The Strength D Bloodthirster

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**krodarklorr**

Ignatius wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).

Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

I get that. But they really aren't that durable. Not being able to Grimoire yourself makes it almost impossible for him to get that 3++. Additionally there is a 1/3 chance that his invulnerable save will get even worse when using it.

Chaos had no reliable answer to things like Knights and Wraithknights and Riptides (okay regular 'Thirsters could do it but for the sake of the argument...) before this guy. I really like that the Bloodthirster has become an ultimate close combat unit- again like it should be. The fact that it took a S: D weapon to accomplish this is not ideal, but I'm all for the product that has resulted.

Well, I told my friend he played it wrong, but now he said he's just gonna fly around a Daemon prince all game to keep the grimoire on him. Soo, not quite sure if that helps any.

**Hollismason**

How'd you not kill it with Nightbringer.

**Ignatius**

krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).

Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

I get that. But they really aren't that durable. Not being able to Grimoire yourself makes it almost impossible for him to get that 3++. Additionally there is a 1/3 chance that his invulnerable save will get even worse when using it.

Chaos had no reliable answer to things like Knights and Wraithknights and Riptides (okay regular 'Thirsters could do it but for the sake of the argument...) before this guy. I really like that the Bloodthirster has become an ultimate close combat unit- again like it should be. The fact that it took a S: D weapon to accomplish this is not ideal, but I'm all for the product that has resulted.

Well, I told my friend he played it wrong, but now he said he's just gonna fly around a Daemon prince all game to keep the grimoire on him. Soo, not quite sure if that helps any.

Okay so what? You just have to find a way to defeat it. If a Daemon Prince flies around solely for the Grimoire that means that he is spending upwards of 500 points just to have his Bloodthirster get a 3++ some of the time. Weight of fire still kills the thing. Again it's odd that Necron are complaining about the durability of a unit. Plus, he's got a 1/3 chance to make that invulnerable a 6+. Then he dies like nothing.

**Azreal13**

krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).

Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

I get that. But they really aren't that durable. Not being able to Grimoire yourself makes it almost impossible for him to get that 3++. Additionally there is a 1/3 chance that his invulnerable save will get even worse when using it.

Chaos had no reliable answer to things like Knights and Wraithknights and Riptides (okay regular 'Thirsters could do it but for the sake of the argument...) before this guy. I really like that the Bloodthirster has become an ultimate close combat unit- again like it should be. The fact that it took a S: D weapon to accomplish this is not ideal, but I'm all for the product that has resulted.

Well, I told my friend he played it wrong, but now he said he's just gonna fly around a Daemon prince all game to keep the grimoire on him. Soo, not quite sure if that helps any.

Not the worst idea on his part, but if he does this, make damn sure he abides by the swooping MC movement rules, a minimum move and restricted turn + needing to stay in range to use the Grimoire won't be crippling, but it will certainly inhibit his mobility, and as a consequence will allow you to better anticipate where the Thirster is headed and react accordingly.

**ZebioLizard2**

Azreal13 wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
I'm all for the Bloodthirster having a S: D axe. First off it look amazing.

Second it gives Bloodthirsters a close combat ability like none (re most) other- Ya know they way they are supposed to be.

I find it somewhat amusing that a Necron player is complaining about how hard it is to kill a model (which these new rules have done nothing to the Bloodthirster durability wise).

Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

I get that. But they really aren't that durable. Not being able to Grimoire yourself makes it almost impossible for him to get that 3++. Additionally there is a 1/3 chance that his invulnerable save will get even worse when using it.

Chaos had no reliable answer to things like Knights and Wraithknights and Riptides (okay regular 'Thirsters could do it but for the sake of the argument...) before this guy. I really like that the Bloodthirster has become an ultimate close combat unit- again like it should be. The fact that it took a S: D weapon to accomplish this is not ideal, but I'm all for the product that has resulted.

Well, I told my friend he played it wrong, but now he said he's just gonna fly around a Daemon prince all game to keep the grimoire on him. Soo, not quite sure if that helps any.

