Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So his battle report just confirms everything we already knew. A bit sceptical about his statements on D-Scythes though, since Fire Dragons are much cheaper. D-Scythes were already overkill on most things, admittedly they sucked against vehicles whereas now they instantly wreck them.

Heh already had four friends dump their armies and are buying Eldar. At our local store almost 75% of the players are buying/playing eldar now. I guess I will retire my armies and buy Eldar too. Well played GW. All other armies are no longer viable.

 Talys wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
How can people defend that 295 point WK pricetag......

The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.

55 point increase for:

-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.

Absolutely disgusting imo.

Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.

I'm of a mixed mind, actually. First, 295 points. Yes, OMG awesome cheap.

However, it's a Gargantuan and LoW. That means that at virtually every tournament, you'll only be allowed one. In the ITC format, previously, you got a bonus for not using a Superheavy/Gargantuan LoW, that is lost. Also Ranged D is not permitted in most tournaments. Technically, you won't even be able to use it in ITC until they add it to the permitted Gargantuan LoW list (previously, you could have as many as you wanted).

I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.

In casual play, most of your friends will not like you very much if you have 6 Wraith Knights. You know, kind of like if you play 6 Riptides. So... from a casual play perspective, I don't see many players running out and buying a half dozen WK boxes.

But yes, 295 points is way too cheap. 395, with +100 points for Ranged D would have been a lot better, IMO.

The problem as can be seen in your first paragraph, is that many of these downsides come from homebrew rules people have made to allow 40k to function in a relatively balanced manner in competitive play.

It would have been nice for the devs to attempt to balance the game for once.

Javin wrote:
Heh already had four friends dump their armies and are buying Eldar. At our local store almost 75% of the players are buying/playing eldar now. I guess I will retire my armies and buy Eldar too. Well played GW. All other armies are no longer viable.

You in South Korea Javin?

 mortetvie wrote:
The amount of vitrol and personal attacks in this thread are sad. Experienced tournament players being lambasted for maintaining, based in their experience, the position that the sky is not falling and the new Eldar codex is not as bad as people are making it seem... There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.

So many pages of people going "undercosted and op stuff no fair" (loose paraphrase) with personal attacks against anyone that disagrees. I personally look forward to some of the changes, Reapers and Crimson Hunter specifically. Will be very interested to see how ITC handles the new dex as well-having played Iyanden since 2nd.

Funny, I've seen as much vitriol and personal attacks the other way too. People not listening to a single bad word said agains GW. You're right, there is no reasoning with the unreasonable.

And everyone saying 'take the whining to other threads' people are discussing the rumours. Pretty sure that's allowed in a rumour thread.

Caution - contains opinions.

They way i look at it, theres a definite plan in place for GW.

They released the wraithknight model and i believe that this was the first step in intergrating FW products into the main lineup (my personal opinion, is that it was originally intended to be a GC, but they opted for a MC at the time as no other races would have access to D weapons, or GC/SH models).

They followed this a couple months later with escalation, releasing a selection of super heavy kits to all races and shortly after this, imperial knights became the 3rd plastic kit (first since escalation) to be released - to the largest % of there playerbase. Cycle through a bit and we get to the new necron dex. lots of modifiers to WBB rolls based on D weapons, seemed a little odd but clearly with hindsight prepped them for the introduction of ranged D as a more common occurrence within 40k.

Harlequins gained access to a neuro disruptor which now looks like the greatest thing since sliced bread but at the time was an overcosted plasma pistol in most scenarios.

The skitarri dex brings an awful lot of toughness reducing and haywire shenanigans to the fore

I believe that newer dexes will have some forgeworld units built in or new ranged D weapons available and i think we might finally see a plastic thunderhawk thats been much rumoured in the marine dex to introduce super heavy flyers to us.

Either way, no matter what you believe, were all going to have this codex, it won't change and it does go back to how eldar are supposed to play after a pretty bland version last time that left half the units unusable. hopefully the next dexes released follow suit.

Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)

how would psychic scream do? or lance?

 kloma wrote:
how would psychic scream do? or lance?

