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 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Relapse wrote:
And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.

Was that before or after WK gained the Stomp rule?

Before, but even after if they can trade a unit of boyz, or whatever it was, for the Wraithknight isn't that an acceptable trade?

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Relapse wrote:
And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.

Was that before or after WK gained the Stomp rule?

Stomp is one of those rules that can be devastating, or just moderately inconvenient. I've seen a lot of Imperial Knights get brought down by Meganobz in round 2 because the Knight didn't roll that 6.

Thanks Ted, that calculator is awesome!

 TedNugent wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

He is referring to the 6th ed Wraithknight, which even your calculator has a single squad of lootas doing 2.22 wounds too. Three squads should then take one down by that math. Sure this doesn't affect the new 7th ed Wraithknight the same, but its certainly not unkillable. I do recognize many of my opponents tactics aren't going to work the same, but hey Typhus got in once he can do so again... Just might lose his whole terminator retinue this time rather then just three.

I think one of the problems the Eldar apologists are missing is the fact that, while WKs are not unbeatable, they are horribly, horribly undercosted, as are Wraithguard. Compare the WK to every other super heavy or GMC in the game, nothing comes close when it comes to points value.

Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.

Then there is 285 points worth of 5 Wraithguard in a WS for another horribly undercosted unit. In fact, they are probably even more dangerous because they have either 5 St D shots for bigger targets, or 5 St D-1 templates to erase those troublesome infantry squads. Just point your WS at the unit you want erased and job's done.

A WK and a couple of units of WG in WS are under 900 points and can ensure that by the end of Turn 2, all of the major threats are dealt with. Sure, you might be able to get some wounds on them, but its highly unlikely they will be significantly reduced in effectiveness and you haven't even started on the other 600-950 points worth of Eldar.

This codex has created an unpleasant situation for Eldar players. Units that most Eldar players already had were buffed significantly with no points increase (WG and bikes) or only a minor increase. Now, those Eldar players can either keep using the units they have had for a while now and be called WAAC or simply be refused games, or those players will have to buy units they didn't use so much of (Aspects) in order to get a game in. Guess that was GW's plan all along.

mercury14 wrote:

gungo wrote:
I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.

Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.

Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.

The current rule ws put in place based on overwhelming feedback on how bad range str d was to the game. The only range str d at the time this rule was put in place was a 420pt flyer now your talking about 2 more models at almost half the price. The wraith knight with range str d is just one of three varients you can choose and it is no different then the massive list of already banned loWs. None
The nerfed d scythe I said they will still allow. So really the only real model they will ban that doesn't have a non-range d option is the double range d hemlock which is also absurdly undercosted for 185 points. This is not a huge list of banned models instead it's a list of banned weapon loadouts. And I seriously doubt they Will all of a sudden allow range d just to appease a handful of elder players who want to be "that guy". The codex even without range d weapon loadouts is still phenominal.

 arinnoor wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

He is referring to the 6th ed Wraithknight, which even your calculator has a single squad of lootas doing 2.22 wounds too. Three squads should then take one down by that math. Sure this doesn't affect the new 7th ed Wraithknight the same, but its certainly not unkillable. I do recognize many of my opponents tactics aren't going to work the same, but hey Typhus got in once he can do so again... Just might lose his whole terminator retinue this time rather then just three.

Slight correction but he has two squads of lootas in the calculator for some reason (60 shots, full loota squads average 30 shots).

 arinnoor wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

He is referring to the 6th ed Wraithknight, which even your calculator has a single squad of lootas doing 2.22 wounds too. Three squads should then take one down by that math. Sure this doesn't affect the new 7th ed Wraithknight the same, but its certainly not unkillable. I do recognize many of my opponents tactics aren't going to work the same, but hey Typhus got in once he can do so again... Just might lose his whole terminator retinue this time rather then just three.

That's not a single squad of lootas. That's thirty lootas, or two squads, which is 420 points.

