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Chancetragedy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

Loser has to listen to a Nickleback album, start to finish.

I think I'd pay a thousand nickels to never have to hear nickelback ever again ;p

Edit: and I'm with mortetvie on the jetbikes not being as big of a deal as you think. Im much more concerned about an entire army of STR D shooters.

I would actually be less concerned about all the D had jet bikes remained the same and were bumped to a 4+. They were criminal before at 17ppm, but Id live if they were the same.

Having a basic troop with a 48" threat range and 4 s6 shots invalidates way more then D. It sweeps elite units, horde, light to medium armor and MC's. There is a reason why people would field scatter laser war walkers, these out shoot those point for point while being more durable and faster all on an Obsec unit you'd need anyway. Most armies need a tax before they get to the cream.

Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

 mortetvie wrote:
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?

In my experience, having that many shots is not the be all end. I've played lists where I had 9 Vypers and 9 War Walkers with more Vypers/War Walkers as allies and while all of that shooting is very strong, it can only go so far. I only bring up this example to say I know what that much firepower can do or not do.

It really comes down to how much terrain is on the game, what targets are available on either side, what shooting capabilities are on either side, how good the target priority is of either player and ultimately player skill.

Indeed, there are many armies and lists that would care less about that firepower listed above, so unless you are playing mathhammer in a vacuum or only play with infantry models that are T4 in a gunline, real life experience in tournament settings tells me this type of list will not be unstoppable.

mortetvie wrote:Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

Well after a couple of rounds of shooting from this army you will be worried to face him again in the battlefield...

ImAGeek wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?

Mate even half the amount of shots for half the amount of points combined with the mobility buffs and other units the eldar will field is a major problem. This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.

 Capamaru wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?

Mate even half the amount of shots for half the amount of points combined with the mobility buffs and other units the eldar will field is a major problem. This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.

And we haven't even seen any formation bonuses they're gonna get yet either

 Capamaru wrote:
This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.

So you're contention is that Scatter Lasers need to be both worse and more expensive than they currently are?

I love this thread. It really fills up the ignore list well.

So the facts as I see them...

T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points

Wraithguard and Wraithknights with D weapons...

but...

but...

but...

We don't know the whole story.

Yes we do, we know exactly what I just posted.

GW has lost their damn minds.

if people would just start playing with more structured terrain (instead of the usual blobs) then it would be nigh impossible for that many bikes to get these shots off effectively. I've never understood why most people just make almost zero effort to make a decent terrain system.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.

So you're contention is that Scatter Lasers need to be both worse and more expensive than they currently are?

SL couldn't be taken on Jetbikes before, so it would be adding an option (better) for a reasonable amount of points at the same ratio as the current book.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Some people are saying this book will be way overpowered.

While others (not really in this thread) are saying that Eldar are gonna get nerfed.

I think that they'll probably be about the same.

What really has me worried is this whole formation thing. Is this going to be the basic way of organizing an eldar list? If so, I gotta go out and buy some stuff.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?

The problem with all the freak-out is that a lot of people forget that *practically* the unit isn't THAT much different from what it was before.

What have jetbikes gotten? The ability to add 2 more scatter lasers per 3 units at a cost of 10 points each. What have they lost? laser link. Nothing else has changed.

Before, you could field 6 jetbikes, and get 8 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 8 shots at 24 inch threat range with bladestorm. Total cost = 4x17 + 2x27 = 122 points

For 125 points, you can field 5 jetbikes, get 16 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 2 shots at 24 inch threat range with blade storm.

But realistically, do you just want 1 unit to be able to take a hit without losing 27 points? I don't think so. I think at most, the ratio will be 2 scatter lasers to 1 shuriken catapult.

Is it a buff? YES, because you get more options. But it's hardly game-breaking.

Likewise, the whole D-weapon thing.

Wraithguard had Distortion weapons before, and they were already super killy. On rolls of 6, you got instant death on creatures and penetrating hit on vehicles. Is Destroyer better? Yes, but dead is dead, and Wraithguard were just fine at leaving in their threat range dead. So, if the price (points) goes up, it's not a buff at all. Same with Wraithknight: I would rather have Destroyer as an option, than the base price of WK rising. One of the great things with Wraithknight was that it was 240 points base, allowing you to have more army flexibility. If it gets raised to the 400 level (which I suspect will happen), in 1850 games, you'll be unlikely to see more than 1-2.

valace2 wrote:
So the facts as I see them...

T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points

Wraithguard and Wraithknights with D weapons...

but...

but...

but...