Psychic scream ( if you manage to cast it) averages at 6-8 on 2 D6. So youll be doing nothing on average and a wound if youre lucky. ( FNP has 1/3 chance to ignore. )

Lance has 2/3 chace to hit and 5/6 chance to wound -Again with a 1-3 chance to ignore.

Nids have no way of tarpitting knights thanks to stomp and immune to poison. The only thing that can punch through a knight is a heirodule but most comps in uk limit low to 495 pts. ( maybe this will change now?)

Either way, Its a bitter feeling over here for sure!

 Iechine wrote:
Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)

We also cannot do anything combatwise.

People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).

I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.

The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?

And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!

Well played GW. Wel played.

Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.

Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Someone else posted this but I thought it shows how crazy the pricing is on the wriathknight.

Chapter Master on Bike with Shield Eternal... 250 points.
Wraithknight - T8 6W Gargantuan creature with D strength ranged and melee weapons ... 295 points
Belakor ... 350 points
Kitted out Daemon Prince - S6, T5 (Wings, armour, 2 greater gifts, mark, ML3 psyker) ... 355 points
Imperial Knight titan ... 375 points
Barbed Heirodule - T8 6W Gargantuan Creature with Heavy 10 S10 shooting, and S10 melee ... 585 points

295pts (WTF o.0)

The pricing on the Wraithknight is the one thing that well and truly threw me about this codex.

Seriously. Looking at the past 2 years, the Taudar shenanigans, the serpent spam and wraith spam shenanigans...

Who the hell said....Hmm. Eldar Need Buffs.

Seriously. WHO?

Anyone who brought up Banshees.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)

We also cannot do anything combatwise.

People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).

I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.

The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?

And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!

Well played GW. Wel played.

Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.

Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.

No apparently non Eldar players just need to

"Stop whining and Learn to Play"

There are no rules problems only people playing with the wrong army.................there are apparently no cheese or OP units - just totally skillful players who just happen to use the same units - repeateldy and in quantiry - but thats cos they are "skilled" - its nothing to do with the actual units.

pm713 wrote:
Anyone who brought up Banshees.

Who also got some of the most ridiculous buffs I've seen.

Oh hey. We're gonna...uh...

Make you immune to Overwatch.
Have you ignore cover.
Give the enemy -2 Ld.
Cause Fear.
Still have fleet, power swords and some of the silliest base stats in terms of WS and I.

And still cost less than a Genestealer.

YEAAAAAAH.

 Talys wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
How can people defend that 295 point WK pricetag......

The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.

55 point increase for:

-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.

Absolutely disgusting imo.

Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.

I'm of a mixed mind, actually. First, 295 points. Yes, OMG awesome cheap.

However, it's a Gargantuan and LoW. That means that at virtually every tournament, you'll only be allowed one. In the ITC format, previously, you got a bonus for not using a Superheavy/Gargantuan LoW, that is lost. Also Ranged D is not permitted in most tournaments. Technically, you won't even be able to use it in ITC until they add it to the permitted Gargantuan LoW list (previously, you could have as many as you wanted).

I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.

In casual play, most of your friends will not like you very much if you have 6 Wraith Knights. You know, kind of like if you play 6 Riptides. So... from a casual play perspective, I don't see many players running out and buying a half dozen WK boxes.

But yes, 295 points is way too cheap. 395, with +100 points for Ranged D would have been a lot better, IMO.

All three shouldve been priced differently imo. 295 is a bit cheap for the Suncannon Knight, but overall isnt that bad. The Glaive Knight should sit around 370-375, Wraithcannon Knight should be 400 (if its TL) or 450 if its two seperate cannons. Ranged D is available in 7" Blast Form at the 400 point range. I'll likely play the them at those higher respective values since that seems like an appropriate houseruling.

Likewise with the bikes I'll keep them 1 in 3 since thats how the Dark Eldar Reavers roll.

I play heavy aspect with Swooping Hawks/Shining Spears being a regular component of my lists so people tend to not complain.

I really wished that they updated the Aspect Warriors models though, they really are the the units which define the eldar. Hopefully they get the "Shield of Baal" treatment down the line.

 Talys wrote:

I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.

Really? Restrictive?