Not the worst idea on his part, but if he does this, make damn sure he abides by the swooping MC movement rules, a minimum move and restricted turn + needing to stay in range to use the Grimoire won't be crippling, but it will certainly inhibit his mobility, and as a consequence will allow you to better anticipate where the Thirster is headed and react accordingly.

That and you can simply throw firepower at the flying DP, potentially ground it and basically burn it down in a hail of gunfire.

**Psienesis**

Vaktathi wrote:

That said, I'm rather wary of the increasing amount of Strength D being introduced, that was supposed to be relegated to the most fearsome weapons of the absolute mightiest war machines, titan cannons and strategic weapons. Having it on an MC HQ makes me feel it's become a crutch gimmick.

So you don't consider the Greater Daemon of the Chaos God of Bloodshed, Warfare and Violence to be one of the most fearsome weapons and absolute mightiest of war machines?

Think about what a Bloodthirster is supposed to represent and then wonder why all of its attacks are not D-strength.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Hollismason wrote:
How'd you not kill it with Nightbringer.

I'm curious on this too. With the shooting attack, Gaze Of Death, and THEN striking first (with Fleshbane), it shouldn't have been that hard to put down. What's it got, like 5 wounds?

**morganfreeman**

krodarklorr wrote:

Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

As someone who's openly admitted to running Decurian stuff (sp) and loving it, I find it really hard to sympathize with you getting your gak kicked in by a super tough + killy model and crying foul.

I generally like your posts and all that, but I'm just saying that I've zero sympathy in this case.

**Dakkafang Dreggrim**

Ya a necron crying that something is hard to kill is funny.

Also I think necrons players are mad, something has S - D now and they don't get their RP vs it.

**luke1705**

I think that making it I1 is a good balance (and it also has to pay 25 points over a stock thirster to get that weapon, plus probably 20/40 points to get 1/2 greater rewards). At that point, it's a 315 point unit. Your 258 point squad of wraiths could still probably kill it, or at least tarpit it for some time

**krodarklorr**

morganfreeman wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:

Because before I could tarpit a blood thirster, even if it got lucky with greater rewards. Now, if it does get lucky, I can't tarpit it, and it will annihilate everything in its path, while still not dying.

As someone who's openly admitted to running Decurian stuff (sp) and loving it, I find it really hard to sympathize with you getting your gak kicked in by a super tough + killy model and crying foul.

I generally like your posts and all that, but I'm just saying that I've zero sympathy in this case.

Well, I appreciate it, and I don't blame you. However, I was under a false assumption of how the grimoire worked, and that does help the situation quite a bit. Now my friend will play it correctly, and with a little bit of luck, it shouldn't be too much of an issue from here on out.

**Talon of Anathrax**

CrownAxe wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Keep in mind that it doesn't help that you're running an army that is hard-countered by getting assaulted, and for which Strength D is a hard counter to all your best abilities.

That is completely true. But if he wasn't grimoired (Which apparently was illegal) then he wouldn've died with little effort. I rolled two amazing Gaze of Death rolls, and had an entire unit of Lychguard and the Nightbringer swing in CC against him, and at the end of the game he still had 3 wounds left....It's the issue of the survivability AND the Strength D that was an issue.

Bloodthirsters aren't inherently survivable. They have to make their stuff survivable to make them work and it's not reliable.

The grimoire has to be carried by someone else so that is a minimum of 75 points plus the unit to hide that herald in. Kill that and it loses the 3++. Also the grimoire only works on a d6 roll of 3+. If that is failed then the Boodthirster reduces it's invul to 6++.

The 4+ FNP is randomly determined at the start of each game. Its a 1/6 chance for each greater reward (which is a max of 2 on a BT). It can also get +1 Wound or rerollable Invul saves but 1/2 of the results do nothing to increase it's durability. The 4+ FNP is the only absurdly good one but its only a 30% chance of getting in with two Greater rewards.

It's a lot of work to make the D-thrister not die before it get's to kill something and it's not even reliable.

Can't you just cast Endurance and Invisibility on him (+ cursed earth if your placement is good), and watch him wreck face reliably?

**Robisagg**

I'd just bring belakor along for the ride. Have them jump in formation, belakor casts shrouding for 2+ jinks all around, and then invis as necessary. Bealkor would be a CSM ally, and I'd have someone toting the grimoire. 2+ jink/3+/3++ possibly being hit on 6s? Yes please.

