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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)

We also cannot do anything combatwise.

People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).

I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.

The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?

And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!

Well played GW. Wel played.

Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.

Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.

Nidzilla type casual lists will suffer heavily against the D-weapons but at the moment non-flying/burrowing Tyranid MC are already barely viable. In turn the Flyrants and Mawlocks benefit from shift in Eldar shooting from Wave Serpents to bikes.

Until you put BS5 Skyfiring Dark Reapers that Reroll to hit vs fliers and ignore cover.

The unit can kill a Flyrant a turn.

mercury14 wrote:

gungo wrote:
I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.

Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.

Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.

Yup it's better to adapt now and allow it, because the trend of strength D creeping into the books is likely to continue.

When you go too far and start banning multiple units or options from one fully legal main codex you've come to the point that you can't just stop there. Then you have to revise the whole game and every book. Maybe that's preferable, and I'd play tourneyhammer with community decided points costs and stuff, but unless it's a completely new and better version of the game I'll rather play with no restrictions at all. Moving the goal posts from one 'cheesy' army to another isn't productive in any way.

2 Crimson Hunters 280

3 Squads of Dark Reapers 450

Wraithknight

Eldar Jet Bike Host

Autarch

Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.

You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.

Hollismason wrote:
2 Crimson Hunters 280

3 Squads of Dark Reapers 450

Wraithknight

Eldar Jet Bike Host

Autarch

Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.

You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.

Dark Reapers have skyfire? My apologies but could you re-post or atleast link the information we have on the Crimson Hunters (and their formation) and the Dark Reapers.

It's their special ability, they reroll to hit against Flyers, Turboboosters and anything that flat outs.

The Eldar Aspect allows you to take BS5 Dark Reapers.

Dark Reapers have Access to Flakk missiles they're 5 points less this iteration.


http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/craftworld-eldar-formations.html

1 Farseer On Jetbike
2 Warlocks
3 x 3 Jetbikes w/ Shurikans
1 Vyper

3 Crimson Hunters ( you can't apparently take 2, my bad)

Wraith Knight

Autarch from the War thingy that allows Phoenix lords

Aspect Warriors
Dark Reapers

GOOD LUCK

Hollismason wrote:
2 Crimson Hunters 280

3 Squads of Dark Reapers 450

Wraithknight

Eldar Jet Bike Host

Autarch

Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.

You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.

Unless you're up against an eldar bike army. Enough s6 will take him down.

What 3/216 per SL shot of putting down a wound?

Well good luck with that. Here's every Eldar Players tactic from here on out:

Eldar Wraithknight starts game on board

Autarch allows modifying of Reserve Rolls

Everything comes on board on turn 2

end of game.

That's with the Warhost.

I'm really hoping the Aspect Warrior thing does not allow Dark Reapers or Firedragons.

Hollismason wrote:
Well good luck with that. Here's every Eldar Players tactic from here on out:

Eldar Wraithguard starts game on board

Autarch allows modifying of Reserve Rolls

Everything comes on board on turn 2

end of game.

That's with the Warhost.

I'm really hoping the Aspect Warrior thing does not allow Dark Reapers or Firedragons.

Nonsense.

Do this and your Wraithguard will be dead turn one before they even sniff getting in threat range. Wraithknight maybe?

I still don't see this as wise. A whole 1-2 turns of concentrated fire *will* kill a WK.

LOL if you think you got enough fire power to kill something that has a invulnerable, 5+ FNP. 6 Wounds in 1 turn.

Cause the 2nd turn that thing is in CC. It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it will be in CC turn 2.

The same turn pretty much all those Jetbikes w/ ST6 and everything else comes on board.


Okay good luck with that.


This is all going to just be Eldar on Eldar in the competitive scene for the next forever. Cause Eldar can take it out.

Dark Reapers don't re-roll hits vs flying monstrous creatures, which are the actual issue, not flyers. Daemons and Hive Tyrants.