The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.

Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.

It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.

im sure youll get plenty more soon enough

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)

We also cannot do anything combatwise.

People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).

I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.

The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?

And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!

Well played GW. Wel played.


I have jokingly said in the past they need a buff lol

I guess I should be careful what I wish for

Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.

Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Someone else posted this but I thought it shows how crazy the pricing is on the wriathknight.

Chapter Master on Bike with Shield Eternal... 250 points.
Wraithknight - T8 6W Gargantuan creature with D strength ranged and melee weapons ... 295 points
Belakor ... 350 points
Kitted out Daemon Prince - S6, T5 (Wings, armour, 2 greater gifts, mark, ML3 psyker) ... 355 points
Imperial Knight titan ... 375 points
Barbed Heirodule - T8 6W Gargantuan Creature with Heavy 10 S10 shooting, and S10 melee ... 585 points

295pts (WTF o.0)

The pricing on the Wraithknight is the one thing that well and truly threw me about this codex.

Seriously. Looking at the past 2 years, the Taudar shenanigans, the serpent spam and wraith spam shenanigans...

Who the hell said....Hmm. Eldar Need Buffs.

Seriously. WHO?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
whoops I was trying to say, I jokingly wished for the buffs in the past lol

I guess I should careful what I wish for

is it confirmed that a WK can have both STR D melee and ranged weapons on the same model? through it was one or the other.

It is one or the other, but the weapon swaps are free according to someone who has the book.

Honestly overall for the tournament scene it feels like a slight downgrade on power. Granted, given how solid eldar were before that means it's still a very strong book, just feels slightly less powerful than codex wave serpent.

The WK will either be "modified" or straight up banned based on Range D or being a GC.

As for the rest bikes are infinitely easier to kill than wave serpents. The removal of malefic is huge for how eldar currently work. Unlike current elder there will be a finite number of models now.

Most armies are going to be much, much better against eldar now. Will some builds be worse? Sure, happens with every codex. But some will be better too.

I'll wait to see how the whole thing fits together before making a decision on it's overall power level.

 kloma wrote:
is it confirmed that a WK can have both STR D melee and ranged weapons on the same model? through it was one or the other.

I'm guessing it's smash attack for being a gargantuan creature is strD? Not sure.

You can't have it on all attacks though, you either have the sword or the guns, but either is a free upgrade.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kloma wrote:
is it confirmed that a WK can have both STR D melee and ranged weapons on the same model? through it was one or the other.

I think only the sword Is Strength D in CC, and that comes with the shield.

the other loadouts are the same as before but the Death sticks are now Destroyer sticks

if no CC weapon hitting, it will be at strength 10 I believe same as before

it seems to me that it will force people away from deathstars a little. it essentially gained i proved defence vs poison (probably needed) and stop, probably not needed.

the weapons arent blasts, so its 2 dead things a turn tops and those are only on 6's. Rending will become more useful again, genestealer resurgence?

 kloma wrote:
it seems to me that it will force people away from deathstars a little. it essentially gained i proved defence vs poison (probably needed) and stop, probably not needed.

the weapons arent blasts, so its 2 dead things a turn tops and those are only on 6's. Rending will become more useful again, genestealer resurgence?

Against Shuriken weapons and Scatter lasers?

Even if a Serpent shield is 1 use it's now 2D6 shots (average of 7) that ignore cover. This too will delete genestealers wholesale.

Genestealer resurgence? No, no no no. I'm not paying more points than a Marine for something with a 6+ save against an army packing multiple S5 and S6 shots.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Honestly overall for the tournament scene it feels like a slight downgrade on power. Granted, given how solid eldar were before that means it's still a very strong book, just feels slightly less powerful than codex wave serpent.

The WK will either be "modified" or straight up banned based on Range D or being a GC.

As for the rest bikes are infinitely easier to kill than wave serpents. The removal of malefic is huge for how eldar currently work. Unlike current elder there will be a finite number of models now.

Most armies are going to be much, much better against eldar now. Will some builds be worse? Sure, happens with every codex. But some will be better too.

I'll wait to see how the whole thing fits together before making a decision on it's overall power level.