**CrownAxe**

Talon of Anathrax wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Keep in mind that it doesn't help that you're running an army that is hard-countered by getting assaulted, and for which Strength D is a hard counter to all your best abilities.

That is completely true. But if he wasn't grimoired (Which apparently was illegal) then he wouldn've died with little effort. I rolled two amazing Gaze of Death rolls, and had an entire unit of Lychguard and the Nightbringer swing in CC against him, and at the end of the game he still had 3 wounds left....It's the issue of the survivability AND the Strength D that was an issue.

Bloodthirsters aren't inherently survivable. They have to make their stuff survivable to make them work and it's not reliable.

The grimoire has to be carried by someone else so that is a minimum of 75 points plus the unit to hide that herald in. Kill that and it loses the 3++. Also the grimoire only works on a d6 roll of 3+. If that is failed then the Boodthirster reduces it's invul to 6++.

The 4+ FNP is randomly determined at the start of each game. Its a 1/6 chance for each greater reward (which is a max of 2 on a BT). It can also get +1 Wound or rerollable Invul saves but 1/2 of the results do nothing to increase it's durability. The 4+ FNP is the only absurdly good one but its only a 30% chance of getting in with two Greater rewards.

It's a lot of work to make the D-thrister not die before it get's to kill something and it's not even reliable.

Can't you just cast Endurance and Invisibility on him (+ cursed earth if your placement is good), and watch him wreck face reliably?

and how many points does it cost to get those powers? To get invis you have to spend 350 on belakor and around 300 on a DP or some nurgle heralds just to roll for endurance.

That's the issue with bloodthirsters. They are initially too fragile but the work it takes to get them to combat is either expensive or unreliable

**krodarklorr**

CrownAxe wrote:
and how many points does it cost to get those powers? To get invis you have to spend 350 on belakor and around 300 on a DP or some nurgle heralds just to roll for endurance.

That's the issue with bloodthirsters. They are initially too fragile but the work it takes to get them to combat is either expensive or unreliable

That is one thing that annoys me with this game, is the fact that that is technically allowed, and possible though. What can you do against that? Pretty much nothing, besides play to objectives and hope you have a fast army to get away from them.

**jy2**

krodarklorr wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
and how many points does it cost to get those powers? To get invis you have to spend 350 on belakor and around 300 on a DP or some nurgle heralds just to roll for endurance.

That's the issue with bloodthirsters. They are initially too fragile but the work it takes to get them to combat is either expensive or unreliable

That is one thing that annoys me with this game, is the fact that that is technically allowed, and possible though. What can you do against that? Pretty much nothing, besides play to objectives and hope you have a fast army to get away from them.

Ignore it and kill off the unit without Invisibility or not Grimoire'd.

Going after the hardest-to-kill unit in the army is what will lose you the game.

**krodarklorr**

jy2 wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
and how many points does it cost to get those powers? To get invis you have to spend 350 on belakor and around 300 on a DP or some nurgle heralds just to roll for endurance.

That's the issue with bloodthirsters. They are initially too fragile but the work it takes to get them to combat is either expensive or unreliable

That is one thing that annoys me with this game, is the fact that that is technically allowed, and possible though. What can you do against that? Pretty much nothing, besides play to objectives and hope you have a fast army to get away from them.

Ignore it and kill off the unit without Invisibility or not Grimoire'd.

Going after the hardest-to-kill unit in the army is what will lose you the game.

That is completely true. However, a Grimoired Destroyer weapon Bloodthirster isn't going to just sit around and let me kill the rest of his stuff. Plus, you know, the whole not being able to tarpit him effectively.

**jy2**

He moves up Turn 1. He won't be able to assault until at least Turn 2, and that is if he doesn't fly on Turn 1. Thus, you can shoot at him normally T1 or you won't be assaulted until Turn 3. Assuming he assaults on T2, that means by Turn 5, he can only kill maybe 4 units at most, and that is assuming you don't throw fearless units into him like wraiths, which could tie him up for even longer.

Thus, run MSU with lots of units and you will be fine, even if he kills 1 unit a turn (starting from T2). Against "deathstar" type armies/units, running multiple smaller units is the way to go.