Really they don't?

Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3

Oh wait they do.

Hollismason wrote:
LOL if you think you got enough fire power to kill something that has a invulnerable, 5+ FNP. 6 Wounds in 1 turn.

Cause the 2nd turn that thing is in CC. It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it will be in CC turn 2.

The same turn pretty much all those Jetbikes w/ ST6 and everything else comes on board.


Okay good luck with that.


This is all going to just be Eldar on Eldar in the competitive scene for the next forever. Cause Eldar can take it out.

Grav centurions 25 shots with prescience is 22 hits, is 19.14 wounds, invuln saves 4(high estimate), FNP's 4(high estimate) = dead wraithknight.

Just saying there is stuff that can do that without breaking a sweat.

My initial reaction was that the book is going to be too good, but after a month or two, players will settle in.

-The WK is too good, but as others have mentioned, most events allow only one LOW.

-The bikes put out absurd firepower, but they are still MEQ that can jink. A contemporary competitive build already has to be able to take out bike MEQ equivalents (Scars, Tomb Blades), MEQ (mass drop Marines), and T5 MEQ with 3++ (Wraiths, TWC).

-Mass ranged D seems bad for the game, but it just forces a shift. Strength D scares big bad units and deathstars, which are currently some of the 40k easy mode crutches anyway (Plaguestar, Ad Lances, Flyrants). Go MSU and laugh at the overkill.

My advice, go MSU (if you haven't already). It is more fun, takes more skill, and will throw a wrench into some of these Eldar builds. Build with newdar in mind. Finally, be the change. That sounds silly in 40k, but if you don't like Jetbikes/WK/Ranged D, don't use it. Making something strange work in a competitive setting was way more impressive than cookie-cutter nonsense. It keeps the game fresh--especially in an edition with a ton of untapped variety.

Hollismason wrote:
Really they don't?

Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3

Oh wait they do.

They do? Are Hive Tyrants flyers? No. Do they turboboost? No. Do they move flat out? No.

Even if the Dark Reapers did re-roll hits vs them, the flak missile with its AP4 doesn't cause enough damage since the target has SV3. 5 guys with reaper launchers on the other hand with re-roll to hits would still just hit 3 times and wound once. The target could jink if it wanted for a save. What's the hype here? These guys suck just like always.

Flyrants are in fact Flyers.

Hollismason wrote:
Until you put BS5 Skyfiring Dark Reapers that Reroll to hit vs fliers and ignore cover.

The unit can kill a Flyrant a turn.

Dark Reapers are not safe with Mawlocks around. Eldar anti-air is more vulnerable to Nids now.

Not sure MSU would work, Consider the player could have 6 x 5man units of bikes. thats 30 scatterlasers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Antario wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Until you put BS5 Skyfiring Dark Reapers that Reroll to hit vs fliers and ignore cover.

The unit can kill a Flyrant a turn.

Dark Reapers are not safe with Mawlocks around. Eldar anti-air is more vulnerable to Nids now.

The reapers can camp inside of DE raiders.

Hollismason wrote:
LOL if you think you got enough fire power to kill something that has a invulnerable, 5+ FNP. 6 Wounds in 1 turn.

Cause the 2nd turn that thing is in CC. It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it will be in CC turn 2.

The same turn pretty much all those Jetbikes w/ ST6 and everything else comes on board.


Okay good luck with that.


This is all going to just be Eldar on Eldar in the competitive scene for the next forever. Cause Eldar can take it out.

If it has invuln then it's not shooting ranged D.

Even then it's going to be badly hurt or killed if it has to eat 1-2 turns of concentrated fire. Gauss? Dark lances? Lascannons? Grav guns? Even Krak missiles will hurt it. And it will be hurt by MCs in CC.

 JGrand wrote:
My initial reaction was that the book is going to be too good, but after a month or two, players will settle in.

-The WK is too good, but as others have mentioned, most events allow only one LOW.