I'm not defending the Wraithknight's new price, even I feel it should be 330-340 points, just for the sword and shield, and you should pay to get those D-Cannons, but sadly GW doesn't agree.

The point I was trying to get across was that the new Wraithknights are better, they are harder, but plenty of armies can still kill it. charge it with 10 lychguard and they should kill it, use centurions, grey knights, etc.

Honestly I expect to never field mine again given I can't use them at NOVA which I would like to attend next year. Might take the scythe guard, but honestly I'm more excited to just run the aspects I've always wanted to and now seem to have the rules which will allow me to do so.

 Therion wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

gungo wrote:
I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.

Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.

Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.

Yup it's better to adapt now and allow it, because the trend of strength D creeping into the books is likely to continue.

When you go too far and start banning multiple units or options from one fully legal main codex you've come to the point that you can't just stop there. Then you have to revise the whole game and every book. Maybe that's preferable, and I'd play tourneyhammer with community decided points costs and stuff, but unless it's a completely new and better version of the game I'll rather play with no restrictions at all. Moving the goal posts from one 'cheesy' army to another isn't productive in any way.

There is nothing for you to base this theory on. For all we know space marines could have zero str d and everyone gets a free vortex grenade. Str d was clearly labeled as the elder thing in the white dwarf. There is nothing to base the assumption that everyone will be getting loads of str d on. The LVO was largely hailed as a masive success because of the efforts they took to balance absurd rules sets. It was considered extremely fun and had the most variety in the championship we have seen in a long time. If they took the added steps to make a massive list of banned lows (in which the wraithknight is just another low and in fact only one varient has ranged str d), they amended 2+ rerollables, and invisibility. As of this exact moment All range d weapons are already banned. Most of the options that have a range d varient have other weapon loadouts they can use. So really your not banning any units just one specific set of weapon loadouts. I don't see a reason for ITC to go back and allow all range d just to appease a few elder players especially when no other codex is balanced for it. If anything I see dscythe with its nerfed str d and limited template range as one of the only range d varients to be allowed.

Hmmm just thought of this but. The Fire Prism rumor is that for each Fire Prism firing they get +1S, -1AP. So does that mean a unit of 3 Fire Prisms would have 3 large S7 AP1 blasts.

Was it mentioned how much Fire Prisms are?

 Talys wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Talys wrote:


The game is troublesome for people who play to win

It's very hard to take you seriously when you make posts containing this.

Why don't you quote the whole sentence?

The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents.

It's very hard to take serious people who quote out of context. I said, "and", which in the English language means that all 3 criteria must be met.

OK, so? Your point is still beyond diluted. Whats wrong with playing RAW? Since your so proud to throw strict English into your argument I find it hilarious your so fast to label others as TFG if they play by the very same standard. It's also beyond ignorant of you to act as though the three aren't mutually exclusive.

So again, even quoting the whole sentence, very hard to take anything you say seriously at all.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Hmmm just thought of this but. The Fire Prism rumor is that for each Fire Prism firing they get +1S, -1AP. So does that mean a unit of 3 Fire Prisms would have 3 large S7 AP1 blasts.

Was it mentioned how much Fire Prisms are?

Unless the points have radically changed, people will be running them around 140-150 points each.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

No not really but think what you want. I will put my real world experience against a calculator any day of the week. If this game was based 100% on the odds in your mind then you might as well put up your toys.

In the past the fire prism added to each other but only caused one blast. If that is no longer the case they got pretty good too.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Talys wrote:


The game is troublesome for people who play to win

It's very hard to take you seriously when you make posts containing this.

Why don't you quote the whole sentence?

The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents.

It's very hard to take serious people who quote out of context. I said, "and", which in the English language means that all 3 criteria must be met.

OK, so? Your point is still beyond diluted. Whats wrong with playing RAW? Since your so proud to throw strict English into your argument I find it hilarious your so fast to label others as TFG if they play by the very same standard. It's also beyond ignorant of you to act as though the three aren't mutually exclusive.

So again, even quoting the whole sentence, very hard to take anything you say seriously at all.