**dragoonmaster101**

OH NO Chaos got something that is slightly better than all of the other races. EVERYBODY GRAB OUT THE NERF HAMMERS. We can't let those Khorne worshiping toasters have any fun WHAT SO EVER! Why would we ever want CSM melee to have any competitive value!

**Vaktathi**

Psienesis wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:

That said, I'm rather wary of the increasing amount of Strength D being introduced, that was supposed to be relegated to the most fearsome weapons of the absolute mightiest war machines, titan cannons and strategic weapons. Having it on an MC HQ makes me feel it's become a crutch gimmick.

So you don't consider the Greater Daemon of the Chaos God of Bloodshed, Warfare and Violence to be one of the most fearsome weapons and absolute mightiest of war machines?

Think about what a Bloodthirster is supposed to represent and then wonder why all of its attacks are not D-strength.

On something like An'ggrath? Sure, no problem with that, but even he doesn't get a D strength weapon.

Most Bloodthirsters are nowhere near his power, they're big and scary and killy and terrifying, but not in the same way that An'ggrath or strategic level artillery is.

**Experiment 626**

Vaktathi wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:

That said, I'm rather wary of the increasing amount of Strength D being introduced, that was supposed to be relegated to the most fearsome weapons of the absolute mightiest war machines, titan cannons and strategic weapons. Having it on an MC HQ makes me feel it's become a crutch gimmick.

So you don't consider the Greater Daemon of the Chaos God of Bloodshed, Warfare and Violence to be one of the most fearsome weapons and absolute mightiest of war machines?

Think about what a Bloodthirster is supposed to represent and then wonder why all of its attacks are not D-strength.
On something like An'ggrath? Sure, no problem with that, but even he doesn't get a D strength weapon.

Most Bloodthirsters are nowhere near his power, they're big and scary and killy and terrifying, but not in the same way that An'ggrath or strategic level artillery is.

C'mon, he's perpetually swinging at I1! Just don't throw a bunch of power fists at him.

dragoonmaster101 wrote:
OH NO Chaos got something that is slightly better than all of the other races. EVERYBODY GRAB OUT THE NERF HAMMERS. We can't let those Khorne worshiping toasters have any fun WHAT SO EVER! Why would we ever want CSM melee to have any competitive value!

Welcome to the world of Daemon hate... We have t-shirts.

**luke1705**

An'ggrath would be way too good with str D, assuming he went at initiative. He also already has str D stomps, so unless he is going against another GC or an IK, he already is going to mop up everything. With str D at initiative, he would literally murder everything he touches. As is, he already kills everything except an equivalent points value of properly kitted out Grey Knights

**Vaktathi**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:

That said, I'm rather wary of the increasing amount of Strength D being introduced, that was supposed to be relegated to the most fearsome weapons of the absolute mightiest war machines, titan cannons and strategic weapons. Having it on an MC HQ makes me feel it's become a crutch gimmick.

So you don't consider the Greater Daemon of the Chaos God of Bloodshed, Warfare and Violence to be one of the most fearsome weapons and absolute mightiest of war machines?

Think about what a Bloodthirster is supposed to represent and then wonder why all of its attacks are not D-strength.
On something like An'ggrath? Sure, no problem with that, but even he doesn't get a D strength weapon.

Most Bloodthirsters are nowhere near his power, they're big and scary and killy and terrifying, but not in the same way that An'ggrath or strategic level artillery is.

C'mon, he's perpetually swinging at I1! Just don't throw a bunch of power fists at him.

There's a good number of instances where I1 won't really make much of a difference. Being able to walk into a vehicle squadron and auto-delete the entire thing once you make base contact will be pretty absurd.

That said, it's also more just an issue of scale and power creep more than anything else. D weapons used to be relegated to rare superheavy war machines with immensely powerful cannons, and is now being applied to progressively smaller and lighter units.

**Ignatius**

Vaktathi wrote:
There's a good number of instances where I1 won't really make much of a difference. Being able to walk into a vehicle squadron and auto-delete the entire thing once you make base contact will be pretty absurd.