We don't know the whole story.

Yes we do, we know exactly what I just posted.

GW has lost their damn minds.

I only started 40k last year and I'm already sick of it. That can't be good for any business hoping to grow.

Nerf Nuke needed. Eldar need harsh restrictions.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 Q0rbin wrote:
Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.

So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."

Wow... So hardcore! I bet you have a rage boner the whole time you play man dollies until your opponent quits! takes tons of effort and skill finding the best of the best when the decks loaded doesn't it?

It's like bragging that you raced a marathon distance faster then you opponents except they ran and you drove your car. Sounds EXCITING!

Actually, I live in a magical place where my opponents know how to build a decent list. We all play this INHERENTLY COMPETITIVE game with the intention of (gasp!) WINNING. I don't remove 1 spark plug when I take my car to the track just because it might be faster than my opponent's cars. I don't shoot IDPA with both eyes closed just because I might have more training or a more accurate weapon than the guy standing next to me. Why would I handicap my list? I think a lot of people must be confusing this game with D&D. There is a 300 page rulebook with the sole purpose of telling you how to determine who wins the game. I missed the memo where it became a crime to build lists with that in mind. Forge the narrative is a poor excuse for writing unbalanced and unclear rules. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to buy that hook, line and sinker and make yourself feel better by belittling anyone who has the nerve to actually try to win a game instead of just shoving your man dollies around the table while making "pew pew" noises, that's on you.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.

So you're contention is that Scatter Lasers need to be both worse and more expensive than they currently are?

I love this thread. It really fills up the ignore list well.

Why worse? I said make it available to 1 every 3 bikes and make it cost 15 points since the shuricen cannon costs 10... Why this is bad?

 Turalon wrote:
While others (not really in this thread) are saying that Eldar are gonna get nerfed.

I think that they'll probably be about the same.

What really has me worried is this whole formation thing. Is this going to be the basic way of organizing an eldar list? If so, I gotta go out and buy some stuff.

I think the Eldar will get the Necron treatment: some things will get nerfed some; other things will more than compensate in buffs. Most games favor elvish type stuff and the orcs get the short end of the stick. It will probably encourage people to play a different way and buy more models that they didn't have before.

To my earlier point though, it's not like Eldar Jetbikes weren't totally awesome before And also -- Dark Eldar and Harlequin jetbikes are also really quite good. I do not understand the justification for making it so that every unit can be upgraded to a special weapon, because that's not a common thing for low-price troops.

 Talys wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!

Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.

You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?

The problem with all the freak-out is that a lot of people forget that *practically* the unit isn't THAT much different from what it was before.

What have jetbikes gotten? The ability to add 2 more scatter lasers per 3 units at a cost of 10 points each. What have they lost? laser link. Nothing else has changed.

Before, you could field 6 jetbikes, and get 8 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 8 shots at 24 inch threat range with bladestorm. Total cost = 4x17 + 2x27 = 122 points

For 125 points, you can field 5 jetbikes, get 16 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 2 shots at 24 inch threat range with blade storm.

But realistically, do you just want 1 unit to be able to take a hit without losing 27 points? I don't think so. I think at most, the ratio will be 2 scatter lasers to 1 shuriken catapult.

Is it a buff? YES, because you get more options. But it's hardly game-breaking.

Likewise, the whole D-weapon thing.

Wraithguard had Distortion weapons before, and they were already super killy. On rolls of 6, you got instant death on creatures and penetrating hit on vehicles. Is Destroyer better? Yes, but dead is dead, and Wraithguard were just fine at leaving in their threat range dead. So, if the price (points) goes up, it's not a buff at all. Same with Wraithknight: I would rather have Destroyer as an option, than the base price of WK rising. One of the great things with Wraithknight was that it was 240 points base, allowing you to have more army flexibility. If it gets raised to the 400 level (which I suspect will happen), in 1850 games, you'll be unlikely to see more than 1-2.

Well exactly, they didn't even need a buff. That's why it's so ridiculous, that's part of the 'freak out' as you put it. They were pretty damn good as it was, so even the 'slight' buffs they've got has just made them ridiculous.

 Turalon wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Some people are saying this book will be way overpowered.

While others (not really in this thread) are saying that Eldar are gonna get nerfed.

I think that they'll probably be about the same.

What really has me worried is this whole formation thing. Is this going to be the basic way of organizing an eldar list? If so, I gotta go out and buy some stuff.

You will always be able to use a CAD, just like currently. Their special detachment is just an OPTIONAL way to field a Battle-Forged list that also gives to bonuses.