Nonsense, clearly expecting your $135 rule set to be good RAW is for WAAC TFGs. I know I enjoy paying top dollar for the privilege of playing amateur rule designer.

Question, does anyone else have the feeling that Landraiders are going to become a super heavy vehicle? It kind of fits their fluff, and it would remove the need for the "Power of the Machine Spirit rule". I've heard many people say that it use to be able to target multiple units. It would also make it simultaneously more difficult to kill, and more dangerous. It would also probably remain in the 250 ish ppm range.

Also, I find it a bit odd that the super heavy flier section in the BRB specifically calls out the Thunderhawk. Maybe we will actually see it this time around. Just thinking about the "hidden in plain sight" type of thing GW occasionally does.

As to the S D Wraithcannon's: It really is not much different than S10 AP2 distort, or ID that they have had for years. It is just making an expensive choice that has had it's "scariness" eroded away by the Band-aid's of several editions back into a "scary" unit.

The Wraithknight has no excuse, barring the Landraider thought I had earlier up in this post coming to pass.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.

Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.

As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.

 Talys wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.

Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.

As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.

Wait, are you citing the White Dwarf as providing an example of a unit that can take on a Wraithknight? Even given how they constantly tamper with results to get their intended goal? (since their battle reports are really just sales pitches). I'm just trying to make sure I understand that.

 Talys wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.

Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.

As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.

You forgot to include Scatter Lasers. So no more than 10 models per shooting phase, with an average between 2 and 6 models per shooting phase.

Those two models could also be vehicles or monstrous creatures. Losing two marines is a whatever, sure, losing two Leman Russes or your Dark Artisan formation in a single shooting phase is kind of a big deal though.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Question, does anyone else have the feeling that Landraiders are going to become a super heavy vehicle?

I don't think so. It's much, much smaller than the Baneblade. Either way, it suffers from being a vehicle instead of a MC. If GW were to fox anything in 8e, that would be my #1 request.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.

Part of the problem is that how hard it is to kill a WK is dependent on a number of factors, like "How is it armed?", "How is the rest of the army armed?", "What's the mission objective?", and "How many turns am I allowed to take?".

From Skitarii: 30 Skitarii Vanguard can do it reliably with just their Radium Carbines, cost 270 points, and if taken as part of a War Cohort can in tn theory do it on Turn 1. Deploy at 12" on, Scout 6" forward, Move 6"; it will be difficult to hide even from their 18" range given how big a WK is. Alternately, Onager Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers (345 for the full unit, admittedly) can engage in a shooting match with a Suncannon Knight all day long with little chance of taking damage, and probably kill it in 3-4 turns.

From Harlequins: A single Harlequin Troupe with Harlequin's Caresses, costs 250 points, and can reliably take out a WK in close combat before it gets a chance to swing, assuming they got the charge off. Taken as part of a Cregorach's Revenge formation or in a Masque, they can run and charge and likely will be able to pull that off, particularly against a Sword Knight. Alternately, for 270 they can all have Neural Disruptors and try to kill it with just pistol fire.

From Necrons: The easy answer is a unit of Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion shields. 300 points, and while they'll only wound the WK on a 6, they'll ignore its armor save, and if it's not a Swordknight, its only hope for victory is a lucky Stomp. For that matter, a unit of Wraiths with Whip Coils (258) can pretty steadily grind one down in assault. It's not pretty, and it'll end real quick if the Knight gets lucky and rolls 3 Stomps at 6 on the table, but short of that, the Wraiths' odds aren't that bad. Alternately, depending on your interpretation of Gargantuan vs Hunters from Hyperspace, a couple units of Deathmarks can theoretically pull it off with a healthy dose of luck in terms of scatter. And as long as we're embracing the possibility of a bit of randomness, any C'tan, particularly the Nightbringer, can take down a Wraithknight with a bit of luck, quite quickly in some cases.