-The bikes put out absurd firepower, but they are still MEQ that can jink. A contemporary competitive build already has to be able to take out bike MEQ equivalents (Scars, Tomb Blades), MEQ (mass drop Marines), and T5 MEQ with 3++ (Wraiths, TWC).

-Mass ranged D seems bad for the game, but it just forces a shift. Strength D scares big bad units and deathstars, which are currently some of the 40k easy mode crutches anyway (Plaguestar, Ad Lances, Flyrants). Go MSU and laugh at the overkill.

My advice, go MSU (if you haven't already). It is more fun, takes more skill, and will throw a wrench into some of these Eldar builds. Build with newdar in mind. Finally, be the change. That sounds silly in 40k, but if you don't like Jetbikes/WK/Ranged D, don't use it. Making something strange work in a competitive setting was way more impressive than cookie-cutter nonsense. It keeps the game fresh--especially in an edition with a ton of untapped variety.

1) We'll see about how they're ruled, pretty much every event has different rules for them ATM.

2) Most armies cannot deal with that much shooting. I don't think I've ever seen a list which can handle upwards of 120 S6 shots per turn and still have a meaningful turn afterwards. No other army has had close to that volume before, and we all know how incredible flyrants are with their 24 shots each. These jetbikes shoot more and are almost as durable. It's just insane.

3) What shift? How do you deal with Wraithguard easily for example? You can't shoot them particularly easily, as most small guns wound on a 6, and you absolutely can't assault them. What unit can tank auto-hitting 3+ poison AP2 flamers (which also do d3 wounds)? What vehicle survives after 1 HP damage per shot, plus AP2 rolls on the vehicle damage chart minimum? The only option is to stay away and try and outshoot them. If you try that then you are a) yielding board control (aka you lose) or b) going to lose the shoot out due to the above. MSU doesn't help when the Eldar player can just do the same exact thing.


I'm calling it right now - this is 40k's version of the Chaos Daemon disaster that all but killed fantasy. Maybe it won't kill 40k as much as there will be certain comp in place immediately, but this book is leagues above what anything else can do. With insufficient bans, all top armies at events are going to be Eldar. With too many bans, a large chunk of the player base will be unable to run their army (which is a popular one already).

One week left until we can be sure. I give it a month before people start seriously calling for total Eldar bans. Happened in Fantasy, will happen here too. You can quote me on that.

Hollismason wrote:
Flyrants are in fact Flyers.

Did I miss some FAQ? If I did I'll apologise in advance. That said: They're an entirely separate category called Flying Monstrous Creature. The rulebook makes countless references to Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures separately. Even abilities that affect both always list that it affects both. For example: Skyfire: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers, but it can only fire Snap Shots against other targets.

If Flying Monstrous Creatures are in fact Flyers why are they in fact called Flying Monstrous Creatures? Are Skimmers Flyers too? What about Infantry?

Calling it now. Bikes lose relentless in 8th edition.

 greggles wrote:
Calling it now. Bikes lose relentless in 8th edition.

Calling it now. Stomp will get nerfed in 8th edition.

Calling it now. Bikes will keep relentless add 4 shots to any weapon fired, change movement speed to 175 and 1/2 inches. Gain a 2+ invulnerable any time they move and will gain 20d6 hammer of wrath attacks.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

1) We'll see about how they're ruled, pretty much every event has different rules for them ATM.

Well, they have different rules because multiple LOW and mass ranged D are new issues. It is worth playtesting before making a knee-jerk decision. That being said, ITC is huge, and that has a trickle-down effect.

2) Most armies cannot deal with that much shooting. I don't think I've ever seen a list which can handle upwards of 120 S6 shots per turn and still have a meaningful turn afterwards. No other army has had close to that volume before, and we all know how incredible flyrants are with their 24 shots each. These jetbikes shoot more and are almost as durable. It's just insane.