I am personally very much in favor of this kind of organization as it forces you to add "fluffy", but clearly tax, units in order to get the bonuses.

Gamgee wrote:

I only started 40k last year and I'm already sick of it. That can't be good for any business hoping to grow.

Nerf Nuke needed. Eldar need harsh restrictions.

Ya know? Based on this and some other posts I have seen from you on other forums, you probably should just quit 40k. This obviously isn't the game for you.

Edit: Also I haven't really been excited for FF15 so far and haven't watched many videos of it, but holy crap that was awesome! Also, that is basically what Eldar D weapons are supposed to do

valace2 wrote:
So the facts as I see them...

T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points

Those are pretty bad facts. They do NOT auto wound on 6. The are AP 6 not AP 2.

You're turning the scatter laser into a scatter shuriken laser cannon.

You also have no idea how much Wraithguard and Wraithknights are going to cost, with their shiny new upgraded weapons. And, how many of your units were hit with the old Wraithguard, and walked away to talk about it?

What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the whole game away.

 Swabby wrote:
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.

How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?

 Swabby wrote:
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.

160. Plus the Eldar player has enough points left for probably a unit or two of Fire Dragons in WS to take out your land raider.

 Swabby wrote:
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.

They have a 4+ save and cost almost 2x as many points per model. There is really no comparison.

 Swabby wrote:
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.

The main idea behind this is that 160 str 6 shots are amazing against infantry of any sort while the eldar are more than famous about their variety of anti tank options. So you might very well guess where the rest of the points will be spend and how long the land raider will live to tell the tale.

 Swabby wrote:
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.

The issue is that getting those 160 str 6 shots only costs 1080pts, leaving plenty of points for a WraithKnight and Wraithguard to ERASE those AV13+ vehicles.

Even so, I would be VERY surprised to see someone actual field THAT many jetbikes

EDIT: Dang that post stirred up a bunch of responses!
-
-

 pretre wrote:
How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?

Entirely different conversation than the one that people are freaking out about. There is precedent for eldar bikes all having heavy weapons. The harly bikes come with quite a few frills for the extra points and are multiple wound models.

 Galef wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.

People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.

Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.

The issue is that getting those 160 str 6 shots only costs 1080pts, leaving plenty of points for a WraithKnight and Wraithguard to ERASE those AV13+ vehicles.

Even so, I would be VERY surprised to see someone actual field THAT many jetbikes

Well they would cost a hefty amount of money but you can very well use old models and people have large amounts of them since they are around like forever... I suspect the price of scatter laser bits on ebay will go sky high after the codex release

 Talys wrote:

valace2 wrote:
So the facts as I see them...

T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points

Those are pretty bad facts. They do NOT auto wound on 6. The are AP 6 not AP 2.

You're turning the scatter laser into a scatter shuriken laser cannon.

You also have no idea how much Wraithguard and Wraithknights are going to cost, with their shiny new upgraded weapons. And, how many of your units were hit with the old Wraithguard, and walked away to talk about it?

Thank you! I was going to post the same thing, buy decided to see if someone else would call them on it. In a honesty, the only thing overpowered about the jetbikes is the 3+ save. They will continue being 4+ in my games. Wish GW would just hire some mathematicians all ready. Most RPG companies have in the past couple years, and the games have become significantly better balanced as a result.

 Toofast wrote:
Actually, I live in a magical place where my opponents know how to build a decent list. We all play this INHERENTLY COMPETITIVE game with the intention of (gasp!) WINNING. I don't remove 1 spark plug when I take my car to the track just because it might be faster than my opponent's cars. I don't shoot IDPA with both eyes closed just because I might have more training or a more accurate weapon than the guy standing next to me. Why would I handicap my list? I think a lot of people must be confusing this game with D&D. There is a 300 page rulebook with the sole purpose of telling you how to determine who wins the game. I missed the memo where it became a crime to build lists with that in mind. Forge the narrative is a poor excuse for writing unbalanced and unclear rules. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to buy that hook, line and sinker and make yourself feel better by belittling anyone who has the nerve to actually try to win a game instead of just shoving your man dollies around the table while making "pew pew" noises, that's on you.

I'd just like to add that generally, I have fun at tournaments.

When the game is grievously unbalanced, that's where the stigma gets attached to "trying too hard" to win. It's only because the rules are busted and allow for hideously funless and one-sided games, that social pressure has to be used, to try and get the sort of games that balanced rules should be producing.