Falcon can do it reactively, whereas the Pred chooses to move preemptively.

I'd give that to the Falcon, sure, but not by as large a margin as you seem to believe.

Then we get to Transport. 6 models. So no Wraiths or Guardians. Or anything but min foot Aspect Warrior squads.
Reapers need to shoot. Can't from inside.
Scorpions need to Assault. Looking at T3 at the earliest if you need the falcon, and you should lose the Falcon in the process.
Banshees are like Scorpions, but worse in this case.
Spiders can't embark, even if enough of them die to fit.
Spectres can't embark
Hawks can't embark.
Avengers gets you 5-6 small-arms down field after 2 turns of moving in the Falcon. Not a lot for that kind of investment.
Fire Dragons could be useful. Get them in range to burn a tank. Probably suicide. Often probably costing the tank too. So why not take the cheaper transport, as you're unlikey to get more than one round of shooting out of it? (Yes, our cheapest transport is 115 stock. But the Falcon costs more)

The Transport is nice, sure. But it pays for it what its worth - a nice perk that's part of its definition, but not terribly game-changjng.

Throw this all together, and I still think the LasPred is probably about the same per model, making it a little better per point.

Question, does anyone else get the feeling that the Eldar codex "decurion" will have multiple core types? A Wraith guard one, a Guardian one, and an Aspect one.

 Garion wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if serpent shields disappear all together. Its just wargear that doesn't even have an actual model bit. With GW tendency to swing good for bad and bad for good I can see Wave Serpents going back to expensive transports with not much else going for them.

No model bit?? What do you think those 6 antennae on the hull are?

Is that what they are supposed to represent? LOL. I always thought they were just last minute add-ons to make the thing look just a little less like a Falcon.

Here are my assumptions for the Warhost (?) detachment.

Command-
Seer Council (1 Farseer, 1-5 Warlocks)

Core- (Must take one, can take both)
Razorwind Host-
1 Autarch, 2+ Guardians, 1+ Windrider Jetbikes, 1+ Dire Avengers

Wraith Formation-
Spiritseer, 2+ Wraithguard, 1+ Wraithlord, 1 Wraithknight, 1 Hemlock?

Auxilary-
Guardian Host-
2 Guardian Defender Squads, 1 Storm Guardian Squad, 1 Support Weapon Battery.

Windrider Host-
2 Windrider Jetbike squads, 1 Vyper.

Aspect Warriors-
1+ Aspect Warrior squads (All must be same aspect)

Armor Formation-
2x Falcons, 1x Fire Prism

Air Formation-
2+ Crimson Hunters

Rangers-
1 Rangers

Avatar-
Avatar