Well what was it like before? We had a 300 point unit that could grind through most units in the game, then have to sit there scratching his head when he walked up to a Land Raider. Now, he can do something to them like he should be able to.

I will give you that it's going to get obnoxious when he finds himself in contact with a squad of three Russes but that's a fairly specific example. I guess they are just going to be good against them from now on.

**Vaktathi**

Ignatius wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
There's a good number of instances where I1 won't really make much of a difference. Being able to walk into a vehicle squadron and auto-delete the entire thing once you make base contact will be pretty absurd.

Well what was it like before? We had a 300 point unit that could grind through most units in the game, then have to sit there scratching his head when he walked up to a Land Raider. Now, he can do something to them like he should be able to.

There's a difference between "doing something" and "auto-deleting". With 7 attacks on a charge, a 275pt Bloodthirster with a Strength D weapon is on average going to inflict 13 or 14 hull points, regardless of AV. Unless you're diving him into something like a Knight that's going to hit him with D attacks back at higher initiative, there's probably not a whole lot most things are going to be able to do about it (and even then, the 275pt BT is much more likely to defeat the 375pt Knight than vice versa)..

I will give you that it's going to get obnoxious when he finds himself in contact with a squad of three Russes but that's a fairly specific example. I guess they are just going to be good against them from now on.

Yes, they certainly will, and I see that as a problem when something will reliably inflict enough HP damage on a unit to kill anything short of a Reaver Titan for 275pts.

**Ignatius**

Vaktathi wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
There's a good number of instances where I1 won't really make much of a difference. Being able to walk into a vehicle squadron and auto-delete the entire thing once you make base contact will be pretty absurd.

Well what was it like before? We had a 300 point unit that could grind through most units in the game, then have to sit there scratching his head when he walked up to a Land Raider. Now, he can do something to them like he should be able to.
There's a difference between "doing something" and "auto-deleting". With 7 attacks on a charge, a 275pt Bloodthirster with a Strength D weapon is on average going to inflict 13 or 14 hull points, regardless of AV. Unless you're diving him into something like a Knight that's going to hit him with D attacks back at higher initiative, there's probably not a whole lot most things are going to be able to do about it (and even then, the 275pt BT is much more likely to defeat the 375pt Knight than vice versa.

True, but you have to get him there. The durability, shooting power, invulnerable, and higher initiative probably make up the points difference between the two. A T6 5W 3+ Monstrous creature is a little easier to kill than the AV 13 super heavy walker.

**Vaktathi**

Isn't the BT a FMC? As such, he's largely invulnerable turn 1 unless you've got some serious AA to force a whole bunch of saves or get particularly lucky (entirely possible, but unlikely), you'll really only have one round to engage him before he gets stuck into something.

**Myliel**

Yeah the problem isn't just the strength D by itself, it's the strength combined with the number of attacks, seriously can erase a unit per turn against most units, scarier than a knight imho.

**Ignatius**

Vaktathi wrote:
Isn't the BT a FMC? As such, he's largely invulnerable turn 1 unless you've got some serious AA to force a whole bunch of saves or get particularly lucky (entirely possible, but unlikely), you'll really only have one round to engage him before he gets stuck into something.

Yes he is a FMC. Of course that either means first turn he'll be on the ground where you can shoot him if you go first, he will be in reserves to swoop on later, or he will fly forward if your opponent has first turn but will still have to wait a turn after landing before charging. There isn't a scenario where he isn't on the ground for at least a turn (unless you shoot him down in front of your lines but fail to kill him).

I get that strength D is immensely powerful. I get he has a lot of attacks. I also get that he is in a lackluster army that doesn't support him very well (mostly, unless you're running fatey/DP with a grimoire, at which point the combo becomes hugely expensive) and has absolutely no range threat period.

**Vaktathi**

I understand he has no ranged threat and that there are some issues with how he starts. A lot of armies won't care because they won't have anything where high S and AP2 wouldn't do the same thing anyway (e.g. a marine battle company).

I just think that the diffusion of Strength D down to this level, and the potential of this unit to successfully destroy and engage units of far greater value than him in a single round of close combat, is excessive. Will it come into play every game? No. But that doesn't mean it can't still be more than a wee bit excessive.