If we're going into things like Forgeworld, the R'varna stands a pretty good chance of alpha-striking a Wraithknight (certainly a Wraithcannon Knight) in a single shooting phase, and costs 295 with FnP, plus will probably do vastly more damage at range to most targets than the WK could ever hope to. Those are, however, experimental rules last I checked, so it's hard to count them.

From Marines: The aforementioned CentStar can do it with ease, but does cost more than 295 if you take a big one, and while the WK can certainly try to avoid them, given that its own range is only 36", it won't be as simple as you think if you want to do more than just hide it. Sending in a unit of Dscythe Guard to kill the Centurions is something you're welcome to attempt (it will likely fail), but the more points you pile into that scenario the more ridiculous it seems. Alternately, two units of classic Devastors with Lascannons can kill a Sword Knight or Wraithcannon Knight in 2 or 3 turns.

From Grey Knights, of course, there's just Force Weapons, Force Weapons Everywhere... Daemonhammer Terminators (215 pts) will reliably kill a WK in assault, though they may have trouble getting there depending on its configuration/mission.

From Orks: Meganobz, in a variety of configurations (I find the idea of 6 Meganobz with Killsaws amusing, 300 points), can bring down a Wraithknight in close combat, though they will invariably lose 1-2 on the way in, and again, the Stomp table will decide how the rest of the combat goes if the Nobz don't get lucky in the first round.

That having been said, the Wraithknight is definitely undercosted, and the Wraithguard only slightly less so. But they're also not invincible.

I wasn't including any other weapon options because we actually don't have the sheet for WK yet. In any case the question was could anything beat a 295 point Wraithknight... and the answer I said, was, evidently, 1 squad of DWK.

Do I think WK is undercosted at 295? ABSOLUTELY.
Do I think the OLD Wk, was undercosted at 240? HELL YES.
Do I think the move to Gargantuan LoW from Heavy is a *downgrade*? YES.

The thing is, I never really hated 40k or Eldar because the old WK was too good, or the old wave serpents were too good. So, I think it's just a case of.. shrug... the Eldar stay where they are, more than anything.

I know this is off topic (not arguing) but I can't find a release date for the codex. Does anyone know. Thanks

yellowfever wrote:
I know this is off topic (not arguing) but I can't find a release date for the codex. Does anyone know. Thanks

This weekend.

yellowfever wrote:
I know this is off topic (not arguing) but I can't find a release date for the codex. Does anyone know. Thanks

April 25th, says the webstore.

And that question is more on topic than the last 10 pages of posts.

 Talys wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.

Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.

As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.

How does stomp work again?

 warboss wrote:

How does stomp work again?

Unreliably. You're typically gonna be generating a fair number of S6 AP4 hits, but people seem to assume that you're gonna be rolling that 6 on the table (and apparently a 5-6 on the number of Stomps) all the damned time when they talk about how incredible Stomp is. Much like people seem to assume that Destroyer weapons are always gonna roll that same 6.

It's fantastic for some things, of course. That S6 AP4 is sufficient to reliably kill off Sicarians, which is about the only reason why a unit of Ruststalkers won't just gank a WK on turn 2 of the combat, since most of them won't live through the Stomps.

Against Terminators and other reasonably tough models, you'll mostly just be irritating them with Stomp.

 Raesvelg wrote:

 warboss wrote:

How does stomp work again?

Unreliably. You're typically gonna be generating a fair number of S6 AP4 hits, but people seem to assume that you're gonna be rolling that 6 on the table (and apparently a 5-6 on the number of Stomps) all the damned time when they talk about how incredible Stomp is. Much like people seem to assume that Destroyer weapons are always gonna roll that same 6.

It's fantastic for some things, of course. That S6 AP4 is sufficient to reliably kill off Sicarians, which is about the only reason why a unit of Ruststalkers won't just gank a WK on turn 2 of the combat, since most of them won't live through the Stomps.

Against Terminators and other reasonably tough models, you'll mostly just be irritating them with Stomp.

He simply said it can't be done. Clearly that isn't the case.