With adequate terrain, this won't happen. I agree the firepower is unprecedented, but so were Tau/Eldar when they first dropped in 6th.

3) What shift? How do you deal with Wraithguard easily for example? You can't shoot them particularly easily, as most small guns wound on a 6, and you absolutely can't assault them. What unit can tank auto-hitting 3+ poison AP2 flamers (which also do d3 wounds)? What vehicle survives after 1 HP damage per shot, plus AP2 rolls on the vehicle damage chart minimum? The only option is to stay away and try and outshoot them. If you try that then you are a) yielding board control (aka you lose) or b) going to lose the shoot out due to the above. MSU doesn't help when the Eldar player can just do the same exact thing.

Drop Marines and mass grav will obliterate bike spam and Wraith spam. Also, we need to keep in mind just because Eldar has all of this, it doesn't mean they can take all of it in every list.

I'm calling it right now - this is 40k's version of the Chaos Daemon disaster that all but killed fantasy. Maybe it won't kill 40k as much as there will be certain comp in place immediately, but this book is leagues above what anything else can do. With insufficient bans, all top armies at events are going to be Eldar. With too many bans, a large chunk of the player base will be unable to run their army (which is a popular one already).

One week left until we can be sure. I give it a month before people start seriously calling for total Eldar bans. Happened in Fantasy, will happen here too. You can quote me on that.

I don't believe you will be correct. Make some lists using the new Eldar Dex. You can't have three WKs, 30 bikes, a mini Council, the cool/nifty aspects, and Wraithguard all in the same build. It is easy to get worried when you look at them as a whole, but there are point confines.

Grav will hurt them. Drop/reserve lists will hurt them. Anything that can tackle MEQ will hurt them. If I was a CSM player, I'd dust off those Helldrakes. There are ways to deal.

I'm not saying the book is perfectly fine, but it won't be game ending.

Wraithguard have never been particularly easy to keep alive or easy to get into threat range. Medium strength weapons of any AP, AP3, poison, etc really hurts them. They're very resistant to bolt guns yeah, but the guns that effectively kill them aren't exactly rare. The fact that wraithcannons are more potent doesn't change any of that.

niv-mizzet wrote:
<--- just got an entirely mediocre new codex right before a couple brand new PowerBooks came out.

Sad days ahead for me as far as competitive games go. :(

I guess we BA players just need to adopt new tactics!! Ooh the imbaness of our codex. I'll smack them with my formations.

Hollismason wrote:
2 Crimson Hunters 280

3 Squads of Dark Reapers 450

Wraithknight

Eldar Jet Bike Host

Autarch

Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.

You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.

I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.

Hollismason wrote:
Until you put BS5 Skyfiring Dark Reapers that Reroll to hit vs fliers and ignore cover.

The unit can kill a Flyrant a turn.

Unless they've changed Reapers, they can't get Skyfire en masse. The EXARCH has been able to, but the Reapers themselves are limited to Starswarm (S5 AP3 Heavy2) or Starshot (S8 AP3) missiles. They can't take Flak. And unless Flyrants lose their 3+ armour save, it's not like a unit of Reapers is gonna be able to swat one down a turn even with Flak missiles, since those are AP4.

A full 10-man Reaper squad with Flak will do a bit more than 2 wounds on average. Leaving out the possibility of the Exarch firing Flak for the simplicity of the math, firing Starswarm they'll do about 2 wounds, firing Starshot they'll do almost 3.

Meanwhile, a Flyrant with twin Devourers and Regeneration (about the same cost as the Reapers if they don't buy Starshot, 80 poinst cheaper if they do) will be killing about 3 Reapers every time it shoots. And since it's a FMC and not a flyer, it can fire out of its ass and be shooting them every turn, and that exchange will typically end with the Reapers dead in 3 turns.

Sure, if you get lucky and plant them on a Skyfire Nexus they'll be downing any flyer in the game like clockwork, but that's not exactly something you can plan for, nor is it much of a change from the current situation.