So in a more powerful codex the Wave Serpent never got modified or straight up banned or restricted, but in a weaker codex you expect the WK to be modified or straight banned? In a game that already has Knights? I doubt it. It's better than a Knight, but it's still a Knight. It's also just one Knight, not 6 Knights in one army. If what you said was true the Eldar need a WK to be competitive. Also, a ban on ranged D would also mean a ban on Wraithguard, Support Platforms, Hemlock Wraithfighters, etc. If anything all of that stuff is better than the ranged D on the Wraithknight, but I can't see it happening.

The melee version won't be touched, although it will often have a cap of one per army. That said, the melee one is actually superior to the ranged one, so why would the ranged one be touched then? People have issues with Pulsars because they can wipe units, but what exactly is so outrageous in single shot D strength non template/blast weapons? 40K players have a very thick skin and will swallow this one and let it play.

As far as someone bringing up Hive Tyrants not being able to kill the Wraithknight goes -- Nobody is able to properly kill four Hive Tyrants. In fact the new Eldar won't be able to either. Flying monstrous creatures like HTs should've been modified or straight banned or restricted, especially as allies, but it hasn't happened, so...

 Therion wrote:

As far as someone bringing up Hive Tyrants not being able to kill the Wraithknight goes -- Nobody is able to properly kill four Hive Tyrants. In fact the new Eldar won't be able to either. Flying monstrous creatures like HTs should've been modified or straight banned or restricted, especially as allies, but it hasn't happened, so...

Well the one positive thing about this new codex.

Might see more Crimson Hunters due to that formation and the lower cost. Might actually see HT actually have to *gasp* jink.

 Therion wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Honestly overall for the tournament scene it feels like a slight downgrade on power. Granted, given how solid eldar were before that means it's still a very strong book, just feels slightly less powerful than codex wave serpent.

The WK will either be "modified" or straight up banned based on Range D or being a GC.

As for the rest bikes are infinitely easier to kill than wave serpents. The removal of malefic is huge for how eldar currently work. Unlike current elder there will be a finite number of models now.

Most armies are going to be much, much better against eldar now. Will some builds be worse? Sure, happens with every codex. But some will be better too.

I'll wait to see how the whole thing fits together before making a decision on it's overall power level.

So in a more powerful codex the Wave Serpent never got modified or straight up banned or restricted, but in a weaker codex you expect the WK to be modified or straight banned? In a game that already has Knights? I doubt it. It's better than a Knight, but it's still a Knight. It's also just one Knight, not 6 Knights in one army. If what you said was true the Eldar need a WK to be competitive. Also, a ban on ranged D would also mean a ban on Wraithguard, Support Platforms, Hemlock Wraithfighters, etc. If anything all of that stuff is better than the ranged D on the Wraithknight, but I can't see it happening.

The melee version won't be touched, although it will often have a cap of one per army. That said, the melee one is actually superior to the ranged one, so why would the ranged one be touched then? People have issues with Pulsars because they can wipe units, but what exactly is so outrageous in single shot D strength non template/blast weapons? 40K players have a very thick skin and will swallow this one and let it play.

As far as someone bringing up Hive Tyrants not being able to kill the Wraithknight goes -- Nobody is able to properly kill four Hive Tyrants. In fact the new Eldar won't be able to either. Flying monstrous creatures like HTs should've been modified or straight banned or restricted, especially as allies, but it hasn't happened, so...

I probably wasn't clear and so you are arguing with something that I didn't say Since tournaments are a regional/national thing obviously there are going to be differences. My view was from the standpoint of the US tourney circuit and the ETC. The US tournament scene, with rare exception, has banned GC/LoW's or ranged D. Both take the WK out of OUR tournament circuit. Your events may be different and probably are. I was speaking strictly from our tournament scene.

I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.

Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.

 Verviedi wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Can someone who has them consolidated repost a collection of the rumors? It's a bit of slog picking through pages of whining to find the actual news.

Would be nice if the OP followed up...

Working on it. The thread exploded a little.

Edit: Updated.

Thank you! Didn't mean to sound ungrateful.

gungo wrote:
I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.

Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.

Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.